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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

Soft Hands

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27 Dec 2020
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Bolton
Terminated at Parbold 91 mins late. Bet the passengers were livid!
Third day 421 has entered service in the morning. Third day it has failed to last through to the end of the day. Do Northern forward all the delay repay claims direct to Porterbrook I wonder? Utterly comical, unless you have the misfortune to commute using the Wigan to Southport line.
 
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Soft Hands

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Northern need to give up at this point....
Three 769's are already back from expensive C6 overhauls. Five still to go. Porterbrook simply would not be funding C6's unless they had guarantees of "lengthy" future leases being in the pipeline, surely? The best use for 421 and 452 would be as "christmas trees" to try and improve the reliability of the rest of the fleet. The "politics" of binning "hybrid" traction seems to overrule the need to provide a reliable service to passengers.
 

david l

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27 Dec 2016
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Wigan
Just 434, 450 and 456 out today. Pretty poor out of 10 sets that should be available.
No 769's started the day from AN (normally 2 sets) so everything there must be demic. The 2 sets from AN today were 2 car 150's so 2 shortforms straightaway. 769434 started from SP and 769450 from NH, whilst 769456 appears to have started from Wigan Wallgate CS (not a normal start point).
 

Mollman

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Three 769's are already back from expensive C6 overhauls. Five still to go. Porterbrook simply would not be funding C6's unless they had guarantees of "lengthy" future leases being in the pipeline, surely? The best use for 421 and 452 would be as "christmas trees" to try and improve the reliability of the rest of the fleet. The "politics" of binning "hybrid" traction seems to overrule the need to provide a reliable service to passengers.
And the issue of what you would replace them with.
 

Nym

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The HV (high voltage) subsystem on the /9s is far more complicated due to reinstating the dual voltage capability.
It's not High Voltage in spite of what AdTranz and BR think. The IEC define what high voltage is and the 319/769/768 only very really slightly sneaks into it at 1056V AC on the main rectifier when in AC mode and with 27.5kV on the OLE.

Most "High Voltage" is in fact not, it's Low Voltage and should be referred to as either "Unprotected Traction Supply", "Traction Supply" or "Traction Auxiliary Supply" depending on the loads and protective device characteristics.

And in reality the former two are not that much more complicated than a 769/0 or /4.

I am of course excluding cables on the actual HV side of the main transformer.

EDIT:
The only part that is actually high voltage at any time is the main transformer secondary on S1, S2 and S3 until the main rectifier, then it would be rectified (assuming perfect rectification on zero load) to 1493V, so by that logic, the "HV" system, what little of it there is, is exactly the same on all Class 319 derivatives.
 
Last edited:

507016

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25 Feb 2024
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Liverpool
Its a pity tfw never thought to keep the pantographs when they wanted the 769s, I thought having them up north on the lime street - chester services would suit them perfectly. Lime street - runcorn AC and Runcorn - Chester Diesel. Id say wasted opportunity but seeing how they ended up performing when in cardiff it might have been a bad idea
 

Wyrleybart

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Just 434, 450 and 456 out today. Pretty poor out of 10 sets that should be available.
To be entirely correct the two ex TfW units should be replacing two NT 769s whilst away for overhaul, so Northern should have a full complement of eight 769/4s to diagram., presumably daily diagrams for six ?
 

david l

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To be entirely correct the two ex TfW units should be replacing two NT 769s whilst away for overhaul, so Northern should have a full complement of eight 769/4s to diagram., presumably daily diagrams for six ?
There is only 1 unit booked to be away at once, 769458 being currently at Brodies.
 

thealexweb

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5 Jan 2014
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And the issue of what you would replace them with.

TFW 158s are going off-lease from next year. All 769 trained crews at Wigan/Victoria are already 158 trained and 158 already route cleared through to Southport. Could be a relatively simple rollout no?

Northern should not have to be doing this so many years in but the 769 project clearly isn’t working. Have we ever encountered a stock with a worse availability for such a prolonged period.
 

Gricer99

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21 Jun 2020
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Hindley
452 is out again today. It made Oxford Road only 5 minutes late and the return trip to Southport appears to be running to time at Bolton. Could it finally be fixed?
442, 448, 450 and 456 are also rostered today.
 

david l

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27 Dec 2016
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Wigan
TFW 158s are going off-lease from next year. All 769 trained crews at Wigan/Victoria are already 158 trained and 158 already route cleared through to Southport. Could be a relatively simple rollout no?

Northern should not have to be doing this so many years in but the 769 project clearly isn’t working. Have we ever encountered a stock with a worse availability for such a prolonged period.
Possibly not, but somehow the £100m+ that was managed to be spent on electrifying Lostock Junction to Wigan North Western has to be justified by using it! No sign as yet of a re-cast service using electric from Stalybridge-Wigan NW on the 6 day railway that we have from Northern in these parts, and no sign of what a re-jigged Southport service (half hourly at present) will look like. 769's in any event also don't bother on a Sunday.
 

pokemonsuper9

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If there were trains running via Westhoughton on Sundays, the 769s wouldn't even need to change from Electric all day, since the Sunday schedule had trains going into Wigan North Western
 

david l

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27 Dec 2016
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Wigan
If there were trains running via Westhoughton on Sundays, the 769s wouldn't even need to change from Electric all day, since the Sunday schedule had trains going into Wigan North Western
Exactly the point, there hasn't been a train service from Bolton via Westhoughton to Wigan NW or Wallgate or beyond on a Sunday for many, many months since before last Christmas. The Southport service should be from Blackburn, but under the 'emergency timetable' from before last Christmas is reduced to 2 hourly from Manchester Vic (and even that is 'hit and miss' )dependant on conductors making themselves available. Little or no progress on this one, even TfGM have gone on radio silence. Wires simply not used on a Sunday.
 

Geeves

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And the issue of what you would replace them with.

On the refurb thread you can see there's probably ten units out of use currently stoped for various life extension works. Once those are back I'm sure you could happily park the 769s but then of course as others have said you've nothing using the wires.
 

david l

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27 Dec 2016
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Wigan
On the refurb thread you can see there's probably ten units out of use currently stoped for various life extension works. Once those are back I'm sure you could happily park the 769s but then of course as others have said you've nothing using the wires.
Once these units are back there are plenty more to go for corrosion repairs/refurbishment though.
Sensible thing would be to run a Stalybridge-Wigan NW train all week, even short term using 769 units totally on electric, replacing the Leeds-Wigan service between Manchester and Wigan (something that was proposed for next tt change some tt changes ago). Then leave the Blackburn-Headbolt Lane (via Atherton) alone, and shift the Southport services, one still to go via Bolton (769), and one via Atherton (diesel) - this maintains the 4 trains per hour between Wigan and Manchester, but - even though the journey times are ridiculously slow, much slower than BR days as virtually all trains these days are all stations.
 

T74

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12 Aug 2019
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The Welsh 150s. Overhaul them instead of the 769s. I doubt they are any more rusty than the other 150s that are being overhauled, or the 769s.
I’ve said before the 4 156s stored at Ely would have Been better than the 769s . Yeh it’s been said they are rust buckets but some of the 156s northern got from emr were stripped to shells and rebuilt so why can’t those at Ely .
 

D365

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I’ve said before the 4 156s stored at Ely would have Been better than the 769s . Yeh it’s been said they are rust buckets but some of the 156s northern got from emr were stripped to shells and rebuilt so why can’t those at Ely .
You’ve answered your own question.
 

Gricer99

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21 Jun 2020
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Hindley
Looks like 769 452 made it through the day with flying colours until the last trip from Southport to Wigan. Something happened ag Burscough Bridge to delay it by 14 minutes.
it
made it to Wallgate 16 mins late.
I was on 448 this evening and one of the doors at the front seemed to be sticking during opening.
 

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