Police checking travel

[Ianno87]

There simply isn't the resource available to setup and administer an exemption scheme in the way you think there should be. From all the extra work it would put on medical professionals having to issue letters/proof of a medical condition to Government, presumably councils, having to review and approve these exemptions and issue a badge/lanyard/whatever to show to the police to prove their exemption. Plus while waiting for the necessary medical appointment or waiting for exemption application to be approved what do you do If you are unable to wear a mask but need to travel on public transport or go into a supermarket/pharmacy etc...

While there are plenty of furloughed/unemployed people who could be employed to do this work it takes time to get everything setup and the necessary training provided. Then there's the cost. The NHS and councils are already struggling financially as it is.

Plus, all being well, the requirement for face coverings will eventually be withdrawn eventually anyway.

 

[yorkie]

It has echoes of the people who abused the law on service animals in the US to designate untrained pets as service animals in order to bring them onto planes with them for free in the US.

I don't think so.

The end result was that it became more difficult for people with genuine service animals to travel with them.

I can't see a requirement for doctors to issue medical exemptions, if that's what you are suggesting.

 

[VauxhallandI]

It’s amazing how easily people can be triggered into concentrating so much time on something so insignificant.

The only conclusion I can come to is that they doth protest too much and in fact just people who are upset that they have to do something when others don’t.

Quite, quite sad really and shows that far from being the righteous souls they say they are they are in fact just bitter people that are normally at the extremes of society but are having their 15 minutes; just remember when the 15 minutes are over there could be consequences.

In time the facts can play out differently and those abused can easily have their say with all the juicy audit trails of the 21st Century.

 

[Kite159]

I don't think so.

I can't see a requirement for doctors to issue medical exemptions, if that's what you are suggesting.

When I flew with easyJet last month one of the emails mentioned their mask policy, if you were exempt you needed to get a letter from the doctors/medical centre to say you were exempt.

Which will probably reduce the number of those deciding they don't want to wear a mask because it will mess up their makeup (and who actually likes wearing masks?)

 

[Sprinter107]

All this is a good reason for not having masks in the first place. It's not like they're showing themselves to be in any way effective, so perhaps police resources could be better deployed enforcing measures which are actually beneficial, or continuing with their normal workload?

Absolutely in agreement with that.

 

[takno]

When I flew with easyJet last month one of the emails mentioned their mask policy, if you were exempt you needed to get a letter from the doctors/medical centre to say you were exempt.

Which will probably reduce the number of those deciding they don't want to wear a mask because it will mess up their makeup (and who actually likes wearing masks?)

Since doctors aren't issuing such letters, it's essentially limiting air travel to people who are medically able to wear masks.

I think people in here chuntering on about almost everybody wearing a mask may be missing the point that a lot of us have just stayed out of shops and off public transport for the last 5 months. Apart from a brief trip to see my brother that was my policy until last month. I don't want to create waves or risk exposing anyone to anything. Even though I'm completely confident the evidence for masks is desperately bad I'd always rather just comply than mount some kind of principled stance. The trouble is I simply can't keep a mask on. It's not asthma, it's severe anxiety and panic attacks. I've never discussed with my doctor because I've never been forced to wear something that constricts my breathing before, and with the best will in the world I don't trust whatever locum my surgery manage to dig up not to just mark on my permanent record that I'm a nutjob and send me away with a flea in my ear.

Luckily for me my boss noticed just how negative an effect this attempt not to make waves was having on me, and all but forced me to go into a couple of shops and on a bus. It's difficult for me to explain the frame of mind I'd reached by that point, but it wasn't a good place.

As it happens I picked up a lanyard in July straight after the first panic attack when Transpennine were still actively suggesting them, and I've found that that's enough to stave off any attention. I'm fairly sure there are plenty of people in my position who don't even know they exist or where to get them. Most of them are probably still stuck at home, living quiet lives of misery for no better reason than to satisfy the whims of some of the nastier curtain twitchers on here.

 

[lkpridgeon]

I still maintain that, were I exempt, which technically I am but do not exercise it, I would out of respect for my fellow passengers provide a reason as to why I was not wearing a mask. Because, as we are so concerned about rights of individuals here, I believe that any passenger on a train has the right to not share a carriage with a passenger who is not wearing a mask unless it is absolutely necessary.

Out of interest how many times a day would you be willing to provide the reason you're not wearing a mask?

In my case, I've been asked about 12 times yesterday to wear a mask/why I'm not wearing a mask and have resulted to just pointing at the brightly coloured lanyard. As someone with an officially diagnosed generalized anxiety disorder by the NHS and privately that can be triggered by confrontation this can cause issues and indeed has over the last 6 months with Northern, SWR, XC and LNER. As some staff weren't honouring exemptions at all and threats were made in some cases by gate staff and guards. I've only had a formal apology from two of them. And the ORR has been in touch over the other two.

I've asked and even offered to pay privately for proof of exemption from my GP and my private counselor however they've been told in no uncertain terms not to issue them. Even if I need them to travel for business! The I'm exempt and this is my proof is seen as the lanyard right now and begrudgingly it's at least minimising conflict.

If I could wear one I would because quite frankly it'd be a lot less hassle than what I've had to do. I've tried multiple times and on one occasion ended up having a panic attack on the platform at Basingstoke. Subsequently this put me out of order for a couple of days. So now I just have to deal with people fleeing to different carriages, guards shouting at me down platforms, constant hassle at ticket barriers, hoping I don't come into contact with BTP, etc... etc...

In regards to the person that observed about people pestering TOCs about not mentioning that exemptions apply. It's a bare minimum situation, they have no excuse not to show it and I'd go as far as it being a deliberate choice for it not to be included. And it certainly should be part of the announcement guards are making (*cough* LNER *cough*).

I've a friend that is exempt however is trying to wear a mask due to social pressure, all it's done is restricted them from going out and negatively affected their mental health. I've only kept going as I know if I stop living my life as normal as possible I'd end up in bed in a completely disfunctional state and only get up for food. No work would get done and I'd end up jobless.

 

[FGW_DID]

Since doctors aren't issuing such letters, it's essentially limiting air travel to people who are medically able to wear masks.

I think people in here chuntering on about almost everybody wearing a mask may be missing the point that a lot of us have just stayed out of shops and off public transport for the last 5 months. Apart from a brief trip to see my brother that was my policy until last month. I don't want to create waves or risk exposing anyone to anything. Even though I'm completely confident the evidence for masks is desperately bad I'd always rather just comply than mount some kind of principled stance. The trouble is I simply can't keep a mask on. It's not asthma, it's severe anxiety and panic attacks. I've never discussed with my doctor because I've never been forced to wear something that constricts my breathing before, and with the best will in the world I don't trust whatever locum my surgery manage to dig up not to just mark on my permanent record that I'm a nutjob and send me away with a flea in my ear.

Luckily for me my boss noticed just how negative an effect this attempt not to make waves was having on me, and all but forced me to go into a couple of shops and on a bus. It's difficult for me to explain the frame of mind I'd reached by that point, but it wasn't a good place.

As it happens I picked up a lanyard in July straight after the first panic attack when Transpennine were still actively suggesting them, and I've found that that's enough to stave off any attention. I'm fairly sure there are plenty of people in my position who don't even know they exist or where to get them. Most of them are probably still stuck at home, living quiet lives of misery for no better reason than to satisfy the whims of some of the nastier curtain twitchers on here.

It’s a shame if they are hiding themselves away, they shouldn’t. The sunflower lanyard seems to be quite well known. I believe they were available pre-Covid, certainly at places at Heathrow, and then once Covid kicked in and mask wearing raised it’s ugly head, it was picked up by some supermarkets and then Network Rail / TOCs.

My Stepson is autistic and lives in an assisted living house, my wife and I both work on the Railway, we made sure that all the housemates had sunflower lanyards when available. By definition the housemates, who all have ‘hidden disabilities’ are exempt from masks but they all wear masks through choice when on public transport. (I appreciate not everybody is the same!)

Personal opinion I do think if you have an exemption, you should be required to and be able to provide proof to an authorised official (I.e Police & Medical Staff, not shopkeeper, Transport staff etc or general Joe Public)

One more thing, just to clear up any confusion, if I have referred to an FPN, I have meant a Fixed Penalty Notice as issued by the Police (BTP or Home Office Police Force) and not a PFN (Penalty Fare Notice) as issued by TOC staff for no tickets etc.

I think the policy across all TOCs is that whilst the legislation is you should wear a mask (unless exempt) whilst on public transport and at transport hubs (and that’s the message that is certainly being pushed across), it’s down to the relevant Police Force to enforce the legislation. (Which I think by now everybody agrees is the proverbial pile of p**!)

Amazingly though, in everyday life, if you have a disability and want to claim a benefit/ exemption/ discount you have to provide some proof of entitlement to receive it, it may be a letter from your Dr, it may be a letter confirming you are in receipt of Disability Living Allowance or similar and yet here we are, in exceptional times and the midst of a global pandemic and the drive to protect everybody, not just the vulnerable and we are all quite happy just to take someone’s word for it!

I do feel for those with genuine issues but the amount of people who bang on about the rules don’t apply to them, they won’t comply etc. Is it any wonder people are cynical.

Personallyif I had an exemption, I would carry a card or wear a lanyard, yes by law I may not have to but how hassle/ time would it save/

 

[island]

You do not have to Routinely show any written evidence of this and you do not need to carry an exemption card.

But no where on that page does it say anything about the Police having to accept your given exemption at face value. So surely they are well within reason to issue the FPN and then person concerned appeals as the quoted excerpt above infers that at times you will need to provide written evidence.

This is correct, save that as mentioned below, there is no appeal process; if you don’t want to pay the FPN then it goes to Magistrates Court.

Authorised officers (which include police, local council employees, and TfL staff) can ask members of the public to explain why they are exempt from wearing a face covering, and can (though should not routinely) ask them to provide evidence of such. If an authorised officer believes that a member of the public is not wearing a face covering and does not have a reasonable excuse, they gain various powers such as the power to issue an FPN or to require the member of the public to leave the place they are in.

A lot of people upthread have quoted extracts from guidance or websites around verbal declarations of exemption being acceptable, but as this forum is fond of pointing out, guidance is not the law. Under the law, non-wearing of a face covering is a strict liability offence (in other words, one can commit the offence without intending to commit it). It is a defence to show that one has a reasonable excuse. If a recipient of an FPN has a reasonable excuse, then they can be asked to provide evidence for it in court, if charged with the offence. The prosecution does not need to prove that the defendant did not have a reasonable excuse; you cannot prove a negative.

The other controls on the face coverings regulations include that the police cannot bring court proceedings for breaches; they have to go via the CPS. This is unusual for summary offences, which the police prosecute themselves all the time.

I reach the above conclusions with no real enthusiasm. The various face coverings regulations were implemented in a hurry with the goal of being seen to do something. The self-declaration of exemptions, the conflict of interest which discourages most businesses from enforcing the rules*, and the lack of police interest in applying them** mean that the situation is farcical, promotes conflict, and pits individuals against one another. For me personally, the rules have meant I have cut leisure train travel to zero, which my friends and acquaintances off this forum have been shocked to learn. In September, I had dealings with two very unpleasant members of GWR staff on the matter of face coverings. The staff members were objectively and unarguably in the wrong (requesting passengers to wear face coverings on outdoor unenclosed platforms) but the situation caused me panic attacks and trouble sleeping for a number of days thereafter. I cannot risk further damage to my precarious mental health by putting myself at unnecessary risk of a similar conflict again.

I don't think GWR are authorised to issue Fixed penalty notices under the various Coronavirus regulations.

They aren’t.

I'm also sure I've seen someone before (think may have been @island) say that there is no formal[1] appeals process for Fixed penalty notices. If you disagree with the notice being issued then your option is to go to court & argue it there.

It was

Yes, I also thought if you were issued a FPN you have to sign it basically saying 'guilty'.
Basically if you disagree it's off to court.

There is no requirement in the COVID19 regulations for the recipient of an FPN to sign it, nor is signing an FPN (even if they have a space for signature) an admission of guilt.

*an average retail or food and drink service business which enforces the face covering rules too strictly risks the money walking out the door to their competitors a few doors down
**sources I trust in two English police forces have told me that due to limited resources officers will not attend calls regarding failure to wear a face covering unless there is an aggravating factor such as violence or a threat to public order. I suspect it is similar elsewhere.

 

[Bantamzen]

Yes there's an issue with some people falsely claiming they are exempt but the solution isn't to fine those who are exempt and are actively complying with the COVID regulations.

Is there? Do you have some evidence of this?

 

[peters]

Is there? Do you have some evidence of this?

You mustn't watch/read the news or use Twitter if you are asking for evidence. From day 1 of the mandatory face covering requirements there were people posting on Twitter that they will refuse to comply and then posting whether or not they get away with it. Then more recently there were anti mask protests in pretty much all major cities like London, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle, Bristol, Leicester, Nottingham etc. which has been covered by all major news outlets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jan 2021 ==

I did a weekly shop at a big Tesco and totally forgot my mask until I went out. Oops! Nobody said anything.

In a way it's good you didn't get verbally abused, like some exempt people have been but it would have good if supermarkets had disposable face masks available at the entrance for those who have forgotten theirs.

 

[yorkie]

Personal opinion I do think if you have an exemption, you should be required to and be able to provide proof to an authorised official (I.e Police & Medical Staff, not shopkeeper, Transport staff etc or general Joe Public)

I refer you to posts in this thread, especially post #127 above yours, as well as post #120.

Once you have read those posts, I trust you will see the difficulties in your proposal.

Personallyif I had an exemption, I would carry a card or wear a lanyard, yes by law I may not have to but how hassle/ time would it save/

Again I refer you to post #127, which demonstrates that this does not always save hassle/time.

I witnessed an XC guard go rushing up to someone demanding they wear a face covering without any tact whatsoever; he did not politely ask them if they had an exemption. When I objected to this behaviour, he responded by taking a photograph of me and threatening to remove me from the train. When other passengers joined the dispute, he finally gave up the argument. I've encountered him before and I will be keeping a close eye on him if I encounter him again.

I refer you to post #129 to highlight the unpleasantness the face coverings laws cause. I will still make journeys because I am prepared to back people up and intervene if I witness poor behaviour; I do feel for those who no longer feel able to travel by public transport as a result of this most unsatisfactory situation we are currently in.

But none of this is new for this thread; the problems highlighted in this thread have been posted here before, in numerous other threads.

 

[peters]

In my case, I've been asked about 12 times yesterday to wear a mask/why I'm not wearing a mask and have resulted to just pointing out of by the brightly coloured lanyard. As someone with an officially diagnosed generalized anxiety disorder by the NHS and privately that can be triggered by confrontation this can cause issues and indeed has with over the past 6 months with Northern, SWR, XC and LNER as staff weren't honouring exemptions at all and threats were made in some cases by gate staff and guards. I've only had a formal apology from two of them. And the ORR has been in touch over other two.

Disappointing to see Northern in that list. I witnessed one of their ticket staff effectively bullying someone, who obviously was suffering from anxiety because he didn't agree with the combination of tickets which should be used for the journey, despite them having being told they were the cheapest option by someone else working for Northern. They assured me staff are properly trained and should be sensitive to such situations.

 

[yorkie]

They assured me staff are properly trained and should be sensitive to such situations.

If only!

Sadly the training is inadequate and there are insufficient safeguards in place to ensure correct behaviour by staff.

 

[6Gman]

The problem I've got is that, unless people are asked to give proof, the exemption rule is very open to being a abused by those who simply don't want to wear one and in doing so are putting others at risk. The other week a young man was smoking fag after fag on the platform yet claimed he was asthmatic when challenged and so was let off.
Probably around 20-30% of people on my journeys refuse to wear a mask and I'm sure if challenged they would call themselves exempt. The fact of the matter is, however, that only a very limited number of people truly do not have the ability to wear a mask. Me and my family all have asthma varying from very mild to very severe and we can all cope with having a mask on all day, let alone for a half an hour journey. Furthermore I don't see why very many people are exempt from wearing a visor.
I don't think it is in any way unreasonable to ask for proof of exemption, whether that's through one of those lanyards, a doctor's note or any other means. Its clear you are exempt if not wearing a mask, so there's no more embarassment in proving it than there is sitting without a face covering on. Personally, I think that if asked you should prove it purely out of respect for those you are travelling with, or otherwise simply don't travel. Because in doing so you are helping to root out those who are pretending to have a disability for their own gain - which when you think about it is pretty sick!

This.

 

[yorkie]

This.

Really?

Have you read posts #127 #120 and #129?

 

[sjpowermac]

Really?

Have you read posts #127 #120 and #129?

I think the post below is also a very good (though hopefully rare) point. I remember reading an article about this, very sobering.

Imagine being on a busy concourse and trying to explain that you were a rape victim and wearing a mask brings up severely traumatic memories of that hand over their mouth?

Do we really expect people to reasonably explain this?

 

[Bantamzen]

You mustn't watch/read the news or use Twitter if you are asking for evidence. From day 1 of the mandatory face covering requirements there were people posting on Twitter that they will refuse to comply and then posting whether or not they get away with it. Then more recently there were anti mask protests in pretty much all major cities like London, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle, Bristol, Leicester, Nottingham etc. which has been covered by all major news outlets.

So no evidence then?

 

[peters]

So no evidence then?

The evidence is where I stated it is. Do you need a tutorial on how to use a search box on Twitter or how to search Google News?

There's thousands of relevant tweets on Twitter. You can spend a week critiquing each of them if you wish. I'm also not sure it's within the forum rules to take a thread off-topic, maybe you can set up a new thread if you want to discuss it further?

 

[221129]

The evidence is where I stated it is. Do you need a tutorial on how to use a search box on Twitter or how to search Google News, or are you just lazy?

Anecdote isn't evidence.

 

[Bantamzen]

The evidence is where I stated it is. Do you need a tutorial on how to use a search box on Twitter or how to search Google News?

There's thousands of relevant tweets on Twitter. You can spend a week critiquing each of them if you wish. I'm also not sure it's within the forum rules to take a thread off-topic, maybe you can set up a new thread if you want to discuss it further?

Anecdote isn't evidence.

Exactly, people spouting off on Twitter does not constitute evidence.

 

[peters]

Exactly, people spouting off on Twitter does not constitute evidence.

Really? The police manage to make arrests based on what people post on social media, so I don't think the law agrees with your view.

I take it if a train operator posts on Twitter that their train is cancelled, them that's not evidence, in your opinion, as in your opinion that's just someone spouting off.

Perhaps you need to start 2 new threads as it seems you also want to discuss something else that doesn't relate to the original post now?

BTW when I said you can spend a week critiquing them, I meant you could work out which of the thousands are genuine and suggest someone has broken the law because they don't agree with the law and which are spam.

However, you seem confident 66 million people in the UK fully comply with COVID restrictions. Where's your evidence for that?

 

[Bantamzen]

Really? The police manage to make arrests based on what people post on social media, so I don't think the law agrees with your view.

I take it if a train operator posts on Twitter that their train is cancelled, them that's not evidence, in your opinion, as in your opinion that's just someone spouting off.

Perhaps you need to start 2 new threads as it seems you also want to discuss something else that doesn't relate to the original post now?

BTW when I said you can spend a week critiquing them, I meant you could work out which of the thousands are genuine and suggest someone has broken the law because they don't agree with the law and which are spam.

However, you seem confident 66 million people in the UK fully comply with COVID restrictions. Where's your evidence for that?

Well would you care to share the said Tweets?

 

[peters]

We would you care to share the said Tweets?

No because I'm on my phone so can't, as the Twitter app doesn't allow it and you need to use the website for linking to Tweets. Also like I said there's thousands and I also don't have time to go through them all and pick the most relevant ones.

 

[yorkie]

@peters you may recall there have, in other threads, previously been claimed that there is a problem with people falsely claiming exemptions; the claims turned out to be unfounded.

The onus is on you to provide the evidence of your claims, there is no onus on others to do so.

You said:

Yes there's an issue with some people falsely claiming they are exempt ....

When asked for evidence, you referred to anti-mask protests:

... there were anti mask protests in pretty much all major cities like London, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle, Bristol, Leicester, Nottingham etc. which has been covered by all major news outlets.

You did not provide a link and quote (as per forum rules); I have done some research and found an example of what appears to be one of the protests you were referring to:-

Anti-mask protesters descend on London streets | LBC

Anti-mask protesters have gathered in central London to demand an end to lockdown rules.

www.lbc.co.uk

Anti-mask protesters have gathered in central London to demand an end to lockdown rules.

It is the fourth protest in the capital against lockdown, as people call for an a stop to restrictions in the fight against coronavirus.

Most of the protesters could be seen without masks on and not sticking to social distancing as they stood close together in huge numbers.

Louise Creffield, the founder of Save Our Rights UK, one of the organisations behind the demonstration, said: “We believe that the coronavirus regulations that are in place are not proportionate and appropriate, and are causing more harm than good.

“We are very concerned with protecting people’s human rights: right to privacy, family life, bodily autonomy, medical freedoms, and so on. We are not just concerned with lockdowns per se, we are concerned with the infringements with our privacy by having this track and trace everywhere.

“The impact of the actions taken by the government are numerous, so we are not willing to support that, and we are keen to take a stance.”

It sounds like a collection of people there for a multitude of reasons; yes some will be anti-mask, though many are opposed to other issues, or the wider issues surrounding the legislation.

But there is no evidence that any of the anti-mask people you are referring to are claiming to be exempt under the legislation?

When you say "there's an issue with some people falsely claiming they are exempt" do you have evidence of this being an actual issue? I have been very active since the mask mandates came into force, making many journeys and have seen no evidence of there being any issue with people falsely claiming they are exempt. Indeed on the contrary; I have been surprised at how few people have been actually exercising their right to exemptions.

In contrast I have witnessed personally and seen videos of inappropriate behaviour by numerous individuals towards people who are exempt.

I see no evidence that your claim is true (other than applying to a tiny number of people) but we do have the opposite problem whereby people who are exempt are challenged when they shouldn't be.

 

[FGW_DID]

You mean you aren’t taking what @peters has said at face value and you don’t believe him! But he couldn’t possibly be telling porkies!
He said he’s read the tweets so you ‘have to’ accept the fact. You can’t ask for proof!

 

[VauxhallandI]

Really? The police manage to make arrests based on what people post on social media, so I don't think the law agrees with your view.

I take it if a train operator posts on Twitter that their train is cancelled, them that's not evidence, in your opinion, as in your opinion that's just someone spouting off.

Perhaps you need to start 2 new threads as it seems you also want to discuss something else that doesn't relate to the original post now?

BTW when I said you can spend a week critiquing them, I meant you could work out which of the thousands are genuine and suggest someone has broken the law because they don't agree with the law and which are spam.

However, you seem confident 66 million people in the UK fully comply with COVID restrictions. Where's your evidence for that?

In the words of David Brent “some allegations will be false”

You can list as many tweets as you like but they are unqualified comments from biased sources.

You only have to look to the example I shared in another thread about a curtain twitcher send the police around to my friends house to invade their home for no reason. I’m sure their tweet wouldn’t have been amended to say oh sorry I was wrong

 

[Skimpot flyer]

This.

Then you’ll both doubtless applaud police in Hyde Park today asking people for proof that they are from the same household (check the video from around 0m55s).

We are just moments away from having to ‘carry our documents’ like in pre-unification Germany. Wunderbar!

 

[bramling]

Then you’ll both doubtless applaud police in Hyde Park today asking people for proof that they are from the same household (check the video from around 0m55s).

We are just moments away from having to ‘carry our documents’ like in pre-unification Germany. Wunderbar!

All very odd; I suspect there’s a bit more to it than meets the eye, as that does seem a hell of a lot of police resource just for people socialising in a park.

I love the way one sees the police van fully laden with officers.

Maybe this was at Cressida’s request, as I can certainly say that my recent professional dealings with police have unfailingly shown their attitude to be akin to this forum, if not more so.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Then you’ll both doubtless applaud police in Hyde Park today asking people for proof that they are from the same household (check the video from around 0m55s).

We are just moments away from having to ‘carry our documents’ like in pre-unification Germany. Wunderbar!

Interesting video, thank you for sharing. Personally, I feel the comment about a full blown Police State a bit OTT. I wonder if there is a way for the Police to uphold the law which we can all agree on. Me thinks not.