Poor customer service

[ejmscot1]

Bought 1st class ticket online from A leading train company. Wasn't overly keen on the seat they gave me so contacted them and asked them if I could select another. It would cost me £10 to do!!!
What? having already had to pay £10 to move dates!!
Pretty poor customer service? Or is it just me?
Mentioned something about the National Carriage Act!!! Does this Act say get a tenner every time the customer wants to change something??
Very poor methinks.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Changing seats on a train with an Advance ticket is considered to be a change of travel plans and incurs a £10 admin fee in line with the T&Cs of the ticket that you agree to when buying it.

Asking the guard on the train if you can use another seat is often free, but subject to space being available.

 

[LexyBoy]

Mentioned something about the National Carriage Act!!! Does this Act say get a tenner every time the customer wants to change something??
Very poor methinks.

Probably the National Rail Conditions of Carriage? (Worth a quick read if you travel by train - you may find that you have more rights and flexibility than you realised.)

Just pick an unreserved seat of your choice when you get the train - it's extremely unlikely that the guard would take issue with not sitting in your booked seat, unless perhaps it is very busy.

If you don't want to pay for changes, buy a flexible ticket instead

 

[Greenback]

I wouldn't pay £10 to change seats, not worth it at all in my opinion. I'd just sit where I was put or find an unreserved seat. I've never yet been asked to sit in my allocated seat, but I suppose there's a small chance it could happen one day.

 

[yorkie]

Bought 1st class ticket online from A leading train company.

Who? How did you buy the ticket - online, over the phone or in person?

Wasn't overly keen on the seat they gave me so contacted them and asked them if I could select another. It would cost me £10 to do!!!

How did you find out the seat wasn't good? What seat were you given and what did you ask for?

Very poor methinks.

Agreed. If you book a journey for East Coast, on the East Coast website, you can select the seat you want at the time of booking. If you later wish to change the seat, you can still do so without charge.

As I don't know who you travelled with, who/where you bought the ticket from, I can't really advise.

I would avoid telesales. If you live near a good, competent, friendly ticket office, that would be your best bet.

We don't know what train you are catching, so we cannot advise on how busy the train may be, but if it's not busy, you would be able to sit in an alternative seat.

 

[IanD]

Changing seats on a train with an Advance ticket is considered to be a change of travel plans and incurs a £10 admin fee in line with the T&Cs of the ticket that you agree to when buying it.

Asking the guard on the train if you can use another seat is often free, but subject to space being available.

It's not a £10 Admin Fee, it's an Admin Fee of up to £10. The fact that the TOCs choose to charge the full £10 for such a simple change is ridiculous.

I think there should be some sort of investigation in to this 'Admin charge' - it doesn't seem reasonable or proportionate for some of the things that it applies to. Banks were forced to make sure their additional charges reflected the actual cost of providing the additional service so maybe the rail ticket sellers should too.

 

[Greenback]

I don't think it's an unreasonable. Not only is it meant to recognise the time taken to cancel and reissue tickets, it also discourages people to buy the cheapest fares as soon as they come out only to change them for something else later.

It's part of the reason that some Advances can be so cheap in the first place.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It's not a £10 Admin Fee, it's an Admin Fee of up to £10. The fact that the TOCs choose to charge the full £10 for such a simple change is ridiculous....

The card I have for the T&Cs, the one I give out when I sell an Advance ticket, says....

...a £10 administration fee per person, per single ticket for each change to a journey....

So I'd say it's not the TOCs that are charging as much as they can, as they didn't set the conditions of the fare.

 

[Clip]

It's not a £10 Admin Fee, it's an Admin Fee of up to £10. The fact that the TOCs choose to charge the full £10 for such a simple change is ridiculous.

I think there should be some sort of investigation in to this 'Admin charge' - it doesn't seem reasonable or proportionate for some of the things that it applies to. Banks were forced to make sure their additional charges reflected the actual cost of providing the additional service so maybe the rail ticket sellers should too.

Well the change of seat, issuing a new one then letting the oold seat go back into the reservation system wont happen on its own.

What do you think is a fair price for someone to sit there and do that then?

 

[Greenback]

If there was no charge, I think that there would be a significant increase in the amount of changes being requested, which would have an impact on the price of Advance tickets. One way or another, the costs of doing this will be paid for in the end, and I would like to avoid a situation where the costs are passed to everyone, even if they don't want to change their tickets.

Don't get me wrong, I've had to change my plans once or twice, I'm not perfect, but I feel it is fair to pay a fee when it happens so that those that don't make a change get a cheaper price, while those that do, pay for the privilege.

 

[talldave]

A charge for changes is perhaps fair, albeit a bit steep at £10 per person if a family was trying to change plans.

However, as always with the rail industry, it's all one-way. When the TOC fails to deliver my pre-booked tickets at a TVM and causes me inconvenience, they should be paying me £10.

 

[Greenback]

I have some sympathy with that view talldave, at least on moral grounds.

 

[IanD]

Well the change of seat, issuing a new one then letting the oold seat go back into the reservation system wont happen on its own.

What do you think is a fair price for someone to sit there and do that then?

Well someone should be sitting there anyway during the mandatory ticket office opening hours so the marginal cost to the employer is nil.

The system is computersised so it shouldn't take that long (but knowing how badly some of these systems are designed it probably takes ages but it's not as if it's all in handwritten ledgers where the original booking was made!), maybe a couple of minutes.

Say the person doing the change is paid £20 an hour/35p per minute (probably much less than that in reality) - then a reasonable cost would be approximately 70p.

Round it up to £1 if you want.

 

[Greenback]

As I said, it's not meant to be a true reflection of costs. There is a deterrent effect at play, exactly as Ryanair decided when they introduced a ridiculously high fee to check in at the airport. It was meant to encourage people to check in online, and it has worked, allowing ticket costs for everyone to be kept down.

It's exactly the same here. If the fee were non existent, or even £1, clerks would be spending most of their time dealing with ticket changes rather than generating revenue by selling tickets. Whichever way you look at it, there are extra costs, and I don't want to pay towards them unless I actually need to change a ticket, thank you very much!

 

[Clip]

Well someone should be sitting there anyway during the mandatory ticket office opening hours so the marginal cost to the employer is nil.

The system is computersised so it shouldn't take that long (but knowing how badly some of these systems are designed it probably takes ages but it's not as if it's all in handwritten ledgers where the original booking was made!), maybe a couple of minutes.

Say the person doing the change is paid £20 an hour/35p per minute (probably much less than that in reality) - then a reasonable cost would be approximately 70p.

Round it up to £1 if you want.

Not only to echo what Greenback has said with regards to the costs but what many have said before hand it also a deterrent for people buying up large swathes of advances and freely changing them to suit their plans - which could lead to those tickets not being able to go back on at the price paid.

You cant really base the time/effort just by the clerk either. But what do I know. I only manage the booking offices and stations I have no real idea of what actually goes on in the real world.

 

[IanD]

Not only to echo what Greenback has said with regards to the costs but what many have said before hand it also a deterrent for people buying up large swathes of advances and freely changing them to suit their plans - which could lead to those tickets not being able to go back on at the price paid.

I'm talking about charging £10 for changing to a different seat on the same train. How does that translate to "people buying up large swathes of advances"? Calling moving to a different seat on the same service a "change of travel plans" is nonsensical.

You cant really base the time/effort just by the clerk either. But what do I know. I only manage the booking offices and stations I have no real idea of what actually goes on in the real world.

Well, that was the argument the banks used but it didn't wash for them. They were forced to introduce charges that reflected the time and effort required by the person carrying out the admin task.

 

[Greenback]

You may think it's nonsensical, but until all of the railway companies follow the airlines by introducing fees to select your specific seat, or be allocated one by the computer (as mostly happens now), it does prevent people who are unhappy with their seats for whatever reason rushing straight down to the station and change their seats because it's too close to the toilet, too far from the toilet, or whatever.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Well someone should be sitting there anyway during the mandatory ticket office opening hours so the marginal cost to the employer is nil. ...

That is a debatable point.

At a small station with an hourly service, yes they probably would just sit there between trains, but then maybe that admin fee (for however many changes there are) also balances the argument for the office staying open at all?

At larger stations it might be that the balance is whether or not the TOC employ another member of staff to help out at certain times?

This sort of thing isn't really quantifiable if you look at the admin fee alone, though.

 

[rdwarr]

Say the person doing the change is paid £20 an hour/35p per minute (probably much less than that in reality) - then a reasonable cost would be approximately 70p.

Round it up to £1 if you want.

Bit more than that though. Add in a few more costs like:

• Employers National Insurance
• Pension
• Holiday
• Office space
• IT Support
• Commissions
• Stationery
• etc.

and you begin to realise that the "cost" of an employee is a lot more than their gross salary.

 

[IanD]

Bit more than that though. Add in a few more costs like:

• Employers National Insurance
• Pension
• Holiday
• Office space
• IT Support
• Commissions
• Stationery
• etc.

and you begin to realise that the "cost" of an employee is a lot more than their gross salary.

That was the argument the banks used but it didn't wash for them. They were forced to introduce charges that reflected the time and effort required by the person carrying out the admin task.

Anyway, by rounding up to £1 (i.e. adding on almost 50% of the real cost) I've allowed for this. Plus I reckon I've overstated the hourly rate by a few pounds anyway.

Plus the £1 figure was suggested as a "reasonable" charge for changing a seat reservation given the short amount of time it takes.

For a 2 minute job to be worth £10, that's an hourly rate of £300 - are the TOCS employing solicitors to do this work or something??

 

[bb21]

How many people are actually charged £10 for swapping seats in reality?

 

[IanD]

How many people are actually charged £10 for swapping seats in reality?

The OP would have been by the sound of it.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....They were forced to introduce charges that reflected the time and effort required by the person carrying out the admin task...

Respectfully, I disagree.

 

[Starmill]

Changing seats on a train with an Advance ticket is considered to be a change of travel plans and incurs a £10 admin fee...

Well, by you it is considered to be that, yes - and I think that is the crux of the matter.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Well, by you it is considered to be that, yes - and I think that is the crux of the matter.

I resent the implication, but if you must know, the instruction to charge came from ATOC.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think there should be seat reservations for advanced travel. You should be tied to the particular train, but have to either find your own seat or stand. Those paying full fare should have the option of reserving a seat of their choice should they so choose.

Some TOC's use this system for advanced fares, so it's perfectly possible.

 

[Flamingo]

I don't think there should be seat reservations for advanced travel. You should be tied to the particular train, but have to either find your own seat or stand. Those paying full fare should have the option of reserving a seat of their choice should they so choose.

Some TOC's use this system for advanced fares, so it's perfectly possible.

Good point, well presented.

 

[Starmill]

I am rather in agreement. As a start, reserving a seat rather than a train should be optional, not compulsory. Arriva Trains Wales say they offer Advance customers Seat Reservations at ticket offices, but the simple act of not giving a seat res to everyone who books an advance online helps reduce the problem of overcrowded train and reserved seats. Or maybe, people with Advance tickets could pay a surcharge for a seat reservation but reservations remain free to walk up ticket holders across the board? There are some solutions out there is the point. Technology also offers some solutions: CrossCountry APOD is one such, but I am far from convinced of it myself. It reinforces the notion that those who pay the most have the greatest risk of standing because more people on cheap tickets have reserved seats (or worse, may reserve their seat and chuck them out of it part way through their journey). It does however offer the tech savvy a solution with the 10 minute text reservation system that can be used by walk-up ticket holders, so they get the flexibility they paid for in a walk-up ticket, and can still get a seat - IF you are equipped with the modern technology, that is.

 

[sd0733]

Yes, agree with others here about the scrapping reservations automatically with advances, the system at LM and I believe SWT where you get the reservation portion of an advance with the train time and simply coach * seat *** seems to work fine, very very few complain about it.
The policy on most TOCs where the cheapest tickets get a seat guaranteed and the most expensive are left to pick over what's left is totally backward to common sense really.

 

[trentside]

I have to agree with the last few posts. Chiltern Mainline is a good example of services which have Advance tickets but no reservations, and from what I saw it didn't cause any issues - and indeed, unless the train is busy I rarely use my reserved seat if there is a better one available.

As for the £10 fee, I agree with HHF that there have been instructions issued to this effect - and I was once told off by a manager for issuing a free set of altered reservations for a couple on Advance tickets. I think this is something you can shop around for though - you may find some clerks who will do it for free.