Poor Service From Dent.

[RichmondCommu]

G'day everyone,

Although I live in South West London, I've started this thread due to the fact that my in-laws live in Dentdale but work in Leeds. In the morning the only way of getting into Leeds before 09.00 is to drive to either Garsdale or Ribblehead. Now in summer that's not a problem (in fact it's a pleasure with a nice sunrise) but in winter the Coal Road and the road up to Newby Head are often blocked. Would it really be too much trouble to make an early morning call at Dent? Given the permanent speed restriction at Dent the time lost would surely be hardly anything at all. Not only that but why not extend the last train of the day to Dent and Garsdale rather then terminate it at Ribblehead? Ribblehead to Garsdale is a much quicker journey by train that it is by car!

It’s also worth mentioning that the communities in the Northern Dales would benefit from an hourly service to Settle, Skipton and Leeds!

Your thoughts would be most welcome.

Regards,

Richmond Commuter

 

[Condor7]

G'day everyone,

Now in summer that's not a problem (in fact it's a pleasure with a nice sunrise) but in winter the Coal Road and the road up to Newby Head are often blocked.

I do not have a problem with your suggestion however I am very familiar with the area, and presume you mean that when these roads are "blocked" you mean by snow?

If so getting from Dentdale to the station even if there was a train would be an extremely difficult and arduous journey even on foot.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I do not have a problem with your suggestion however I am very familiar with the area, and presume you mean that when these roads are "blocked" you mean by snow?

If so getting from Dentdale to the station even if there was a train would be an extremely difficult and arduous journey even on foot.

Yes sorry, blocked by snow! I agree that walking up to the station is not easy in snow (I've done it myself!) however they are not the only one's who would be prepared to do it if it meant getting to work.

 

[30907]

It's only in the last couple of years that the "Ribblehead commuter" (which has run since Settle box was closed IIRC) has started back from Carlisle, and I think the Garsdale stop is newer still (it doesn't appear in the online WTT).

Unless there's a safety issue (accessing the up platform in the dark) I can't see why your relatives shouldn't ask, or contact FoSCLa, on the basis that someone obviously asked for Garsdale (and someone else for Ribblehead on the early down train).

The evening train is another matter because you're talking extra mileage. But it might be worth asking. When it was introduced (Settle box again?) Garsdale was normally switched out, which is no longer the case.

Do people still use the return working after doing the Three Peaks BTW - always assumed this was why it doesn't run ECS?

 

[Deerfold]

Do people still use the return working after doing the Three Peaks BTW - always assumed this was why it doesn't run ECS?

On the way back it becomes the normal xx47 out of Skipton for Leeds and thus stops everywhere instead of missing out the normal stations as the long-distance trains usually do.

I think it then becomes the 2256 Leeds - Skipton which is annoying as it can't meet the timetable so often misses the rather tight (non-official) connection to my last bus from Steeton and Silsden) - if I get the train before I have over half an hour to wait so might as well walk.

It needs to be in Skipton to form the 0540 to Lancaster the next morning.

 

[RichmondCommu]

On the way back it becomes the normal xx47 out of Skipton for Leeds and thus stops everywhere instead of missing out the normal stations as the long-distance trains usually do.

That certainly would make sense in the summer if people have been enjoying a day out in the fells as it avoids having to change at Skipton.

 

[Mugby]

Just as an aside to this, I wonder if you've seen the two short films by Ian Nairn on YouTube in which he takes a journey from Leeds on the S&C in BR days. He stops off at various places en route and Dent is one of them.

Fascinating travelogues from a long forgotten broadcaster!

 

[RichmondCommu]

Just as an aside to this, I wonder if you've seen the two short films by Ian Nairn on YouTube in which he takes a journey from Leeds on the S&C in BR days. He stops off at various places en route and Dent is one of them.

Fascinating travelogues from a long forgotten broadcaster!

No I haven't actually and I don't suppose my in-laws have either. Thanks very much for letting me know about this, I'll have a look
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It's only in the last couple of years that the "Ribblehead commuter" (which has run since Settle box was closed IIRC) has started back from Carlisle, and I think the Garsdale stop is newer still (it doesn't appear in the online WTT).

Unless there's a safety issue (accessing the up platform in the dark) I can't see why your relatives shouldn't ask, or contact FoSCLa, on the basis that someone obviously asked for Garsdale (and someone else for Ribblehead on the early down train).

The evening train is another matter because you're talking extra mileage. But it might be worth asking. When it was introduced (Settle box again?) Garsdale was normally switched out, which is no longer the case.

Do people still use the return working after doing the Three Peaks BTW - always assumed this was why it doesn't run ECS?

Thanks very much for your post, lots of useful information here. Running the Ribblehead Commuter from Carlisle certainly shows that progress is being made with regard to the timetable and Garsdale is much closer to the centre of Dentdale than Ribblehead. However, as stated before it doesn't take much to block the Coal Road and last winter clearing it proved at times to be futile!

The platforms at Dent are well lit but never the less the safety issue that you raise is a very good one. The foot crossing is not very well sighted in either direction but I would be interested to know whether anything is heading along the down line at that time? The PSR through Dent is 30 mph. To be honest I don't think it would have crossed their minds to contact FoSCLa or RT but the guards on that line certainly know them!

I agree that running the last train of the day to Garsdale would obviously incur extra mileage but there is no direct route by road from Ribblehead to Garsdale. I think people would be surprised by the number of people who commute into Leeds from the Dales and of course going for a drink after work! Running to Garsdale would at least be a start and allow the crossover to see some action!

Finally, in response to your last point the line is certainly popular with fell walkers hence the reason I guess for running direct services from Lancashire. I recognise that the S & C is an important freight route but it's also very important for the local community. People in the Dales feel very cut off from Leeds at times and this encourages young people to move away.

 

[55018ballymoss]

I have to correct Deerfold's comment.
The 1919 Leeds-Ribblehead and 2100 Ribblehead-Leeds weekdays, may well form the 2256 Leeds-Skipton, but is not used for the 0540 Skipton-Lancaster the next morning. The 0540 departure is a 142 or 144 (single 153 last Wednesday!) and not a 158 which all workings over the S&C are scheduled for.
As for additional trains calling at Dent, then this is something to pursue with the FoSCL definitely, to test how big the market is, and see if there is a case for it.
Extending the 1919 Leeds-Ribblehead is an interesting idea, but I would think to make it a viable option it would have to be extended to Carlisle, and create a new balancing working southbound from Carlisle.
Indeed it would be good, and is an aspiration to run a two hourly service in both directions, but there are limitations created by freight services, so any increase may have to wait until the line is resignalled and/or additional passing loops created or reopened. Currently there are no loops to recess any freight on the down from Skipton to Carlisle, and only Blea Moor and Hellifield on the up.

 

[yorksrob]

I wonder whether the Ribblehead terminators would be more useful if recast as commuter services to/from Appleby.

 

[Deerfold]

I have to correct Deerfold's comment.
The 1919 Leeds-Ribblehead and 2100 Ribblehead-Leeds weekdays, may well form the 2256 Leeds-Skipton, but is not used for the 0540 Skipton-Lancaster the next morning. The 0540 departure is a 142 or 144 (single 153 last Wednesday!) and not a 158 which all workings over the S&C are scheduled for.

Ah. now I'm confused as to what happens - I've no idea how that train leaves Skipton unless it's an ECS or there's a diagram for it somewhere in the morning.

 

[Tugzrule]

Having travelled on the current last service back calling at Dent, the 1806 from Leeds, it's hard to see where the demand for a later service comes from. It's actually, and annoyingly, hard to see any demand for a later service to Carlisle comes from going by its usual loadings despite the fact the current last train is anything but late.

As for Garsdale still having the early morning service, that's stopping come the December TT change. It was only added due to a request by the FoSCa and hasn't showed the demand and quite frankly its a good thing its changing as that service feels slow enough as it is and is almost always late thanks to the speed restrictions en route. If Garsdale doesn't have the demand for commuter services, it seems doubtful Dent will either

 

[northernchris]

Ah. now I'm confused as to what happens - I've no idea how that train leaves Skipton unless it's an ECS or there's a diagram for it somewhere in the morning.

I could be wrong, but I thought the 2256 Skipton was a pacer which then formed the 0540 Skipton - Lancaster the following morning?

Regarding the 0550 Carlisle - Leeds, it frequently runs late as has already been mentioned, and this then causes delays to the local Airedale line services. It is booked to leave Skipton at 0757, with the Bradford stopper leaving at 0801 but more often than not the Bradford leaves late. If extra calls were added to the 0550 it would likely add to the issues between Skipton and Shipley which is in desperate need of being upgraded to 4 aspect signalling

 

[RichmondCommu]

I wonder whether the Ribblehead terminators would be more useful if recast as commuter services to/from Appleby.

The problem is I think Kirkby Stephen and Appleby are too far from Leeds to be considered a possible source of commuter traffic.
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Regarding the 0550 Carlisle - Leeds, it frequently runs late as has already been mentioned, and this then causes delays to the local Airedale line services. It is booked to leave Skipton at 0757, with the Bradford stopper leaving at 0801 but more often than not the Bradford leaves late. If extra calls were added to the 0550 it would likely add to the issues between Skipton and Shipley which is in desperate need of being upgraded to 4 aspect signalling

From speaking to my in-laws I'm aware that the first train of day is often late. However I suspect this is caused by late running freight services (and of course the lack of loops) rather than anything to do with the train itself. In all fairness the extra call at Dent shouldn't really have too much of an effect given the 30mph PSR through the station.
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Having travelled on the current last service back calling at Dent, the 1806 from Leeds, it's hard to see where the demand for a later service comes from. It's actually, and annoyingly, hard to see any demand for a later service to Carlisle comes from going by its usual loadings despite the fact the current last train is anything but late.

Its hardly surprising that there are many if at all any people getting off at Dent on the 18.05 given that the first train of the day heading south is 10.07! People who work in Leeds or even Bradford will naturally head to either Gardsdale or if they expect to be working late Ribblehead. Unless we improve transport links to the Dales people will simply move away.

As for Garsdale still having the early morning service, that's stopping come the December TT change. It was only added due to a request by the FoSCa and hasn't showed the demand and quite frankly its a good thing its changing as that service feels slow enough as it is and is almost always late thanks to the speed restrictions en route. If Garsdale doesn't have the demand for commuter services, it seems doubtful Dent will either

To be honest cutting out Garsdale from the December timetable is a real shame and indeed a backward step. In all fairness delays are more likely to have been caused by late running freight trains rather speed restrictions which will have surely been built into the timetable.

I wonder whether it would be possible to allow Garsdale and Dent to be used as request stops on the first train of the day by providing a direct link to the signal box at Garsdale?

In all fairness my suggestion for an early morning stop at Dent was made on the basis that in winter the roads leading to Ribblehead and Garsdale are often blocked by snow. In particular the Coal Road can be blocked for days on end!

 

[Tugzrule]

The first service is generally just late because of all the TSRs en route, if there's any problems with a freight ahead its usually something pretty severe eg it's failed or had low power but generally anything close to the passenger is held to run behind it by Carlisle box. It is generally the first train from Leeds which can fall victim to running behind a freight.

Come winter, the delays on that line get even worse as no matter how good the driving it is just impossible to get any speed up due to wheelslip which 158s are notoriously bad for, providing they even start in the morning in the first place as that's often another cause for late running.

With Garsdale box closing in a few years time, it's even less likely that any possible extension could happen for the long term as there'd likely be no means of using the emergency crossover there (which even now is only used in rare circumstances like when the 158 which hit the haybale a few months ago or when a southbound Heavyhaul was crawling due to severe wheelflats

 

[RichmondCommu]

The first service is generally just late because of all the TSRs en route, if there's any problems with a freight ahead it’s usually something pretty severe eg it's failed or had low power but generally anything close to the passenger is held to run behind it by Carlisle box. It is generally the first train from Leeds which can fall victim to running behind a freight.

Come winter, the delays on that line get even worse as no matter how good the driving it is just impossible to get any speed up due to wheelslip which 158s are notoriously bad for, providing they even start in the morning in the first place as that's often another cause for late running.

I'm curious to know why only the first train of the day is affected by TSR's. I'm assuming that it's down to over night engineering work over runs? Hopefully in the years to come the 158's will be replaced with class 185's.

With Garsdale box closing in a few years time, it's even less likely that any possible extension could happen for the long term as there'd likely be no means of using the emergency crossover there (which even now is only used in rare circumstances like when the 158 which hit the haybale a few months ago or when a southbound Heavyhaul was crawling due to severe wheelflats

Given that all the signal boxes are likely to be abolished at the same time surely the same problem is likely to be faced at the likes of Kirkby Stephen and of course Blea Moor. And it's hard to imagine the up loop closing (or indeed the viaduct reverting to double track) so the points will need to be operated from somewhere. So on that basis why shouldn't it be possible to retain the crossover at Garsdale?

And to be honest it's hardly surprising that the crossover is rarely used given that I don't suppose the sidings at Garsdale have seen any use in the last 20 years!

 

[55018ballymoss]

And to be honest it's hardly surprising that the crossover is rarely used given that I don't suppose the sidings at Garsdale have seen any use in the last 20 years!

The sidings at Garsdale are a stabling point for the On Track Machines on a regular basis.

As for wondering why trains other than the 0550 Carlisle-Leeds are not delayed by the TSRs in place, I suggest you study the TRUST information closer. All are affected, but the later trains have more recovery time and platform time at Skipton to hide the problems.
If the 0550 Carlisle-Leeds had more recovery time before Skipton it would definitely help it be on time more often, and have much less effect on other rush hour trains.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The sidings at Garsdale are a stabling point for the On Track Machines on a regular basis.

Thanks for this, very much appreciated.

As for wondering why trains other than the 0550 Carlisle-Leeds are not delayed by the TSRs in place, I suggest you study the TRUST information closer. All are affected, but the later trains have more recovery time and platform time at Skipton to hide the problems.
If the 0550 Carlisle-Leeds had more recovery time before Skipton it would definitely help it be on time more often, and have much less effect on other rush hour trains.

I don't work in the rail industry and so don't have access to TRUST. However, I too would be interested to know why the first up train of the day doesn't have more recovery time. Moreover, what work is being done to remove these TSR's?

 

[Crossover]

I don't know the layout of all the infrastructure at the stations on the line, but could there be any possibility that units can't be turned at the likes of Dent and such, whilst I know they can at Ribbleshead? I can't imagine signalling on the line being particularly flexible

 

[Tomnick]

They can be turned back at Garsdale (though I wonder whether the box there was regularly switched out when the 'late' train to Ribblehead first started running). I don't know whether the extra mileage could be justified though - after all, it only runs to Ribblehead in service because it needs to go to Blea Moor to turn back after serving the more substantial town of Settle.

 

[55018ballymoss]

You do not need to work in the railway industry to have access to TRUST information.
Websites such as real train times and open train times provide information extracted from TRUST.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If the 0550 Carlisle-Leeds had more recovery time before Skipton it would definitely help it be on time more often, and have much less effect on other rush hour trains.

Which makes one wonder why Northern don't set it to leave Carlisle just a little bit earlier, to provide for the stops and the recovery time.

I'm fairly sure it used to leave that early when it used to be a Carlisle to Kirkby Stephen short working.

 

[Tugzrule]

Which makes one wonder why Northern don't set it to leave Carlisle just a little bit earlier, to provide for the stops and the recovery time.

I'm fairly sure it used to leave that early when it used to be a Carlisle to Kirkby Stephen short working.

Kirkby Stephen service used to leave at 0620.

To be honest, the service could just run Lazonby - Appleby - Kirkby Stephen - Settle then all stations and disadvantage very few people whatsoever going by my experience, giving it at least 5 minutes slack. Plus if the TSR actually get resolved...

 

[RichmondCommu]

They can be turned back at Garsdale (though I wonder whether the box there was regularly switched out when the 'late' train to Ribblehead first started running). I don't know whether the extra mileage could be justified though - after all, it only runs to Ribblehead in service because it needs to go to Blea Moor to turn back after serving the more substantial town of Settle.

At the time the Ribblehead service started running Garsdale was permanently switched out, except for when there were diversions from the WCML. Given that the last service has already climbed up the Long Drag I don't see why four or five miles on pretty much level track would make much difference.
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To be honest, the service could just run Lazonby - Appleby - Kirkby Stephen - Settle then all stations and disadvantage very few people whatsoever going by my experience, giving it at least 5 minutes slack. Plus if the TSR actually get resolved...

Your suggestion would disadvantage a fair few people if the first train of the day had no stops in the High Fells! The S & C needs to be seen as much more than just a tourist railway. I can understand your frustration if you are travelling along the whole length of the S & C on a regular basis but that's no reason to start cutting out the likes of Garsdale and Ribblehead. A far better solution would be to resolve the TSR's and introduce a couple of semi fast services with the stops you have suggested.

 

[30907]

Kirkby Stephen service used to leave at 0620.

To be honest, the service could just run Lazonby - Appleby - Kirkby Stephen - Settle then all stations and disadvantage very few people whatsoever going by my experience, giving it at least 5 minutes slack. Plus if the TSR actually get resolved...

The present service presumably has to maintain the stops of its predecessors (Public Service Requirement or whatever it is now), which only leaves Garsdale and Dent as optional.