Poor WCML Timetabling

[yorksrob]

Put aside for one minute the current problems with Avanti and TPE, isn't the timetable for the WCML a bit rubbish in the evenings ?

The last train South from Carlisle is at 20:04, which is earlier than the last train to Leeds at 20:15 !

Whilst 20:16 may be acceptable for a regional route, is it really adequate for an InterCity main line !

 

[Iskra]

Put aside for one minute the current problems with Avanti and TPE, isn't the timetable for the WCML a bit rubbish in the evenings ?

The last train South from Carlisle is at 20:04, which is earlier than the last train to Leeds at 20:15 !

Whilst 20:16 may be acceptable for a regional route, is it really adequate for an InterCity main line !

Between Lancaster and Glasgow, there is only Carlisle with a decent population and beyond Glasgow-Carlisle I can't see where the demand would come from?

It's not really a 'WCML issue' because from Lancaster Southwards, Northern provide a later service in an area of higher population density. I struggle to see an argument that Oxenholme-Penrith-Carlise warrants a better service on the quietest section of line in a sparsely populated area.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

The last train south to Crewe is at 21:25.

And I know the 20:04 goes via Birmingham New Street but considering its gets into London Euston at 01:17, I'm struggling to see where the market is for a later train considering the journey times involved.

And there is also a TPE 21:33 to Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[Iskra]

The last train south to Crewe is at 21:25.

And I know the 20:04 goes via Birmingham New Street but considering its gets into London Euston at 01:17, I'm struggling to see where the market is for a later train considering the journey times involved.

And there is also a TPE 21:33 to Manchester Piccadilly.

And the sleepers, if you're really desperate.

 

[Peter0124]

I'm sure there was also a TPE at 23.34 as far as Manchester Piccadilly, that originated in Edinburgh. Covid removed it ofc. Also the 23.10 from Man Airport to Carlisle, which covid also removed.

 

[yorksrob]

The last train south to Crewe is at 21:25.

And I know the 20:04 goes via Birmingham New Street but considering its gets into London Euston at 01:17, I'm struggling to see where the market is for a later train considering the journey times involved.

And there is also a TPE 21:33 to Manchester Piccadilly.

Apologies - I should have mentioned it's Saturday that's the particular problem.

All these weird and wonderful late night options don't exist.

 

[Iskra]

Apologies - I should have mentioned it's Saturday that's the particular problem.

Saturday is the quietest night of the week for travel outside of urban areas and it is very quiet on that particular corridor.

 

[yorksrob]

Between Lancaster and Glasgow, there is only Carlisle with a decent population and beyond Glasgow-Carlisle I can't see where the demand would come from?

It's not really a 'WCML issue' because from Lancaster Southwards, Northern provide a later service in an area of higher population density. I struggle to see an argument that Oxenholme-Penrith-Carlise warrants a better service on the quietest section of line in a sparsely populated area.

Surely it justifies a service later than 20:00.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2023 ==

Saturday is the quietest night of the week for travel outside of urban areas and it is very quiet on that particular corridor.

I'm not sure it is really, there are a lot of people travelling for leisure.

 

[Iskra]

Surely it justifies a service later than 20:00.

I’m not convinced, while at uni I worked at Forton services and then Burton In Kendal on the M6 and Saturday evenings were extremely quiet as most people are where they want to be at that point.

 

[yorksrob]

I’m not convinced, while at uni I worked at Forton services and then Burton In Kendal on the M6 and Saturday evenings were extremely quiet as most people are where they want to be at that point.

I'm not sure. You only have to look at the trans-pennine trains on a Saturday.

Did you go up in the tower btw ?

 

[Iskra]

I'm not sure. You only have to look at the trans-pennine trains on a Saturday.

Did you go up in the tower btw ?

Sadly, nobody is allowed up there. You can get some great views of the sunsets and the Lake District fells from the footbridge though.

 

[yorksrob]

Sadly, nobody is allowed up there. You can get some great views of the sunsets and the Lake District fells from the footbridge though.

That's a shame. Would have been a good staff perk !

 

[Bald Rick]

I’m not convinced, while at uni I worked at Forton services and then Burton In Kendal on the M6 and Saturday evenings were extremely quiet as most people are where they want to be at that point.

Agreed the M6 north of Preston is very, very quiet on a Saturday late evening.

Similarly, flights from Glasgow - London are sparse on Saturdays as there’s little traffic. EasyJet usually run 8 or so daily; on Saturdays there’s 2, the last of which leaves Glasgow at 1400.

Leaving sleepers out of the equation, has there been a later train from Carlisle up the WCML to London in recent years?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Apologies - I should have mentioned it's Saturday that's the particular problem.

All these weird and wonderful late night options don't exist.

Ah, sorry. I see what you mean.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Not sure if there's been a Southbound WCML service from Glasgow Central / Edinburgh Waverley to Carlisle and beyond departing from Scotland much after 7 p.m. on a Saturday since at least BR days in the 1970s. Happy to be corrected on this.

As the OP points out, the last Saturday southbound WCML service from a Carlisle perspective is thus the 2004 Avanti service originating as the 1852 from Edinburgh Waverley and headed for Birmingham New Street.

Northbound, however, there's currently still the 2005, 2054 and 2153 departures from Carlisle for Glasgow Central and the 2018 and 2107 for Edinburgh Waverley.

Does rather make the WCML service provision somewhat asymmetric from Carlisle on a Saturday evening!

 

[Bald Rick]

A good comparison is Newcastle, a city about the same distance from London, and with rather more people. The last train south to London on a Saturday is 1934.

 

[yorksrob]

A good comparison is Newcastle, a city about the same distance from London, and with rather more people. The last train south to London on a Saturday is 1934.

It is a good comparison.

And the last regional service South (to York) leaves at 21:49.

 

[Bald Rick]

It is a good comparison.

And the last regional service South (to York) leaves at 21:49.

York‘s a nice place to go to though!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

York‘s a nice place to go to though!

Indeed it is. Very popular WCML rail destination.

 

[driver9000]

I'm sure there was also a TPE at 23.34 as far as Manchester Piccadilly, that originated in Edinburgh. Covid removed it ofc. Also the 23.10 from Man Airport to Carlisle, which covid also removed.

Yes it was 22:10 Edinburgh Waverley to Manchester Airport (Haymarket, Lockerbie, Carlisle, Preston, Piccadilly). Always a very quiet train rarely carrying passenger loading in double figures. The 23:10 from Manchester terminated at Preston during its short existence and was one of those services (along with a planned 05:48 Carlisle to Liverpool which ended up starting from Oxenholme at 06:26) which never really got anywhere before the pandemic started.

I've always been led to believe that the service ends earlier on Saturday night for engineering work.

 

[yorksrob]

York‘s a nice place to go to though!

Maybe, but Wigan has soul !

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I'm sure there was also a TPE at 23.34 as far as Manchester Piccadilly, that originated in Edinburgh. Covid removed it ofc. Also the 23.10 from Man Airport to Carlisle, which covid also removed.

There were, but they didn't ever operate Saturdays, did they?

 

[Some guy]

I'm sure there was also a TPE at 23.34 as far as Manchester Piccadilly, that originated in Edinburgh. Covid removed it ofc. Also the 23.10 from Man Airport to Carlisle, which covid also removed.

That was an extremely slow service due to freight paths and was unable to stop at Penrith oxenholme or even Lancaster at times due to them stations being shut

I'm sure there was also a TPE at 23.34 as far as Manchester Piccadilly, that originated in Edinburgh. Covid removed it ofc. Also the 23.10 from Man Airport to Carlisle, which covid also removed.

the 23:10 was quite logical to get canned as TPE don’t have a depot in Carlisle so it made no sense to taxi staff to/from Glasgow or Preston

 

[driver9000]

the 23:10 was quite logical to get canned as TPE don’t have a depot in Carlisle so it made no sense to taxi staff to/from Glasgow or Preston

It would have been a Preston depot night turn.

 

[route101]

Yes it was 22:10 Edinburgh Waverley to Manchester Airport (Haymarket, Lockerbie, Carlisle, Preston, Piccadilly). Always a very quiet train rarely carrying passenger loading in double figures. The 23:10 from Manchester terminated at Preston during its short existence and was one of those services (along with a planned 05:48 Carlisle to Liverpool which ended up starting from Oxenholme at 06:26) which never really got anywhere before the pandemic started.

I've always been led to believe that the service ends earlier on Saturday night for engineering work.

I would of thought this service would be popular with Edinburgh daytrippers for Xmas markets and the festival.

 

[DarloRich]

A good comparison is Newcastle, a city about the same distance from London, and with rather more people. The last train south to London on a Saturday is 1934.

It is a good comparison.

And the last regional service South (to York) leaves at 21:49.

A lot of that is drink related. There were later trains but they were very much "party trains" hence they were removed!

York‘s a nice place to go to though!

So is Newcastle. I lived there for 4 years!

 

[Bevan Price]

Carlisle is relatively small, but 18:40 from Glasgow and 18:52 from Edinburgh seem unduly early for last southbound departures to WCML destinations.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Carlisle is relatively small, but 18:40 from Glasgow and 18:52 from Edinburgh seem unduly early for last southbound departures to WCML destinations.

Later arrivals at Carlisle (but no further South on the WCML) are still possible by using the 1913 and 2213 departures from Glasgow Central on Saturdays, routed via Kilmarnock and Dumfries (rather than via Lockerbie) and which are operated by Scotrail.

 

[Bald Rick]

So is Newcastle. I lived there for 4 years!

I agree, but you don’t need a late train on a Saturday night to go from Newcastle to Newcastle