Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[swissrailpassion]

Quote The first units will be in passenger service with Northern by spring 2018 and from then on will be available to a wide range of operators who will be able to make full use of electrically powered rolling stock on partially electrified routes. End

So this innovative solution is presented as exciting when the truth is the electrification has descended into farce. I look out for the BBC news and the Times to report that the entire NR electrification scheme is in tatters and I see nothing.
The word Windermere tipified the problems of electrification in the 70s, the problems of fleet renewal in the 80s, the Labour inertia and privatisation chaos of the nineties, the incompetence of the SRA in the noughties and now the total failure of NR and the DfT to align and prioritise projects. Roger Ford has said it before, but one word - Windermere - continues to show the limitations of the British railway system. Throughout all this one thing has remained constant - the DfT. Say no more.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Everything underneath except the few shoe fuses is required even when the shoes are removed. I've mentioned to you before that removal of DC capability does not magically produce any significant space, why keep asking?

Where did I mention in that post removing the DC capability?:roll:

 

[northwichcat]

Apparently there's going to be a rival product from another ROSCO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apparently there's going to be a rival product from another ROSCO.

317 maybe?


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[Clip]

If you want additional bi-modes available for service before the December 2019 deadline converting existing EMU carriages probably is the only option. Hitachi only managed to promise 2019 for new build for TPE so any further sets would likely have to be 2020 or later while I don't think Stadler have promised delivery of all the bi-modes for Anglia before 2020 and they've also now got the Merseyrail contract to deliver.

Why all this talk about Northern having these Bi-Modes? Didnt the ITT for the franchise rule out any of these vehicles as you and others repeatedly pointed out in the D230 thread?

You seem awfully keen on these 'London cast offs' being converted and for use with Northern dont you.

 

[D365]

Where did I mention in that post removing the DC capability?:roll:

You asked about equipment under the solebar, I think the fact that it is there gives a pretty good clue as to whether or not it is needed.
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317 maybe?

Angel Trains don't have a great track record for innovation imo.

 

[northwichcat]

317 maybe?

Or 321s or 365s?

 

[swt_passenger]

Where did I mention in that post removing the DC capability?:roll:

You mentioned you'd seen units with the shoes removed, and asked if there might be other equipment underneath that might not be required, so I drew the obvious conclusion. Porterbrook have said the new alternators will feed into the existing DC bus, and I was just re-emphasising that there is not really any other "DC equipment" that can be removed.

 

[Sparks807Evo]

Innovative project and certainly a move by Porterbrook to make them leasable. Aside from the opporunity at Northern, it'd be a good opportunity for the 171s to be replaced at Southern...

 

[northwichcat]

Innovative project and certainly a move by Porterbrook to make them leasable. Aside from the opporunity at Northern, it'd be a good opportunity for the 171s to be replaced at Southern...

To me the article reads like Northern will take on the demonstration units but the real intended clients are other TOCs. It could be the demonstration units will be the 319s which Northern are intending to only lease until 2020.

 

[43096]

Or 321s or 365s?

I can't see how it could work on 365s as the two driving coaches have the traction equipment. The ex-BR 317-322 series have the advantage of one motor coach, so less kit under the other three vehicles.

 

[bramling]

I can't see how it could work on 365s as the two driving coaches have the traction equipment. The ex-BR 317-322 series have the advantage of one motor coach, so less kit under the other three vehicles.

I can't see the point of hacking around with the 365. They will be accessibility compliant, as well as being an AC/DC EMU (okay the DC part is debateable) with relatively good performance and reliability characteristics. Someone is bound to lease them. Only 21 are going off-lease, whereas with something like the 321s there's the potential for a large number of conversions if the concept was to be successful.

 

[D60]

If another ROSCO is considering a similar conversion on another class.. what other works or suppliers might be in a position to undertake the work at present..?

 

[sk688]

a good opportunity for the 171s to be replaced at Southern...

Whats wrong with the 171s at Southern ? Plus isn't their coupling different , so not much use to other TOCs

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I can't see how it could work on 365s as the two driving coaches have the traction equipment. The ex-BR 317-322 series have the advantage of one motor coach, so less kit under the other three vehicles.

With a 365 the gensets would need to be under the trailers (with a busline to the motors added) or above the floor behind the cabs with the associated loss of seating capacity.

Whats wrong with the 171s at Southern ? Plus isn't their coupling different , so not much use to other TOCs

Couplers can be swapped out fairly easily, and this has already happened with Turbostars such as the 170/3s along with some of the original 171s which were delivered as 170s. Not to mention all of the early models of Electrostars for SN and SE.

 

[Sparks807Evo]

To me the article reads like Northern will take on the demonstration units but the real intended clients are other TOCs. It could be the demonstration units will be the 319s which Northern are intending to only lease until 2020.

Yeah very true; hopefully the Windermere line will eventually be electrified to at least sort that out at long last! Will be interesting who else could be interested - Wales could well need something with nothing still announced.

Whats wrong with the 171s at Southern ? Plus isn't their coupling different , so not much use to other TOCs

Nothing wrong at all - just the fact that it's wasteful for 171s running on diesel for long distances over the 3rd rail when a 319 'Flex' could eliminate that. The 171s would also be greatly appreciated at Cross Country for example, or Chiltern in the long term. Only issue would be the passenger environment on a 319 is a downgrade. Coupling can be swapped; as the SWT 170s demonstrated when converted.

Edit; just read in the other thread that 319s can't get down the Uckfield line anyway due to the Oxted tunnel, so perhaps not such a great idea!

 

[edwin_m]

With a 365 the gensets would need to be under the trailers (with a busline to the motors added) or above the floor behind the cabs with the associated loss of seating capacity.

The 365 presumably has a DC busline all the way through the unit to link the (former) shoes at either end. However one of the trailers carries the transformer so there is only one car with no major equipment under the floor, whereas the 319 has three.

 

[Rob T]

Just read in the other thread that 319s can't get down the Uckfield line anyway due to the Oxted tunnel, so perhaps not such a great idea!

I wonder what this actually means. Are they banned or have they just never been cleared? Or is this something that can never be resolved without great expense?

Otherwise, from the flexibility point of view, the 319 Flex would seem a good option.

 

[adamedwards]

Only issue would be the passenger environment on a 319 is a downgrade.

Renatus 319 with aircon and 2+2 seating plus Genset sounds like a winner to me.

Mind you if this is for Oxted, shouldn't we be looking at an engine mounted at floor level between the cab and the first set of doors in it's own compartment? So long as it makes a good thumping noise!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Renatus 319 with aircon and 2+2 seating plus Genset sounds like a winner to me.

Indeed, and if for longer-distance use the lack of window alignment would be partly solved by putting luggage racks next to some of the blank panels.

 

[bramling]

Whats wrong with the 171s at Southern ? Plus isn't their coupling different , so not much use to other TOCs

2-cars on Ashford-Brighton is woefully inadequate for much of the route at busy times, plus of course it's a diesel train operating a substantial distance over electrified route.

Meanwhile, the Uckfield line runs 10-car diesel trains which is pretty inefficient.

Of course in a perfect world both of these lines would have been electrified ages ago.

 

[507021]

Renatus 319 with aircon and 2+2 seating plus Genset sounds like a winner to me.

Agreed. I've always thought the 319s with a Renatus style overhaul would be a decent EMU, the ones Northern have at the moment are alright but they really do need air conditioning and better seats. I'm 5'9" and I find the seats on the 319s are too close to the floor, but other than those, I don't really have any complaints about them. I think bi-mode 319s are a great solution for Northern.

It'll be interesting to see if in time the existing 319 fleet at Northern is converted to bi-mode as well, but I guess only time will tell with that one.

 

[47802]

Renatus 319 with aircon and 2+2 seating plus Genset sounds like a winner to me.

Mind you if this is for Oxted, shouldn't we be looking at an engine mounted at floor level between the cab and the first set of doors in it's own compartment? So long as it makes a good thumping noise!

Well I suppose you can change the seating but as has already been stated adding aircon that's more power for the Diesel Generator's will have to supply and more weight, plus they are probably going to be on the underpowered side as it is so I doubt that will be happening

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well I suppose you can change the seating but as has already been stated adding aircon that's more power for the Diesel Generator's will have to supply

Sort-of. At speed, aircon can be more efficient than the breaks in the bodyside airflow for opening windows. That's one reason near all new stock has it.

 

[kevjs]

Well I suppose you can change the seating but as has already been stated adding aircon that's more power for the Diesel Generator's will have to supply and more weight, plus they are probably going to be on the underpowered side as it is so I doubt that will be happening

Could the AirCon not be linked to the power demands from the engine - i.e. in fan only mode under heavy acceleration and running at full power (if needed) when the train is at already speed and less power is needed? After all this is pretty much how air con units normally work, when high power is needed elsewhere you'd be doing just the same as when the air con thinks it's cool enough.

 

[47802]

Could the AirCon not be linked to the power demands from the engine - i.e. in fan only mode under heavy acceleration and running at full power (if needed) when the train is at already speed and less power is needed? After all this is pretty much how air con units normally work, when high power is needed elsewhere you'd be doing just the same as when the air con thinks it's cool enough.

Lets put it this way Porterbrooks main priority will be to make this thing work, do you think they will really be interested in the added complexity/cost/power/weight of adding Aircon, I seriously doubt it.

 

[Roast Veg]

If their D321 competition (and that's where my money is right now) offers renatus aircon, then porterbrook will be faced with either ensuring their lease costs significantly less or add aircon themselves.

 

[edwin_m]

If their D321 competition (and that's where my money is right now) offers renatus aircon, then porterbrook will be faced with either ensuring their lease costs significantly less or add aircon themselves.

That surely depends on the lease costs for the D321 conversion, if indeed that is what is being considered. Unlike the 319, a 321 probably needs new traction electronics to run in diesel mode as well as power cables through the unit, so it's probably a more expensive proposition to start with.

 

[Roast Veg]

I hadn't considered the increased complexity of the 321 engine addition actually. I suppose anything without a DC bus is probably a step change in complexity, which makes the 365 more likely if there's room. What exactly is under the trailer of a 365 unit at present?

 

[D365]

... which makes the 365 more likely if there's room.

I wouldn't think so, the traction equipment on a Class 365 is far more complex. One would think that they are more likely to be in demand as a straight EMU anyway.