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Police checking travel

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Sir Felix Pole

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The rules / guidance seem to be especially vague regarding cycling - I started again after a long absence during the first lockdown, and I am very keen to keep riding. Unlike driving to a beauty spot, it is 'exercise' all the way, but it is going to be rather boring just riding locally round the block. The various cycling organisations are trying to get a definite answer of what 'local' is, but to no avail. I ride alone and carry spares such as an inner-tube etc in case of puncture, so I'm self-sufficient. It would be nice to know exactly what the position is before I venture out again.
 
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farleigh

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If these police officers reflect on their day/week they should be hugely embarrassed.

What have they achieved here?
 

yorkie

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The rules / guidance seem to be especially vague regarding cycling - I started again after a long absence during the first lockdown, and I am very keen to keep riding. Unlike driving to a beauty spot, it is 'exercise' all the way, but it is going to be rather boring just riding locally round the block. The various cycling organisations are trying to get a definite answer of what 'local' is, but to no avail. I ride alone and carry spares such as an inner-tube etc in case of puncture, so I'm self-sufficient. It would be nice to know exactly what the position is before I venture out again.
There is no legal limit, so do what you are comfortable with.
 

Hadders

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The law says you can meet one other person in a public outdoor place. It doesn't say that the other person you met with must come from the same locality as you. This implies that travel is allowed.

BBC 10 O'clock News has just reported that Derbyshire Police as reviewing the FPNs.
 

Kite159

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So why can you not do it local to where you live?

Because this local area doesn't have that many paths which are accessible without requiring a 10+ minute walk along busy 60 mph mainroads, resulting in the remaining paths being busy (and quite muddy)
 

yorkie

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The law says you can meet one other person in a public outdoor place. It doesn't say that the other person you met with must come from the same locality as you. This implies that travel is allowed.
Agreed; there is also no distance limit on support bubbles.
 

bramling

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What would be wrong/the negative impacts with doing that if all elements of the trip were socially distanced?

Let us not forget the Cummins Affair, was much worse.

I’m not trying to insinuate whether there’s anything wrong with it not, merely ascertain what on earth is actually permitted or not on Planet Boris! I just can’t see that a 4-hour drive could be regarded as “local” under any measure.

The only issue is really the honeypotting, I can sympathise with locals in these areas becoming hacked off with the place invaded day after day. To be fair that’s quite a valid grievance. As ever the problem is that there’s a disproportionate number of people with free time on their hands, which will create issues which wouldn’t otherwise be there.

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Yes, being able to go for a nice walk in the country was one of the few redeeming features of last year, but even that's too much for the lockdown junta.

To be fair, I’ve not been able to have a nice country walk for the last month or so, and that isn’t because of lockdown junta, but because of too many people churning up the paths. Likewise in my book a walk in the country should be peaceful and tranquil, not passing people every 15 seconds - especially with a proportion of them making a massive fuss about passing, which is what’s been happening round here. When out walking one wants to try and forget about Covid, not be reminded of it every 2 minutes.
 

Skimpot flyer

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That’s some quite chilling reading! Any the fact that the police force haven’t condemned it afterwards as has often been the case is even more concerning.

So basically, I could travel 5 miles to walk. One officer would say that’s completely reasonable and not fine me. Another could fine me. And both, within the law, are right - according to the police force . I’m sorry, what!?
If you want your blood chilled, try reading this:

(Twitter post about a police visit)
Wednesday, I had a visit from the Police (to have a friendly chat, & it was)
They had received a malicious call from someome regarding my Twitter posts criticising #Covid, #Masks & #Lockdown restrictions etc
Telling me what to think, say, what opinion to have
The poster is an actor specialising in voiceovers for TV ads.
He has had follow-up from a Mail Online journalist, who has contacted the police force who visited him
 

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Kite159

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In my eyes there should be clear guidance, of say 10 miles from your home address to travel for exercise purposes.
 

ChrisC

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The only issue is really the honeypotting, I can sympathise with locals in these areas becoming hacked off with the place invaded day after day. To be fair that’s quite a valid grievance. As ever the problem is that there’s a disproportionate number of people with free time on their hands, which will create issues which wouldn’t otherwise be there.

To be fair, I’ve not been able to have a nice country walk for the last month or so, and that isn’t because of lockdown junta, but because of too many people churning up the paths. Likewise in my book a walk in the country should be peaceful and tranquil, not passing people every 15 seconds - especially with a proportion of them making a massive fuss about passing, which is what’s been happening round here. When out walking one wants to try and forget about Covid, not be reminded of it every 2 minutes.
That’s the problem I am having. At the beginning of the first lockdown during March, April and May I hardly used my car. I walked most days from home around local footpaths and over fields and hardly saw anyone. From June onwards it has got busier and busier, with every part of the village full of parked cars, and hoards of people on the footpaths which are now so muddy. The crowds over Christmas an New Year were unbelievable. I can understand why some people in National Park villages have had enough.

I now drive 2 or 3 times a week between 5 and 10 miles to quieter areas where I can enjoy a peaceful walk without the crowds. Yesterday I walked for nearly 7 miles and only passed 3 people. Hopefully, if the weather is good, I will do the same tomorrow. The only problem is that when I return the lane where I live is so full of parked cars that I can’t get my car back into the drive. It hasn’t been anywhere near so busy this week since the new lockdown began, so it will be interesting to see what it is like this weekend. Certainly, being in Tier 4 last weekend didn’t stop the crowds.
 
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infobleep

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No. Unlike with Penalty Fares, there is no appeal process. This can go down one of four routes:
  1. The police do not proceed to issue the fixed penalty notice and sweep it under the carpet (the article says the women's details were taken, as opposed to the notice being issued there and then).
  2. The fixed penalties are issued and paid.
  3. The fixed penalties are issued and unpaid, and the women are prosecuted in court.
  4. The fixed penalties are issued and unpaid, and a prosecution does not proceed, either because the women make representations to the authorities or because the CPS do not take the matter forward.
Well I do hope it's 4. My reading of the laws and guidance is you can exercise locally and that is what the ladies did.

Now if 5 miles is too far then the government need to explain this better.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The rules / guidance seem to be especially vague regarding cycling - I started again after a long absence during the first lockdown, and I am very keen to keep riding. Unlike driving to a beauty spot, it is 'exercise' all the way, but it is going to be rather boring just riding locally round the block. The various cycling organisations are trying to get a definite answer of what 'local' is, but to no avail. I ride alone and carry spares such as an inner-tube etc in case of puncture, so I'm self-sufficient. It would be nice to know exactly what the position is before I venture out again.
Perhaps they want it vauge do there is a higher chance of people being fined. After all people being finned brings in additional revenue. That's the cynic in me talking.

The sensible just says it's incompetence on this perticular point. Of course the government brought the laws in under secondary legistation making it harder for parliament and other MPs to improve the laws.
 

bramling

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That’s the problem I am having. At the beginning of the first lockdown during March, April and May I hardly used my car. I walked most days from home around local footpaths and over fields and hardly saw anyone. From June onwards it has got busier and busier, with every part of the village full of parked cars, and hoards of people on the footpaths which are now so muddy. The crowds over Christmas an New Year were unbelievable. I can understand why some people in National Park villages have had enough.

I now drive 2 or 3 times a week between 5 and 10 miles to quieter areas where I can enjoy a peaceful walk without the crowds. Yesterday I walked for nearly 7 miles and only passed 3 people. Hopefully, if the weather is good, I will do the same tomorrow. The only problem is that when I return the lane where I live is so full of parked cars that I can’t get my car back into the drive. It hasn’t been anywhere near so busy this week since the new lockdown began, so it will be interesting to see what it is like this weekend.

The cold weather probably will help a bit. We sometimes go out in the dark too, but this isn’t ideal for various reasons - not least as the whole point of the walk is to get some daylight exposure. There’s only so many “family get slapped with fine for having a picnic” headlines before the tide turns.

To be honest I do get a bit fed up with all the walks being busy and churned up. After having been at work every day bar one since Boxing Day, when I am off it really is quite valuable to me to be able to get out for just a couple of hours, and to try to forget Covid for that time. It’s impossible to do this when one keeps encountering these pseudo-terrified types who make a big deal out of passing. Normally on my local walks on a weekday I’d barely expect to see anyone.

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Well I do hope it's 4. My reading of the laws and guidance is you can exercise locally and that is what the ladies did.

Now if 5 miles is too far then the government need to explain this better.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Perhaps they want it vauge do there is a higher chance of people being fined. After all people being finned brings in additional revenue. That's the cynic in me talking.

The sensible just says it's incompetence on this perticular point. Of course the government brought the laws in under secondary legistation making it harder for parliament and other MPs to improve the laws.

I’d actually be surprised if the government *want* too much trouble, as they must know they’re already teetering on the brink of civil disobedience and/or a mass breakdown in compliance, neither of which they really have the resources or even the nous to control.

To be honest, part of me wishes there would be a bit of renewed BLM activity, as that would set things in motion.
 

Mag_seven

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Well I do hope it's 4. My reading of the laws and guidance is you can exercise locally and that is what the ladies did.

Now if 5 miles is too far then the government need to explain this better.

The law (in England) places no limit on how far you can travel provided you are out of the house for a legitimate reason. You cannot enforce "guidance" although clearly the PCs in this case thought that you could. Its worrying that those who have the power to fine do not understand this simple concept.
 

infobleep

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The law says you can meet one other person in a public outdoor place. It doesn't say that the other person you met with must come from the same locality as you. This implies that travel is allowed.

BBC 10 O'clock News has just reported that Derbyshire Police as reviewing the FPNs.
I hope if they review it in the ladies favour, a spokesperson explains their earlier comments in light of it being overturned. Of course they won't do that.

I sometimes think a spokesperson's comments should be held to account later. I don't mean the person themsleves should be accountable, as they are only the messenger but that the comments should be reassed because some are just plain ludacris.
 

bramling

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The law (in England) places no limit on how far you can travel provided you are out of the house for a legitimate reason. You cannot enforce "guidance" although clearly the PCs in this case thought that you could. Its worrying that those who have the power to fine do not understand this simple concept.

So is this definite then - in law one can drive as far as one wants, as long as if questioned the purpose of the journey is to facilitate exercise? Presumably one can’t enter Wales or Scotland though.
 

infobleep

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That’s the problem I am having. At the beginning of the first lockdown during March, April and May I hardly used my car. I walked most days from home around local footpaths and over fields and hardly saw anyone. From June onwards it has got busier and busier, with every part of the village full of parked cars, and hoards of people on the footpaths which are now so muddy. The crowds over Christmas an New Year were unbelievable. I can understand why some people in National Park villages have had enough.

I now drive 2 or 3 times a week between 5 and 10 miles to quieter areas where I can enjoy a peaceful walk without the crowds. Yesterday I walked for nearly 7 miles and only passed 3 people. Hopefully, if the weather is good, I will do the same tomorrow. The only problem is that when I return the lane where I live is so full of parked cars that I can’t get my car back into the drive. It hasn’t been anywhere near so busy this week since the new lockdown began, so it will be interesting to see what it is like this weekend. Certainly, being in Tier 4 last weekend didn’t stop the crowds.
You don't live in Derbyshire do you? If so be careful. The police might stop you and fine you, as well as telling you to walk locally.

I did a local walk the other weekend with a friend. The friend drove to see me. We had a good walk together and off they went.

We did pass other people on route but not hundreds of people.

There might be place I could go to get away from others but in order to do so I have to walk there and whilst walking there I will pass other people.

The alternative is to stay inside and get no exercise. As it is I get less exercise than I did before covid-19.
 

ChrisC

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You don't live in Derbyshire do you? If so be careful. The police might stop you and fine you, as well as telling you to walk locally.
No, neighbouring Nottinghamshire, so I will not drive in the direction of Derbyshire. Actually, away from the City of Nottingham and the towns along the border with Derbyshire up towards Mansfield, Nottinghamshire is a very rural county. There’s miles of deserted footpaths and country lanes in quite sparsely populated areas. I think it’s because the village where I live is only about 9 miles from Nottingham that we are currently getting the crowds who just want to get out of the city for a country walk. As has already been pointed out many people have lots of time on their hands.
 

Cdd89

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In my eyes there should be clear guidance, of say 10 miles from your home address to travel for exercise purposes.
If a limit is to be considered, I’d suggest it should be measured in expected travel time rather than distance.

Having given this some thought, the police are in a difficult situation. Extremely authoritarian law has been passed and they can either not enforce it, or try and enforce it. The more common - and wiser - approach is the former, but other forces try and “square the circle” by enforcing.

The problem is that the way the law has been written (to ban people from being outside of their house, except for excuses), the only way such enforcement can happen is via an authoritarian police state. It is a suspension of the default position of freedom, replaced with a default assumption of breaking the law subject to an excuse, which can only be determined by questioning. The U.K. police have no stop and account power and must suspect you of being outside your home without reasonable excuse. But failing to engage with police would likely be viewed as reasonable grounds for suspicion by many officers. The end result is the same.

Other places that have implemented superficially similar lockdowns have not done the same. The Netherlands for example never banned being outside your home or travel, just closures and household mixing limits. Given what a fundamental shift this is, the onus is on lockdown proponents to explain why the incremental benefit justifies such a fundamental stripping away of rights.

I expect the argument would be that banning being outside the home makes it easier to enforce against things like household mixing. But we do not routinely strip populations of fundamental freedoms just to make enforcement easier - even for much more serious crimes we could possibly prevent. Now we’ve set the bar for this unprecedented step at “preventing risk of passing on a disease with an overall mortality around 1%” (this is not to underplay it), why shouldn’t we remove other fundamental freedoms (like the right to privacy) to prevent murders, pedophiles, etc? While we’re at it, why not keep the “no person may leave home without reasonable excuse” law indefinitely, just expanding the list of reasonable excuses, so we can then question anyone loitering for any reason; we’d probably catch all sorts of otherwise hard to enforce criminal activity?
 

ValleyLines142

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Asthma comes in many forms.

It is also not your job or place to accept or not accept anything.

And all the while it would seem you are breaking the rules (well the entire “point” of them) by wearing one all day.

You aren’t exempt so have no experience of what it feels like to have to wear the lanyard of David.

I don’t want to sound nasty but people need to keep their own house in order before worrying about anyone else’s
Sorry but it is when I have hundreds of other customers to look out for.

I change my covering every 4 hours.
 

yorksrob

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To be fair, I’ve not been able to have a nice country walk for the last month or so, and that isn’t because of lockdown junta, but because of too many people churning up the paths. Likewise in my book a walk in the country should be peaceful and tranquil, not passing people every 15 seconds - especially with a proportion of them making a massive fuss about passing, which is what’s been happening round here. When out walking one wants to try and forget about Covid, not be reminded of it every 2 minutes.

Over the xmas period, I've found seaside promenades to be sufficiently spacious, not too busy and free of mud to enable a good walk and a change of scene. With the current lockdown I'm now landlocked unfortunately.
 

Bantamzen

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So if the ladies paid the fine, can they still appeal? I do hope so.

There seems to be a postcode lottery when it comes to covid-19 fines. If it's right they get fined in Derbyshire then it isn't right that people aren't be find elsewhere.

I'm all for people staying local for exercise but I don't see 5 miles as not being local. I did a walk that was 5 miles recently. OK it was a round trip, so may be the furthest distance was 2.5 miles but still.
But still what? It was 5 miles, not 500. Geez I can walk that in little over an hour. Frankly this country needs to learn how to get a grip if 5 miles is considered too far for people to go for a wander.
 

VauxhallandI

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Sorry but it is when I have hundreds of other customers to look out for.

I change my covering every 4 hours.
I also imagine you never touch the mask when putting it on (bar the strings), you wash your hands when you change it over and your Sainthood is booked for Easter time.
 

Hadders

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Derbyshire police have U-turned now and seen sense. It’s still poor it’s taken a National Media outcry to provoke a modicum of common sense.

Covid: Fines reviewed after women 'surrounded by police' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55594244

I can’t link properly as per forum rules due to being on my phone.

The police will have no choice but to cancel the FPNs. So it doesn't seem like a climb down I suspect they'll say they're reviewing them today and quietly cancel them next week and hope nobody notices because the media have moved on....
 

Philip

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The government have told people to 'act like they have the virus' in their latest advertising campaign... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55598918

I don't like the lockdown but think it is necessary currently to help prevent a major NHS crisis. However, this doesn't seem the smartest thing to say by the government, particularly in light of these police issues like in Derbyshire. It seems to imply people shouldn't leave their home at all, as that is the rule of self isolation if you have the virus or have come into physical contact with someone who has had the positive test.
 

trainophile

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Added to the "you MUST work from home if you can" order, it's no wonder more people are out and about for an hour or so each day, as it's the only chance they get to leave the claustrophobia of their homes. In normal times (anyone remember them?) you'd have had enough of being out when you got home from a day's toil, now you might have been incarcerated in a tiny home office, or even at the kitchen table for seven or eight hours, so it's no wonder you want a change of scene.
 

infobleep

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If someone wished to collect an item of computer equipment to enhance their working environment, would that pass the need to leave ones house for work, if the item being collected was over 30 miles away?

What are the chances of police stopping people on roads in and out of London?
 

jumble

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Let's agree to disagree

Well that police officer has no idea what a picnic is obviously!!
They should contest it in court, as it'll probably be thrown out!

A Barrister on Pistonheads has offered to represent these two pro bono as he is convinced the FPNs are unlawful
I would be very confident Derbyshire Police will drop the FPN like a stone if they are faced with a barrister

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According to an article on mail online, police are taking peoples names and addresses and fining them if they are not "local"

I am led to believe that the McDonalds 4 were stopped several hours before opening time which makes the Polices consideration of reasonability of excuses rather more acceptable

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The law is quite clear what is and is not allowed.

The interpretation that is being made is that excersise is allowed, that you are allowed to enjoy should be done in the locality in which you live, you would only travel a distance to be more enjoyable and therefore would be recreation.

Ask the question why would you not excercise in your local green space and travel several miles to another location. If the answer is that you would enjoy it more at the other location then it is by definition recreation and not allowed.

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So why can you not do it local to where you live?

Perhaps have a little think and forget the hysteria
How much of a Covid risk is it to be in a car on your own ?
How much of a Covid risk is it to be in an open space?
My contention is very close to Zero.
Are the Police causing more of a Covid risk by unnecessary engagement with people by telling them not to drive 3 miles to have a walk ?
My contention is Yes they are

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
 
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Skimpot flyer

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A follow-up to my post (#338) last night about police visiting someone as a result of posting things on Twitter (is nobody on here alarmed by the concept of ‘thought police’?)

James messaged me that Police said ‘there was an accusation of incitement through the anonymous call they had. In that I was "boasting" about not wearing a mask and encouraging others to do the same’

He explained to them that the majority of his tweets were retweets from senior scientific and medical professionals relating to peer reviewed scientific papers and the Danish mask study.

What exactly are the justifications for such a visit. Is thinking outside the established groupthink a crime now?
 
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