Poor platform allocating at Liverpool Lime Street

[Parjon]

Who is responsible for allocating the platforms for services at Lime Street, and where are they based?

Normally going from P6, for the past week the 07:48 to Norwich has been given platform 1, parked behind the 07:44 to Wigan also on platform 1.

1) this leaves just 4 minutes for passengers to board the 07:48, being left standing on the platform until the 07:44 has left (EMR staff keeping the doors closed presumably to stop people getting on the wrong train).

2) it seems incredibly daft to also risk the cancellation or delay of the 07:48 if for whatever reason the 07:44 didn't leave. Should it have last minute problems, there is no time to resolve before the EMR is also affected.

Platform 6 appeared to be empty.

 

[zwk500]

TOCs include platforms in their bids to NR, NR planners then do the actual platforming for the plan. Then on the day Control, and Station management will have input to the signallers to manage whatever arises.on the day.
It's possible there was an infrastructure issue that stopped P6 being used, or that there was a train booked into P6 at that time (as a short term amendment) that ended up running late or being cancelled.

Each toc team is based in a different place (Avanti were Birmingham last I knew), Northern are Manchester IIRC. NR planners are MK, not sure about Control and Signallers now. But physical location isn't relevant, their job is to minimise delay and so top working between different operators is usually avoided if there is an available space to do so. Presumably there was a reason to move the trains out of 6 otherwise people wouldn't have deliberately made more work for themselves.

 

[Spartacus]

Happened twice this week and hasn't caused any issues with the EMR train, while 4 minutes is more than most trains get at any station, but having a quick look it looks like it's been down to Northern having some swaps resulting in a unit being in platform 6 earlier: the stock for the 07:48 arrives at 06:36 and also forms the 06:49. Trains start from behind other trains all the time, it what happens when you have limited capacity.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Were any other South Parkway-line services using the "wrong" shed?
Lime St is normally segregated by the route east of Edge Hill, fast or slow, with the fasts using the south shed, slows the north.

 

[LowLevel]

It's booked into platform 6 so it'll either be the signaller or Northern station supervisor who is changing it for whatever reason on the day. There will be a reason for it - it comes off Chat Moss so it might be that for whatever reason crossing it over to the high numbered platforms isn't suiting traffic when it arrives empty from Nottingham.

It has often had trains platformed on top of it wherever it departs from over the years.

Personally I like it going from the barriered platforms on occasion - it's hard to get to all the "pay when challenged" types on the Cheshire Lines trains who just wander on and take their chances. It keeps them on their toes to find they can't get on at the last minute without paying first.

 

[leytongabriel]

If you are waiting on the platform with luggage at a terminus station for a longish journey, the train is there and the doors aren't opened till a few minutes before it leaves, that's frustrating and a pretty poor passenger experience.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

It's booked into platform 6 so it'll either be the signaller or Northern station supervisor who is changing it for whatever reason on the day. There will be a reason for it - it comes off Chat Moss so it might be that for whatever reason crossing it over to the high numbered platforms isn't suiting traffic when it arrives empty from Nottingham.

It has often had trains platformed on top of it wherever it departs from over the years.

Personally I like it going from the barriered platforms on occasion - it's hard to get to all the "pay when challenged" types on the Cheshire Lines trains who just wander on and take their chances. It keeps them on their toes to find they can't get on at the last minute without paying first.

Yes, some TOCs seem to be in negotiations with Lime St regarding platforms 1-5 as ticketless travel is very high out of there all day, every day.

LNWR have been refused access to these platforms currently even though they are the ones getting the biggest anti-social behaviour hit and revenue loss (also not helped by double set running).

If you are waiting on the platform with luggage at a terminus station for a longish journey, the train is there and the doors aren't opened till a few minutes before it leaves, that's frustrating and a pretty poor passenger experience.

It happens as many large stations. It's the better of 2 evils really, would you rather wait and only be able to board the correct train or have everyone blindly get on the nearest train (which is what happens in particular at Lime St) and be on the wrong train.

This happens a lot at New St when trains split for instance, there is always some on the wrong train regardless of announcements and displays as people rarely pay any attention.

 

[Trothy]

Liverpool Lime St has a locally produced simplifier which does not align with the train plan inputted by the train planners at Milton Keynes. This is due to quirks in the signalling at Lime St that are often missed/not fully understood by the planners (often around Lime St controls)

Added to this is the complication that Northern often change which diagrammed units are stabling at Lime St overnight, and the fact that the EAS allows for 1-5 or 6-10 to be blocked every night for engineering work (fortunately this happens a lot less than it once did)

As has been pointed out, the units for the 0748 arrives in around 0630 so there are a few reasons it could end up in a different platform.

I've not been in work this week so I've no idea why it's ended up in Platform 1, personally I wouldn't put it there if I could avoid it, as that's two services I've got to try and get out and over to the fast lines and the tunnel controls on Platform 1 are annoying for departures following each other. That being said 4 minutes really isn't that short a time frame, it gets less time on platform 13 at Manchester Piccadilly and that's with passengers alighting and boarding.

 

[nw1]

Who is responsible for allocating the platforms for services at Lime Street, and where are they based?

Normally going from P6, for the past week the 07:48 to Norwich has been given platform 1, parked behind the 07:44 to Wigan also on platform 1.

1) this leaves just 4 minutes for passengers to board the 07:48, being left standing on the platform until the 07:44 has left (EMR staff keeping the doors closed presumably to stop people getting on the wrong train).

I don't think there's anything wrong with multiple trains leaving from the same platform (it's an efficient way to maximise the number of train services that a terminal can handle), but, it seems silly to keep the doors closed "to stop people getting on the wrong train". Announcements can be used to direct people onto the correct train.

Multiple trains from the same platform at Waterloo was common in the slam-door era, typically a longer incoming train splitting into two shorter outgoing trains. However did they cope?

 

[Trothy]

I don't think there's anything wrong with multiple trains leaving from the same platform (it's an efficient way to maximise the number of train services that a terminal can handle), but, it seems silly to keep the doors closed "to stop people getting on the wrong train". Announcements can be used to direct people onto the correct train.

If you'd ever worked at a station where this is a regular occurrence you'd know it's not silly, it's best practice. The alternative is the first train usually departs late as passengers are moved from the block set to the correct train, either by announcement or someone walking through the train.

 

[nw1]

If you'd ever worked at a station where this is a regular occurrence you'd know it's not silly, it's best practice. The alternative is the first train usually departs late as passengers are moved from the block set to the correct train, either by announcement or someone walking through the train.

It's silly in the sense that announcements or electronic displays can be used to direct people onto the correct train, allowing people to wait for departure in comfort on the train.

As I said, in the slam-door era, this was commonplace at terminal stations such as Waterloo, Brighton or Portsmouth Harbour. I don't remember them locking the "back" train.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I don't think there's anything wrong with multiple trains leaving from the same platform (it's an efficient way to maximise the number of train services that a terminal can handle), but, it seems silly to keep the doors closed "to stop people getting on the wrong train". Announcements can be used to direct people onto the correct train.

Multiple trains from the same platform at Waterloo was common in the slam-door era, typically a longer incoming train splitting into two shorter outgoing trains. However did they cope?

Most likely due to paying more attention to their surroundings and not having their head in a phone with ear buds or headphones on.

The vast majority of passengers carried over from short platformed stations, or having boarded the wrong train that see daily say they didn't hear any announcements as they had headphones on etc.

 

[nw1]

Most likely due to paying more attention to their surroundings and not having their head in a phone with ear buds or headphones on.

The vast majority of passengers carried over from short platformed stations, or having boarded the wrong train that see daily say they didn't hear any announcements as they had headphones on etc.

Ah ok. The half-hourly Basingstoke/Alton dividers at Woking must have blown their minds then!

I'd tend to say, if people aren't paying attention to the information provided, and get on the wrong train, they really only have themselves to blame.

 

[zwk500]

It's silly in the sense that announcements or electronic displays can be used to direct people onto the correct train, allowing people to wait for departure in comfort on the train.

People ignore every effort, even big sandwich boards saying 'front trains is beyond this point'

As I said, in the slam-door era, this was commonplace at terminal stations such as Waterloo, Brighton or Portsmouth Harbour. I don't remember them locking the "back" train.

They also didn't used to lock the doors on the move either, limitation of the times. I'm sure that there were many passengers who ended up in the wrong part of the train back then as well, just it was harder to know.

 

[43066]

It's silly in the sense that announcements or electronic displays can be used to direct people onto the correct train, allowing people to wait for departure in comfort on the train.

That doesn’t work. Whenever we have two departures from the same platform at my London terminal, the TMs will make announcements every couple of minutes, yet people still end up on the wrong train and usually end up having sweary hissy fits.

As I said, in the slam-door era, this was commonplace at terminal stations such as Waterloo, Brighton or Portsmouth Harbour. I don't remember them locking the "back" train.

Most likely because thirty or forty years ago people weren’t staring into mobiles while wearing noise cancelling headphones.

 

[Krokodil]

If you are waiting on the platform with luggage at a terminus station for a longish journey, the train is there and the doors aren't opened till a few minutes before it leaves, that's frustrating and a pretty poor passenger experience.

At least they're on the platform, boarding will take next to no time at all (no different to any through station). Compare with Euston where you're corralled on the concourse until the last minute and risk being trampled by the stampede.

 

[Trothy]

It's silly in the sense that announcements or electronic displays can be used to direct people onto the correct train, allowing people to wait for departure in comfort on the train.

As I said, in the slam-door era, this was commonplace at terminal stations such as Waterloo, Brighton or Portsmouth Harbour. I don't remember them locking the "back" train.

You didn't say though, you just edited it now to say that.

As someone who worked at terminal stations for 8 years (the station in question and Manchester Piccadilly) the amount of people I've seen miss trains or be carried to a destination they didn't want from boarding the wrong train when trains are stacked on a platform warrants the slight inconvenience to the passengers wanting to travel on the block set of leaving it locked up.

 

[nw1]

You didn't say though, you just edited it now to say that.

I edited it before I saw your reply, for point of clarification. But it really doesn't matter, it is a valid point.

But I think the other replies have revealed some insights into why people make these sorts of mistakes. Even still, one could argue that if people are paying attention to their headphones and not their surroundings, is it really the railway's duty to lock trains up to stop passengers making mistakes, or is it the passenger's duty to pay attention to their surroundings?

The railway is quick to bring threats of Byelaws prosecutions for honest mistakes. It seems inconsistent to "protect" passengers from boarding the wrong train by locking it up, but not "protect" passengers from threats of prosecution if they inadvertently use the wrong ticket. I'd reverse the situation, to be honest.

 

[Krokodil]

is it really the railway's duty to lock trains up to stop passengers making mistakes, or is it the passenger's duty to pay attention to their surroundings?

Common sense would say the latter, but these days common sense is not too common and passengers who do board the wrong train tend to take it out on staff rather than admit their mistakes.

 

[43066]

The railway is quick to bring Byelaws prosecutions for honest mistakes.

No, it really isn’t. It isn’t even quick to prosecute people for deliberate fare evasion.

It seems inconsistent to "protect" passengers from boarding the wrong train by locking it up, but not "protect" passengers from threats of prosecution if they inadvertently use the wrong ticket.

So you’re saying you want the railway to encourage people to make errors in order to “be consistent”?!

 

[Spartacus]

Most likely because thirty or forty years ago people weren’t staring into mobiles while wearing noise cancelling headphones.

Walkmans and newspapers would have had a similar effect though. Even long before that people were getting the wrong train or not getting the right portion, or off at the right place. Oh Mr Porter dates back to 1892!

 

[zwk500]

is it really the railway's duty to lock trains up to stop passengers making mistakes, or is it the passenger's duty to pay attention to their surroundings?

It's a shared responsibility. The railway should take reasonable actions to try and prevent passengers making understandable errors, but there is always one person who thinks they know best/refuses to listen/is determined to antagonise people. Locking a train to prevent boarding the wrong one is a reasonable compromise at a large terminal station.

So you’re saying you want the railway to encourage people to make errors in order to “be consistent”?!

To be fair, failure is the quickest teacher

 

[nw1]

No, it really isn’t. It isn’t even quick to prosecute people for deliberate fare evasion.

My comment was based on a number of the stories I've seen on the Prosecutions sections on here.

So you’re saying you want the railway to encourage people to make errors in order to “be consistent”?!

Not to "encourage people to make errors", no, but if I was a passenger at a terminal on a cold, damp, windy day and the option of waiting in comfort on the train was potentially available to me but I couldn't because the train was locked out of use because there were other trains in front of it, I'd be a little peeved. That (in reply to a comment by the OP), together with multiple unlocked trains being present on the same platform in the past, is what has driven my line of argument.

 

[Trothy]

Not to mention with Northerns train crew shortages some of these trains are standing down at Lime St for quite some time. If a train arrives at 1700 and it's next work is 2330 (happened to me recently) should we be leaving that train open and accessible? If it's locked up and then train in front is timed to depart at 2325 when do we open it up? Why would you want to risk passengers getting on the wrong train if you don't have too?

 

[zwk500]

My comment was based on a number of the stories I've seen on the Prosecutions sections on here.

The Prosecutions section is unrepresentative of the whole picture though, because it's only the people who need help who post there. Nobody would go onto the forum to say 'I short fared and got away with it scot free'

Not to "encourage people to make errors", no, but if I was a passenger at a terminal on a cold, damp, windy day and the option of waiting in comfort on the train was potentially available to me but I couldn't because the train was locked out of use because there were other trains in front of it, I'd be a little peeved. That (in reply to a comment by the OP), together with multiple unlocked trains being present on the same platform in the past, is what has driven my line of argument.

Terminals have train sheds, roofs and waiting rooms for this. Waiting within 4 coaches of the buffers at Lime Street is not going to be the same as waiting on Teeside Airport platform.

People did get miscarried or left behind in the past, just it was easier to overlook.

 

[Spartacus]

Not to "encourage people to make errors", no, but if I was a passenger at a terminal on a cold, damp, windy day and the option of waiting in comfort on the train was potentially available to me but I couldn't because the train was locked out of use because there were other trains in front of it, I'd be a little peeved. That (in reply to a comment by the OP), together with multiple unlocked trains being present on the same platform in the past, is what has driven my line of argument.

Trouble is in that exact same situation people will board 'the train', forgetting or not realising (because it's human nature to largely disregard information you see as irrelevant) that there's two trains and a good number will get on the first one they come to. First one goes, passenger sits there wondering 'why the delay' second one goes, then they realise when it goes the wrong way (or sometimes don't realise until a LONG time later).

Of course it's happened in the past, probably as long as there's been railway junctions (see Oh Mr Porter, 1892), but if people moaned it was to their friends, half of whom would probably have laughed, or written to the train company, so it would never become public, or to a newspaper, who if a decent size probably got scores of similar letters every week, so filed them in the wastepaper basket. Now they complain direct to the train company, tagging them on twitter, so anyone following that company, or even with a rail interest, sees it, which makes it look more like a modern problem, when really it's just they get publicity now.

I dare say the problem probably used to be worse, with more splits and attachments in the past, and far less information available to the travelling public. True, passengers would have been more used to it, but that'd be just the savvy ones. Even intelligent people often become unthinking rabbits in the headlights as soon as they step onto a station and become passengers.

 

[bramling]

If you'd ever worked at a station where this is a regular occurrence you'd know it's not silly, it's best practice. The alternative is the first train usually departs late as passengers are moved from the block set to the correct train, either by announcement or someone walking through the train.

I get why it’s done like that, but on the other hand it’s very much another example of penalising everyone to accommodate the dumb.

 

[Spartacus]

I get why it’s done like that, but on the other hand it’s very much another example of penalising everyone to accommodate the dumb.

Trouble is everyone gets penalised anyway if they panic and pull the pass com, or raise such a stink the BTP need calling, which even though it's they're own fault is far from unknown.

 

[childwallblues]

The EMT train comes off the Chat Moss line and would consist of eight Class 158 carriages which form the first two trains to Norwich. There are a number of trains using the fast lines at time so it probably makes sense to keep it on the slow line. The length of the stock on arrival dictates it could only use Platforms 1 or 5. TPE trains to Newcastle and Hull and Northern trains to Blackpool North, Wigan North Western, Manchester Airport and Manchester Victoria use these platforms at this time. The 0743 in front of your train arrives at 0711 and therefore a good place to put it.
My experience of travelling on your particular train is whether it departs from P5 P6 or P10 the guards are loathe to open the doors more than 5 minutes before departure.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Liverpool Lime St has a locally produced simplifier which does not align with the train plan inputted by the train planners at Milton Keynes. This is due to quirks in the signalling at Lime St that are often missed/not fully understood by the planners (often around Lime St controls)
...
...personally I wouldn't put it there if I could avoid it, as that's two services I've got to try and get out and over to the fast lines and the tunnel controls on Platform 1 are annoying for departures following each other.

Tunnel controls?
Does that mean there are limits on the number of trains allowed in the tunnelled sections up to Edge Hill?