Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[AM9]

Plenty of EMUs coming out of service and going for scrap or storage. The industry should be looking at batteries in the medium term with a long term strategy for electrification. Funny how the Scottish have already planned it on their albeit significantly smaller network.

Planning it is one thing, doing it is another. Then of course there's the hydrogen nutters. Whatever new (system) technology is used, there will be teething troubles in development.

 

[D9006]

Not a good start, as a fan of this project , even I’m getting frustrated at seeing this on a more regular occasions now

 

[Phillipimo]

Recent train times allows you to see the performance of services over a long period. I've attached a screenshot of Southport to Alderley Edge services. Statistics are for the last 4 weeks and over a week of services are displayed. Of course it could always be better but the trains do seem to work alright.

Edited to add Southport to Stalybridge screenshot too.

 

[507020]

Recent train times allows you to see the performance of services over a long period. I've attached a screenshot of Southport to Alderley Edge services. Statistics are for the last 4 weeks and over a week of services are displayed. Of course it could always be better but the trains do seem to work alright.

Edited to add Southport to Stalybridge screenshot too.

It’s interesting that the services at certain times of day have never been more than 5 minutes late, however I’ve always suspected that most of the problems with the 769s have occurred when travelling in the opposite direction, towards Southport after leaving the electrified section at Bolton, rather than travelling towards it.

 

[Phillipimo]

It’s interesting that the services at certain times of day have never been more than 5 minutes late, however I’ve always suspected that most of the problems with the 769s have occurred when travelling in the opposite direction, towards Southport after leaving the electrified section at Bolton, rather than travelling towards it.

I just checked and I think you might be right!

 

[AM9]

It’s interesting that the services at certain times of day have never been more than 5 minutes late, however I’ve always suspected that most of the problems with the 769s have occurred when travelling in the opposite direction, towards Southport after leaving the electrified section at Bolton, rather than travelling towards it.

Which is a useful observation and if those managing their introduction are using failure pattern information like for removing bugs, we should see incremental improvements in their reliability in service. Those that see each 769 failure as a random event and then rush to repeat their earlier complaints like a broken record should note the contents of this post.

 

[Phillipimo]

For completeness here are the stats for serviced heading the opposite direction.

Alderley Edge to Southport seems to be a weakness.

 

[Bikeman78]

Plenty of EMUs coming out of service and going for scrap or storage. The industry should be looking at batteries in the medium term with a long term strategy for electrification. Funny how the Scottish have already planned it on their albeit significantly smaller network.

If they'd carried on putting wires up after the Bolton route they could be running 319s or 321s on more routes by now thus freeing up DMUs for Cardiff. No 769s required. Yes I know hindsight is wonderful but wiring urban networks such as Manchester is a no brainer.

 

[Class360/1]

If they'd carried on putting wires up after the Bolton route they could be running 319s or 321s on more routes by now thus freeing up DMUs for Cardiff. No 769s required. Yes I know hindsight is wonderful but wiring urban networks such as Manchester is a no brainer.

I agree. Just think about all the DMUs being replaced if all the Manchester suburban lines were electrified

 

[Gricer99]

What the tables don’t show is the units being used. How many of them were 769s and how many were 150 or 156s.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Is one diagram booked double diesel or did I just "get lucky" a few weeks ago because so much stock was spare due to the reduced frequencies?

 

[Halish Railway]

Is one diagram booked double diesel or did I just "get lucky" a few weeks ago because so much stock was spare due to the reduced frequencies?

Yes as the 769s ordered for Northern in 2016/2017 were only intended to work Wigan NW to Stalybridge/Alderley Edge services. Running these services out to Southport is a December 2019 innovation in response to criticism from Sandgrounders that they had no direct service to the Castlefield corridor.

 

[Gricer99]

Another day of late running on SoP -ALD. Seems to be a common thing still.

 

[CHAPS2034]

Another day of late running on SoP -ALD. Seems to be a common thing still.

How much of that was waiting for a new crew as most of the long delays were at Oxford Rd? Other delays were a handful of minutes; easily accrued on any service.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Today's announcement about electrification to Wigan North Western might cause a little shuffling around of these things, but just a pity the electrification team in the northwest wasn't disbanded, this would have been completed by now.

 

[AMD]

Another day of late running on SoP -ALD. Seems to be a common thing still.

I worked three different 769s yesterday and they were all fine. The usual problems struck though - both times on my way into Manchester I was late due to freight coming off the CLC line at Castlefield and once was held at Lostock Jct for a late TPE.

 

[175001]

The last ALD-SOP was only delayed due to a taxi..

 

[Gricer99]

I worked three different 769s yesterday and they were all fine. The usual problems struck though - both times on my way into Manchester I was late due to freight coming off the CLC line at Castlefield and once was held at Lostock Jct for a late TPE.

Thanks for the perspective. Has the panto down reset issue been solved now?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2021 ==

Looks like the 769s will only be a stopgap before we get some second hand electric trains!

Green light for £78m Wigan to Bolton rail electrification

Transport for the North welcomes green light for £78m electrification of Wigan to Bolton rail line.

www.infrastructure-intelligence.com

 

[507020]

Looks like the 769s will only be a stopgap before we get some second hand electric trains!

No it doesn’t. There’s no mention of electrifying Wigan - Southport, so this further cements the 769s position. They will just do their power changeover somewhere else.

 

[prod_pep]

There’s no mention of electrifying Wigan - Southport, so this further cements the 769s position.

I'm far from convinced it does. They could easily divert the Southport services via Atherton and return it to DMUs, allowing EMUs on Wigan - South Manchester through runs.

 

[Purple Orange]

I'm far from convinced it does. They could easily divert the Southport services via Atherton and return it to DMUs, allowing EMUs on Wigan - South Manchester through runs.

Exactly. In fact it wasn’t that long ago that the service was just a morning peak from Alderley Edge to Bolton and then it was extended to Wigan, and then again to Southport.

 

[507020]

Exactly. In fact it wasn’t that long ago that the service was just a morning peak from Alderley Edge to Bolton and then it was extended to Wigan, and then again to Southport.

Southport to Alderley Edge is just stupid and I doubt anyone actually uses it to travel the whole way between the two. I wouldn’t miss it at all if it was cut back to Wigan North Western, Bolton or even the main shed at Piccadilly.

I'm far from convinced it does. They could easily divert the Southport services via Atherton and return it to DMUs, allowing EMUs on Wigan - South Manchester through runs.

I do think Southport services are better running via Bolton than via Atherton, as long as they don’t have to serve Moses Gate, Farnworth, Kearsley or Clifton. That’s if they’ve got DMUs though. I think they should really reform some more 150s or 158s as 3 cars and keep the 769s.

 

[Purple Orange]

Southport to Alderley Edge is just stupid and I doubt anyone actually uses it to travel the whole way between the two. I wouldn’t miss it at all if it was cut back to Wigan North Western, Bolton or even the main shed at Piccadilly.

Yeah I agree. All WCML services from the Crewe & Stoke lines should terminate in the main Piccadilly shed in my opinion. Have the services coming through Hazel Grove and from the Airport running through Oxford Rd and onwards.

 

[D9006]

Well, let’s see how today goes, all 5 diagrams showing on Alderley Edge to Southport are 769s, plus one on Stalybridge to Southport, we start with 6 let’s see how it finishes

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Sep 2021 ==

No it doesn’t. There’s no mention of electrifying Wigan - Southport, so this further cements the 769s position. They will just do their power changeover somewhere else.

Another point is it’s in to north western not wallgate that electric services will operate too, as article says

 

[AM9]

Another point is it’s in to north western not wallgate that electric services will operate too, as article says

But a 769 (maybe other bi-modes will be available by then) would be able to raise it's pantograph once it was under the OLE on it's way towards Ince. It has been said here that the 769s can do this on the move, but even if it was decided not to, the practice of swithchover is done on the West London Line by class 378s all the time.

 

[Greybeard33]

But a 769 (maybe other bi-modes will be available by then) would be able to raise it's pantograph once it was under the OLE on it's way towards Ince. It has been said here that the 769s can do this on the move, but even if it was decided not to, the practice of swithchover is done on the West London Line by class 378s all the time.

The electrification project includes platform lengthening to enable 6-car EMUs to be used on the Manchester to Wigan NW via Bolton route. That would be pointless if it were planned that 4-car 769s will continue to work the services on the line.

I imagine that Northern will be only too glad to bin off its micro fleet of 8 769s and replace them by more surplus 323s from the West Midlands.

 

[AM9]

The electrification project includes platform lengthening to enable 6-car EMUs to be used on the Manchester to Wigan NW via Bolton route. That would be pointless if it were planned that 4-car 769s will continue to work the services on the line.

I imagine that Northern will be only too glad to bin off its micro fleet of 8 769s and replace them by more surplus 323s from the West Midlands.

323s won't get up much speed between Wigan (either NW or Wallgate) and Southport. Note that @507020 and @D9006 were both talking about 769s, not 323s. As their reliability is improving I imagine that the 769s will be in full service for about 5 years, Northern don't have any other bi-modes and I think that the experience form the flex program will ultimately result in a specification for new bi-mode trains that will then replace the current units.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Well, let’s see how today goes, all 5 diagrams showing on Alderley Edge to Southport are 769s, plus one on Stalybridge to Southport, we start with 6 let’s see how it finishes

Not 6/6! One failed at Wigan so one of my potential trains home is yet again 2-car

 

[Greybeard33]

323s won't get up much speed between Wigan (either NW or Wallgate) and Southport. Note that @507020 and @D9006 were both talking about 769s, not 323s. As their reliability is improving I imagine that the 769s will be in full service for about 5 years, Northern don't have any other bi-modes and I think that the experience form the flex program will ultimately result in a specification for new bi-mode trains that will then replace the current units.

Southport services will likely be operated as extensions of the DMU services to Wigan via the Atherton line, as they were prior to the 2019 timetable change. These services are from Leeds via the Calder Valley and from Blackburn via Burnley and Todmorden. 769s would be unsuitable for these long, hilly, unelectrified routes and in any case the cost of additional driver traction training for such a small fleet would be prohibitive.

 

[david l]

The electrification project includes platform lengthening to enable 6-car EMUs to be used on the Manchester to Wigan NW via Bolton route. That would be pointless if it were planned that 4-car 769s will continue to work the services on the line.

I imagine that Northern will be only too glad to bin off its micro fleet of 8 769s and replace them by more surplus 323s from the West Midlands.

I don't know whether it's just spin but platform lengthening isn't needed at Ince, Hindley or Westhoughton. What is needed is removal of all the undergrowth/grass/weeds/trees or general debris that is on the existing platforms beyond that which is in use (and extension of lighting).
Indeed, the shortest platform may well be Wigan North Western No.1 after all this (assuming that Wallgate isn't wired), as No. 3 at North Western can't be lengthened (again) and No. 2 is fenced off/no points. Might need something else for contingency if so many 'Lanky' trains get sent into North Western which leaves nothing spare at North Western if any WCML problems........bring back the old loop platforms 9 & 10!