"Pointless" Journeys

[Ivo]

The recent FGW Brighton thread was a very lively one. So it got me thinking: Are there any routes out there which others believe are completely unnecessary? For instance, do Southern really need to serve Sutton with any service other than the Horsham line? Do both NXEA and FCC need to serve King's Lynn? Is there really any point in having so many different lines in the Blackwater Valley area? Why should the Met call at Finchley Road?

...The list goes on, but are there any that other people would like to discuss?

(One of two such threads I am running on specific routes.)

 

[jamesontheroad]

Do both NXEA and FCC need to serve King's Lynn?

Well, to be honest, yes it is handy, because many people north of Cambridge commute to London, and the peak-time NXEA trains serve Liverpool Street instead of King's Cross. Despite a longer journey time, that can be more convenient for people who work in the City.

 

[4SRKT]

For many years it was only Liverpool Street for Kings Lynn > London travellers.

 

[jopsuk]

The small number of Kings Lynn NXEA services (two AM peak southbound, three PM peak northbound) provide extra capacity on the Fen Line that FCC don't have the rescources to provide- there's a lot of people from north of Cambridge commute in to Cambridge by train.
(there's also two AM services start at Ely, and one PM service that terminates there)

 

[northwichcat]

London Overground serving Watford Juntion has been mentioned before due to ticketing implications.

 

[Techniquest]

If I may add something:

Southern serving Sutton with more than just the hourly Horsham/Dorking service is required, yes. Trains between Sutton and Victoria/Bridge are usually pretty busy. Plus it would be daft not to have the Epsom Downs trains not call at Sutton on their way through!

As far as I'm concerned, all services that exist now are there for a reason. If they weren't useful, I've little doubt that the relevant TOC and the DfT would get rid of them quicker than you can boo!

Which is partly why I defended the Great Malvern to Brighton FGW service on the other thread. So many deem/deemed the service to be pointless at both extremes of that service. Far from it.

I am currently unable to think of a journey with particular hints of pointless-ness. If I think of one, I might add it to this thread.

It should also be said that a pointless journey could apply to most bashes

 

[Mr Spock]

London Overground serving Watford Juntion has been mentioned before due to ticketing implications.

Not sure why this would be deemed to be a pointless journey as the service serves all stations to Euston and they are the only trains to get to some stations i.e. Watford High St just for starters.

 

[Clip]

Do both NXEA and FCC need to serve King's Lynn?

As has been explained above plus its also and excellent alternative when one line has delays/cancellations

 

[Techniquest]

Indeed. I daresay passengers on the West Anglia Main Line would be unamused if they didn't have through services to Kings Lynn. Plus as Clip says, it's got to be rather handy when the ECML is out of action.

 

[Ivo]

My thought was actually the reverse. Why not only have NXEA services serve King's Lynn? As for Sutton, I forgot the Epsom service. D'oh. But what of some of the other services there, such as the Wimbledon Loop?

 

[thefab444]

The Wimbledon loop is served almost entirely by First Capital Connect, do you propose they run fast from West Sutton to Carshalton?

 

[Intercity]

My thought was actually the reverse. Why not only have NXEA services serve King's Lynn?

they used to, but after the stansted link was built they were moved via the ECML to avoid congestion.

 

[Southern]

My thought was actually the reverse. Why not only have NXEA services serve King's Lynn? As for Sutton, I forgot the Epsom service. D'oh. But what of some of the other services there, such as the Wimbledon Loop?

Wimbledon Loop is Morning/Evening Peak Only for Southern. I used one of them in the evening a while ago, didn't seem very well used from Sutton.

 

[Ricardo]

Some have complained that the 4-daily SWT Waterloo-Bristol trains are unnecessary.

*ducks to avoid incoming fire from enraged Bath commuters*

I never said I agreed with them!

To answer the OP's original question, I dont think there are that many truly "unnecessary" routes around these days. Strange, idiosyncratic routes operated twice a day dont tend to jibe well with clockface timetables so most have been removed over the last decade or so. Without wishing to re-ignite the FGW to Brighton debate, this is one of the few good examples of such a service that I can think of in the south of England.

Ivo, you also ask "Is there really any point in having so many different lines in the Blackwater Valley area?". My answer would be "yes". A number of friends live in this area and benefit from direct or one-change services to London, various parts of Surrey and the south-western London suburbs, Reading and Guildford, and parts of north Hampshire. As a result of having a pretty decent level of rail provision on various routes within the local area, they travel quite a lot by train to see friends, go to events, go shopping, etc, despite being from a pretty pro-car background.

The network in that area caters for various local journeys, of the kind that a lot of people living in suburbia make almost as regularly as the commute to London/ other regional centre.

Most settlements have just one station and one railway line, generally with services to one or two destinations predominating. This set-up, to my mind, offers fewer journey opportunities of the kind mentioned, and whilst it may be set up to cater for commuting patterns, does not offer a good alternative to the car for these non-commuting journeys.

 

[wintonian]

Some have complained that the 4-daily SWT Waterloo-Bristol trains are unnecessary.

*ducks to avoid incoming fire from enraged Bath commuters*

I never said I agreed with them!

Ok the commuters explains maybe 1 up and 1 down service. So why do we need the others? Couldn’t we just divert them to Southampton/ Portsmouth for extra capacity? Or what about a Lymington to Salisbury via Chandlers Ford service with occasional extension to Bristol?

Or probably a rather silly idea but by restoring the track at Yeovil Junction and re linking the two lines we could have a Weymouth to Salisbury service reversing at Yeovil Junction.

 

[thefab444]

The late night trip seems to be a bit of a waste of time, but the other three trips should certainly stay.

 

[tbtc]

Some have complained that the 4-daily SWT Waterloo-Bristol trains are unnecessary.

They are. Bristol and Bath (& Westbury) already have perfectly good London services, and any spare DMUs should be used on services from Avonmouth to Southampton, not duplicating London trains.

SWT have more 158/159s than they need, FGW don't have enough. Seems perverse to have SWT running these trains when the only link they offer is London to Bradford on Avon.

 

[Greenback]

Some have complained that the 4-daily SWT Waterloo-Bristol trains are unnecessary.

*ducks to avoid incoming fire from enraged Bath commuters*

I never said I agreed with them!

To answer the OP's original question, I dont think there are that many truly "unnecessary" routes around these days. Strange, idiosyncratic routes operated twice a day dont tend to jibe well with clockface timetables so most have been removed over the last decade or so. Without wishing to re-ignite the FGW to Brighton debate, this is one of the few good examples of such a service that I can think of in the south of England.

Ivo, you also ask "Is there really any point in having so many different lines in the Blackwater Valley area?". My answer would be "yes". A number of friends live in this area and benefit from direct or one-change services to London, various parts of Surrey and the south-western London suburbs, Reading and Guildford, and parts of north Hampshire. As a result of having a pretty decent level of rail provision on various routes within the local area, they travel quite a lot by train to see friends, go to events, go shopping, etc, despite being from a pretty pro-car background.

The network in that area caters for various local journeys, of the kind that a lot of people living in suburbia make almost as regularly as the commute to London/ other regional centre.

Most settlements have just one station and one railway line, generally with services to one or two destinations predominating. This set-up, to my mind, offers fewer journey opportunities of the kind mentioned, and whilst it may be set up to cater for commuting patterns, does not offer a good alternative to the car for these non-commuting journeys.

Some very good points there. Most of the local journeys that people have to do cannot be done by train, no thelped by the drive towards retial parks, out of town ofices and shopping, which are rarely accessible by rail.

The fact remains, though, that idionsycratic services operating twice a day are pretty pointless. Is there any justification for the through HST from Carmarthen to London, except for the fact that on Mondays to Fridays it allows a pleasant way of commuting between Llanelli and Swansea. arriving at 0820? The return service in the evening, has been practically empty whenever I've been on it! I don't expect it to survive the enxt franchise, despite the howls of protest from councillors and 'business leaders'.

They are. Bristol and Bath (& Westbury) already have perfectly good London services, and any spare DMUs should be used on services from Avonmouth to Southampton, not duplicating London trains.

SWT have more 158/159s than they need, FGW don't have enough. Seems perverse to have SWT running these trains when the only link they offer is London to Bradford on Avon.

The arguments in favour of Bristol - Waterloo are that it allows competition on price, provides a through service from places like Trowbridge direct to London, and could be useful for anyone wanting to go south of London. The second two arguments are pretty weak in my book, but there is more to be said for the former.

 

[stut]

The arguments in favour of Bristol - Waterloo are that it allows competition on price, provides a through service from places like Trowbridge direct to London, and could be useful for anyone wanting to go south of London. The second two arguments are pretty weak in my book, but there is more to be said for the former.

I wonder how many people do Bristol - London on these trains, though? I suppose there's the whole Megatrain aspect, but, as comes up many times, just because a service exists doesn't mean that its primary market is from one end of the route to the other.

The SWT service is (IIRC) effectively a split from the Exeter service, so doesn't use up any paths between London and Salisbury. It gives some small towns a direct service to London, and enhances the service between Salisbury and Bristol. On top of that, you can sell Megatrain fares for the more price-sensitive passengers, and give an alternative to an awful coach journey up the M4.

I suspect SWT, if it weren't doing this, would be using the units to reinforce London - Exeter services between London and Salisbury, rather than having them completely freed up.

I struggle to see how this is a bad thing.

 

[Greenback]

I wonder how many people do Bristol - London on these trains, though? I suppose there's the whole Megatrain aspect, but, as comes up many times, just because a service exists doesn't mean that its primary market is from one end of the route to the other.

The SWT service is (IIRC) effectively a split from the Exeter service, so doesn't use up any paths between London and Salisbury. It gives some small towns a direct service to London, and enhances the service between Salisbury and Bristol. On top of that, you can sell Megatrain fares for the more price-sensitive passengers, and give an alternative to an awful coach journey up the M4.

I suspect SWT, if it weren't doing this, would be using the units to reinforce London - Exeter services between London and Salisbury, rather than having them completely freed up.

I struggle to see how this is a bad thing.

I do recognise the arguments in favour of the service, but I remain of the opinion that, in the grand scheme of things, these units would be better transferred to FGW to increase the capapcity of the core Bristol -Southampton route, in conjunction with the withdrawal of the through Brighton trains. This would benefit far more people, and FGW could be made to offer certain numbers of seats to Megatrain (albeit with a change of train) in order to address the competition question.

 

[Techniquest]

You'd be surprised just how many passengers travel to/from London from the Avon and Wiltshire areas on the SWT through runs. A significant number of times I've seen large numbers of reservations at least from Waterloo to Trowbridge, Bradford-on-Avon, Bath and even Bristol. I daresay the price difference is what tempts a lot of people to use them.

I've done Bristol to Waterloo and back using SWT before, using Megatrain though. Would certainly have not gone to London on those days if I'd had to pay the epic ching with FGW!

If SWT didn't see any point in running them, I'm sure by now they'd have gotten on with trying to remove them.

 

[Ricardo]

If anything, SWT have expanded the Salisbury-Bristol service. Wasnt it initially 2 or 3 per day? Its 4 daily now.

So either the demand is there, or the extra ORCATS revenue is proving handy for SWT revenues!

I am neutral to whether or not the service is a good idea, as it provides extra capacity on a busy section of route where there is little potential of relief from FGW, and does open up new journey opportunities, but not on a frequent basis that will truly appeal to a lot of passengers.

I maintain that on most routes passing through reasonably populated areas, an hourly service is about the minimum that will be truly effective and competetive- and there is quite a body of research from the bus industry (which has its similarities to rail) which tend to back this opinion up.

 

[tbtc]

The arguments in favour of Bristol - Waterloo are that it allows competition on price, provides a through service from places like Trowbridge direct to London, and could be useful for anyone wanting to go south of London. The second two arguments are pretty weak in my book, but there is more to be said for the former.

I take your point, but there's no competition between Manchester and London, no competition between Liverpool and London, no competition between Cardiff and London (and only very very minor "competition" between Leeds and London*), so I'm not sure why Bristol is special.

I'd keep the units on the Bristol - Bath - Salisbury route, but just extend them to Southampton (where there is demand and crowding on this "core" section of the Cardiff - Portsmouth route).

* - Of course you could argue that EMT serving Leeds is "pointless" - since its only really to get units to/from Neville Hill.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am neutral to whether or not the service is a good idea, as it provides extra capacity on a busy section of route where there is little potential of relief from FGW,

One reason there's little potential for FGW to provide relief is that they don't have spare units whilst Stagecoach clearly do have spare 158s (to use them to Bristol).

Giving these 158s to FGW would allow them to use them on the Bristol - Bath - Salisbury line, co-ordinated with their existing Cardiff - Portsmouth service (potentially extending the FGW trains to Southampton).

Using the 158s in this way would allow a half hourly Bristol - Southampton service if you cut a couple of the "three car" units down to "two" (since a half hourly "two car" service would be better for most passengers than one "three car" one on the core stretch)

 

[Greenback]

I take your point, but there's no competition between Manchester and London, no competition between Liverpool and London, no competition between Cardiff and London (and only very very minor "competition" between Leeds and London*), so I'm not sure why Bristol is special.

I'd keep the units on the Bristol - Bath - Salisbury route, but just extend them to Southampton (where there is demand and crowding on this "core" section of the Cardiff - Portsmouth route).

* - Of course you could argue that EMT serving Leeds is "pointless" - since its only really to get units to/from Neville Hill.

I agree. I think that the competition on price is the strongest argument for the SWt through trains, but I still think the argument is weak. I would much prefer aditional capacity through to Southampton, with it;s connections to Bournemouth and Poole, rather than the odd through train to Brighton and London. As I said, this would benefit more people, than the handful who would be put off travelling from Trowbridge and the like by the lack of a through train to Waterloo.

 

[moonrakerz]

You'd be surprised just how many passengers travel to/from London from the Avon and Wiltshire areas on the SWT through runs.

I'm not - I live in Warminster !

Not only is it a great service to Waterloo at bargain prices (as low as £6.60 e/w) but I use it if poss to go to Bath or Salisbury, SWT's 159s are in much better nick than FGW's 158s - and the air conditioning usually works too.
My daughter uses it regularly to travel from Kent via Waterloo East as well.

 

[Techniquest]

It is quite a reasonable service, the Advance fares are pretty reasonable on them too. I've yet to get a reasonably priced Advance on them for myself, but I've often found bargain fares for a good friend of mine who uses them whenever he goes to London. No need to faff around with the Tube that way too.

 

[Ricardo]

Does anyone know how the transfer of Eurostar services from Waterloo to St Pancras International affected loadings on the Waterloo-Bristol services?

 

[Meridian richard]

I hate to say it but Grand Central London - Bradford Interchange is always empty and stops all over but no one boards at the stations. Pointless or not?

 

[Capybara]

Does anyone know how the transfer of Eurostar services from Waterloo to St Pancras International affected loadings on the Waterloo-Bristol services?

No, but I can link the two subjects. I have used Waterloo to Bristol before and not because of the fares. I don't believe in advance purchase and go everywhere by whatever savers are these days. And I traveled back to Paddington. The truth is I used it because it was convenient. I live and work close to Waterloo and going by SWT suited me, got me there at about the time I wanted, and didn't involve traipsing across London. Perfect. As for Eurostar, it's all very well saying the move to St Pancras knocked half an hour off the journey to Brussels and Paris but, from a purely selfish point of view, that's not much good if it takes half an hour extra to get to the train in the first place!

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Not pointless service as such but a pointless idea FGW use is the afternoon run that passes my local Trowbridge...makes the effort to stop at the smaller shacks but passes Trowbridge!

Anyone remember the wessex TT that had one season of alternative stops on the Cardiff < - > pompey's? one would stop at Trowbridge and pass Westbury, the next hour did the opposite and so on...that soon changed in the next TT change!