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Police checking travel

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Skimpot flyer

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The Police really haven't covered themselves in glory through all of this, the latest sorry tales from the posters above really articulating the severe damage they are causing to people's lives with their Stazi-like performance. And its not helped by the Home Secretary's rhetoric, and of course the Met Commissioner literally telling people to dob each other in.

I've mentioned elsewhere how I've been continually surprised how little malcontent we've seen from the general public, but one sure fire way to stoke those fires is for the Police to become increasingly draconian. Many of us will remember how Thatcher's government used the Police as a blunt weapon against the miners, and how that exploded in their faces. Much more of what we are sadly seeing and I can see something starting sooner or later, probably in some inner city area where believe me tensions will already be running high.
Two pictures that are eerily similar. Police on horseback wielding batons against people legitimately protesting. The photos are separated by 37 years: one taken during the miners’ strike in the UK, the other in Amsterdam last week
 

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DB

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That is just an empty threat and they know it.

If that had been me I would have been inclined to tell them that if they issued to FPN, I will dispute it in court, at which time I would produce evidence of the medical appointment.

They would then be required to explain to the court why they disbelieved my story about attending a medical appointment.

It's basically bullying, isn't it? They know that a lot of people (even if doing something perfectly legal) will just back down and go home if challenged by the police.

It's going to have a big impact on public trust in them going forward though.
 

island

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Last week I needed to attend a medical appointment (surprisingly not cancelled!) which was inaccessible by public transport and due to the nature of the appointment I couldn’t walk or cycle, I don’t drive either. My friend gave me a lift, on the way there we were stopped by police (probably because we are two young lads in a sporty hatchback, driving normally I might add), the police refused to accept that I was attending an appointment and said even if that was true it’s illegal for someone else to give you a lift (not true). After a substantial back and forth where we refused to give our details for the FPN they were called to another incident, and ominously said we best not be seen together in a car again and they had made a note of the registration Plate.
It is one of the reasonable excuses to leave home to attend a medical appointment or, where reasonably necessary, to accompany a friend to a medical appointment. (SI 2020/1374, Sch 3A, part 1, par 2 (7) (a)). It is also permissible for two people from different households (but no more) to be together in a vehicle. (SI 2020/1374, Sch 3A, part 1, par 4 (1) (a))

However, it was an offence for you to fail to give your details (SI 2020/1374, Reg 10 (1) (d)) and you could have been arrested (section 110, Serious Organised Crime and Police Act).
 

roversfan2001

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It is also permissible for two people from different households (but no more) to be together in a vehicle. (SI 2020/1374, Sch 3A, part 1, par 4 (1) (a))
That's one that I've been curious about; as to whether a vehicle is classed as indoor or outdoor, and the implications of the social distancing requirements when it comes to two people in a small car.
 

P Binnersley

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That's one that I've been curious about; as to whether a vehicle is classed as indoor or outdoor, and the implications of the social distancing requirements when it comes to two people in a small car.
Guidelines at
"Car sharing is not permitted with someone from outside your household or your support bubble unless your journey is undertaken for an exempt reason. For example, if car sharing is reasonably necessary as part of your work."
An exempt reason is the same as the reasons for leaving home.

The definition of "Indoors" is linked to premises (buildings); so I don't think cars are indoors.

Interpretation of previous regulations suggests the vehicles are neither indoor or outdoors.
 

Watershed

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It is also permissible for two people from different households (but no more) to be together in a vehicle.
That's one that I've been curious about; as to whether a vehicle is classed as indoor or outdoor, and the implications of the social distancing requirements when it comes to two people in a small car.
There is no legal requirement for people who are gathering in a private/personal capacity to socially distance.

You would only be permitted to avail of para 4(1)(a) to meet someone else in a vehicle if it didn't have a roof of any description!

It is the presence or absence of a roof (whether temporary or permanent) that determines whether or not somewhere is considered enclosed, and thus indoors, for the purposes of the Health Act 2006 and thus the Regulations (which reference the Act's definition).
 
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Jamesrob637

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I am absolutely sick of the police right now and I know I'm not the only one.

Do we have any police officers on this forum? If so I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. Can you justify this? Or would you like to apologise? Have you tried to talk sense into any of your commanding officers? If there are some good officers on here who are appalled by their colleagues actions I'd love to hear from you and you'd totally have my support.

Is there anyone here who thinks these behaviours are justified? If so I'm up for a massive argument, and it will be the full argument, not the 5 minute argument.

They didn't have the most amazing reputation even pre-COVID!
 

kristiang85

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They didn't have the most amazing reputation even pre-COVID!

When you look back in the summer at them kneeling in front of protests that ultimately went on to damage quite a lot of public property, and then you look at the way people sitting on a bench are treated, you can see respect for them rapidly evaporating. That will take a long time to get back.
 

yorkie

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They didn't have the most amazing reputation even pre-COVID!
I dunno; overall I think our police were not too bad pre-Covid. A few bad apples didn't make me change that.

But Covid changed all that for me.

I found this video amusing, and so incredibly apt:

Video shows two boys acting the part of authoritarian policemen breaking up a teddy bear's picnic and arresting one of the bears
 
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Jamesrob637

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I dunno; overall I think our police were not too bad pre-Covid. A few bad apples didn't make me change that.

But Covid changed all that for me.

I found this video amusing, and so incredibly apt:

Video shows two boys acting the part of authoritarian policemen breaking up a teddy bear's picnic and arresting one of the bears

Yeah they were always hit-and-miss but probably more "hit" pre-COVID

Now it seems to err more on "miss"
 

Trackman

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I dunno; overall I think our police were not too bad pre-Covid. A few bad apples didn't make me change that.

But Covid changed all that for me.

I found this video amusing, and so incredibly apt:

Video shows two boys acting the part of authoritarian policemen breaking up a teddy bear's picnic and arresting one of the bears
I was expecting an ending scene of the teddy bear being shot, hung or something!
Luckily we are way off that at the moment ............ for now.
 

island

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That's one that I've been curious about; as to whether a vehicle is classed as indoor or outdoor, and the implications of the social distancing requirements when it comes to two people in a small car.
A vehicle is clearly outdoors for the purpose of the regulations at hand. Social distancing is not a legal requirement.
There is no legal requirement for people who are gathering in a private/personal capacity to socially distance.

You would only be permitted to avail of para 4(1)(a) to meet someone else in a vehicle if it didn't have a roof of any description!

It is the presence or absence of a roof (whether temporary or permanent) that determines whether or not somewhere is considered enclosed, and thus indoors, for the purposes of the Health Act 2006 and thus the Regulations (which reference the Act's definition).
I am afraid you have misdirected yourself. The definition of whether a place is indoors for the purpose of the regulations at hand, in section 2 (6) (f) of SI 2020/1374 (as amended) makes reference to whether it would meet the definition of enclosed in section 2 of the Health Act 2006. Section 2 of the Health Act 2006 makes reference only to premises; vehicles are defined and made smoke-free pursuant to section 5. It is clear, therefore, that for the purpose of SI 2020/1374, a vehicle is not indoors, regardless of whether or not it possesses a roof.

(For completeness, occupants of a vehicle could find themselves indoors if the vehicle is itself indoors, such as perhaps an underground car park.)
 

Watershed

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I am afraid you have misdirected yourself. The definition of whether a place is indoors for the purpose of the regulations at hand, in section 2 (6) (f) of SI 2020/1374 (as amended) makes reference to whether it would meet the definition of enclosed in section 2 of the Health Act 2006. Section 2 of the Health Act 2006 makes reference only to premises; vehicles are defined and made smoke-free pursuant to section 5. It is clear, therefore, that for the purpose of SI 2020/1374, a vehicle is not indoors, regardless of whether or not it possesses a roof.
I would absolutely like for this to be the case, but I don't share your optimism! Unfortunately the legislation is very vague on this point, using the phrase "place" (in SI 2020/1374) almost interchangeably with "premises" (in 2006 c. 28).

Sec. 2 of the latter subordinates the definition of "enclosed" and "substantially enclosed" to secondary legislation. It makes no reference to that only being for defining "enclosed premises" etc. - and neither does SI 2020/1374 reference Sec. 5, so I don't think that Sec. 5 has any relevance to SI 2020/1374.

SI 2006/3368 takes up the opportunity given by Sec. 2, but rather unhelpfully only defines what "enclosed premises" etc. are. Therefore it is unclear whether the term "enclosed place" etc. is actually defined for the purposes of SI 2020/1374, rather than taking its ordinary meaning.

It's a total mess. Realistically speaking, most police officers are going to treat people that are together in a vehicle as holding an indoor gathering.

If those people were issued with a FPN, it's questionable whether it would be a productive use of money, time and effort to fight the matter in the Magistrates' (who would no doubt convict), then to appeal, etc.
 

island

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I would absolutely like for this to be the case, but I don't share your optimism! Unfortunately the legislation is very vague on this point, using the phrase "place" (in SI 2020/1374) almost interchangeably with "premises" (in 2006 c. 28).

Sec. 2 of the latter subordinates the definition of "enclosed" and "substantially enclosed" to secondary legislation. It makes no reference to that only being for defining "enclosed premises" etc. - and neither does SI 2020/1374 reference Sec. 5, so I don't think that Sec. 5 has any relevance to SI 2020/1374.

SI 2006/3368 takes up the opportunity given by Sec. 2, but rather unhelpfully only defines what "enclosed premises" etc. are. Therefore it is unclear whether the term "enclosed place" etc. is actually defined for the purposes of SI 2020/1374, rather than taking its ordinary meaning.

It's a total mess. Realistically speaking, most police officers are going to treat people that are together in a vehicle as holding an indoor gathering.

If those people were issued with a FPN, it's questionable whether it would be a productive use of money, time and effort to fight the matter in the Magistrates' (who would no doubt convict), then to appeal, etc.
I don’t think that’s a reasonable interpretation – the draughtsman could amply have included clear references to vehicles or to s5 HA 2006 had they wished, and the lack of reference sends a signal that the definition of indoors only includes premises.

But I do agree with the final two paragraphs (other than the parenthesis), and like most aspects of Covid regulations, the chances of anything building to a point where it matters are negligible.
 

nedchester

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takno

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More to the point the police wasting their own time.
It's really strange how keen they are to take to Twitter and boast about it. We would definitely be a lot better off if individual stations and divisions were prevented from parading their ineptitude and pettiness across social media
 

nedchester

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It's really strange how keen they are to take to Twitter and boast about it. We would definitely be a lot better off if individual stations and divisions were prevented from parading their ineptitude and pettiness across social media
Indeed.

How about travelling on the trains and check ticketless travel. County Lines gangs using the trains to get around for example.

I suppose it's nice and warm in the car though......
 

DB

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Indeed.

How about travelling on the trains and check ticketless travel. County Lines gangs using the trains to get around for example.

I suppose it's nice and warm in the car though......

It does very much give the impression that they are picking on easy targets rather than spending their time on issues which are genuinely causing problems for people. This won't do their public credibility any good at all in the long run.
 

Trackman

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It's really strange how keen they are to take to Twitter and boast about it. We would definitely be a lot better off if individual stations and divisions were prevented from parading their ineptitude and pettiness across social media
It's Acton Bridge, it's not as if it's some run down area with kids drinking, running across the tracks, smashing TVM's on the platform etc.
This person has nothing better to do or worry about, they just want to big it up with the local community.
 

nedchester

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It's Acton Bridge, it's not as if it's some run down area with kids drinking, running across the tracks, smashing TVM's on the platform etc.
This person has nothing better to do or worry about, they just want to big it up with the local community.
As I say once this is over some enthusiasts has vowed to go there and 'make some noise'!!!
 

68000

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In Ireland, the police have issued 1,000 fines in the last two weeks to people who travelled over 5km from home. The police are amounting checkpoints to intercept non-essential travel
 

21C101

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Given that for many of us in this industry, police are colleagues not just police, the above posts ought to be very worrying for them. If their fellow colleagues on the railways think that, how does the general public feel?

Yes they are only obeying orders but so were people in the 1940s and that didn't make it right either.
 

DB

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In Ireland, the police have issued 1,000 fines in the last two weeks to people who travelled over 5km from home. The police are amounting checkpoints to intercept non-essential travel

It would be expected that there of all places (especially close to the border) the police would be aware of the risks of over-reach - but it sounds like not!
 

bramling

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More to the point the police wasting their own time.

This one really boils me. I'm not sure what's worse, the Acton Bridge idiot up to his usual antics, or the police for actually turning up there. I bet if the individual concerned reported being burgled they'd get less of a police response.

As a country we are properly down the toilet, it's so sad to see the depths to which we've sunk.

Likewise I object to police time, funded by public money, being wasted in this way.
 

dk1

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Indeed.

How about travelling on the trains and check ticketless travel. County Lines gangs using the trains to get around for example.

I suppose it's nice and warm in the car though......
The police wouldn't have the knowledge or authority to check tickets though. I would imagine their presence is better utilised at stations rather than trapped on individual trains.
 

nedchester

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The police wouldn't have the knowledge or authority to check tickets though. I would imagine their presence is better utilised at stations rather than trapped on individual trains.

I suspect that wouldn’t stop them asking passenger who they have suspicions of if they have a ticket or not.

They may wish to travel on trains between locations they need to check. Certainly better than visiting isolated stations because a local nutter is having a personal vendetta with enthusiasts.
 

185143

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The police wouldn't have the knowledge or authority to check tickets though. I would imagine their presence is better utilised at stations rather than trapped on individual trains.
I've had my ticket checked by BTP at Rochester. (I should add I hadn't done anything to attract Police attention!:D) There was what looked like a Home Office Immigration sting going on at the time, the barrier staff had completely disappeared (there were staff in the ticket office though, I think) and a couple of BTP officers were seemingly manning the barriers. When my Kent Rover didn't work one of them looked at it and let me out. That said, it wasn't looked at in any particular detail and the date boxes certainly weren't examined-so I suspect they were simply looking at the expiry.

I would have considered a Police Officer an Authorised Person to ask to see a ticket personally.
 

Watershed

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The police wouldn't have the knowledge or authority to check tickets though.
They do have the authority, under the Byelaws (18.2), as well as more generally by virtue of being authorised to act on behalf of the train companies (who, after all, pay for the BTP).

Police officers are unlikely to have detailed knowledge of ticket validity but it isn't difficult to check that a person has a ticket which is in date, for example.
 
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