Point to Point Passeneger numbers

[YorkshireBear]

Searching has led me nowhere, is there anywhere that gives passeneger numbers for say, birmingham to leeds. Etc rather than just station useage figures?

Any help appreciated. I have searched all the usual places.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not generally released, as it is commercially sensitive.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Not generally released, as it is commercially sensitive.

Thank you, is there any reason it is commercially sensitive?

 

[142094]

Probably something to do with how the payments are allocated between TOCs under ORCATS. Would be quite useful and interesting info to have if it was released.

 

[Clip]

Probably something to do with how the payments are allocated between TOCs under ORCATS. Would be quite useful and interesting info to have if it was released.

How would you ever find that sort of information useful? What exactly would you do with said information should you have it? Or is this another case of an enthusiast wanting everything bit of info from the railway just to satisfy their hobby?

 

[asylumxl]

How would you ever find that sort of information useful? What exactly would you do with said information should you have it? Or is this another case of an enthusiast wanting everything bit of info from the railway just to satisfy their hobby?

Not really. I think they mean it will be interesting to see how things are divided up between the TOCs. I don't really see why it needs to be commercially sensitive.

 

[Clip]

Not really. I think they mean it will be interesting to see how things are divided up between the TOCs. I don't really see why it needs to be commercially sensitive.

The same reason lots and lots of companies do not put into the public realm how much of each thing they sell over their competitors.

 

[YorkshireBear]

How would you ever find that sort of information useful? What exactly would you do with said information should you have it? Or is this another case of an enthusiast wanting everything bit of info from the railway just to satisfy their hobby?

No to complete a passenger profile for HS2, for a project for uni.

 

[Goatboy]

The same reason lots and lots of companies do not put into the public realm how much of each thing they sell over their competitors.

These companies are presumably not heavily subsidised by the taxpayer, though (Not that I care whether they release such data, just playing devils advocate). If a privately run company is operating privately and independantly in a free market then you'd be absolutely right to make such a point.

Were they a public body you could request this information through a Freedom of Information request, just like you can ask the council how much they spend on X or how much income they receive from Y.

Thats an interesting point - would EC not be covered by FOI?

 

[Bald Rick]

In the same way, getting pax and yield numbers for airlines on any given flow is notoriously difficult; as this helps competitors identify market opportunities.

I guess this is more of an issue with long distance rail operators (and open access).

 

[Goatboy]

In the same way, getting pax and yield numbers for airlines on any given flow is notoriously difficult; as this helps competitors identify market opportunities.

But the two markets are quite different - if a rival rail operator was to identify a potential market opportunity they'd find so much red tape preventing them exploiting it that it wouldn't be bother the bother. They'd also presumably have this information anyway already. It's the heavily regulated and heavily publically funded nature of rail that arguably makes it justifiable for this sort of information to be accessible for all purposes ranging from journalism to research.

People will doubtless argue that coach companies are in theory rivals to rail but for 90% of rail passengers that simply isnt the case. Most people found on trains wouldnt travel by coach even if it was virtually free.

 

[Simon11]

No to complete a passenger profile for HS2, for a project for uni.

How can knowing how many passengers are carried by each toc between birmingham and leeds help with a project on hs2 with pax profiles?

 

[Bald Rick]

But the two markets are quite different - if a rival rail operator was to identify a potential market opportunity they'd find so much red tape preventing them exploiting it that it wouldn't be bother the bother. They'd also presumably have this information anyway already. It's the heavily regulated and heavily publically funded nature of rail that arguably makes it justifiable for this sort of information to be accessible for all purposes ranging from journalism to research.

People will doubtless argue that coach companies are in theory rivals to rail but for 90% of rail passengers that simply isnt the case. Most people found on trains wouldnt travel by coach even if it was virtually free.

Accepted. Although there have been a number of Open Access new entrants. And at least one of them did their sums wrong.

 

[ainsworth74]

Thats an interesting point - would EC not be covered by FOI?

They are and they've been a very useful source of information.

 

[Goatboy]

Accepted. Although there have been a number of Open Access new entrants. And at least one of them did their sums wrong.

And I'd imagine all of them faced restrictions on where they could or couldn't call to avoid upsetting franchise holders

 

[YorkshireBear]

How can knowing how many passengers are carried by each toc between birmingham and leeds help with a project on hs2 with pax profiles?

Didnt ask for each TOC. I just meant general passenger numbers between two points. And it would be useful in terms of modelling demand and therefore deciding frequencies etc.

 

[Clip]

Didnt ask for each TOC. I just meant general passenger numbers between two points. And it would be useful in terms of modelling demand and therefore deciding frequencies etc.

I doubt you would get a true reflection though due to the availability of splitting tickets.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I doubt you would get a true reflection though due to the availability of splitting tickets.

Aye but it is only a uni project anyway.

it doesnt really matter anyway, i am civil engineer not a transport planner, forms a very small part of the project.

 

[142094]

How would you ever find that sort of information useful? What exactly would you do with said information should you have it? Or is this another case of an enthusiast wanting everything bit of info from the railway just to satisfy their hobby?

Touchy aren't we? Perhaps if you'd like to get down from your high horse, then you might realise that this information would have a variety of uses in academic research and urban planning.

You're also forgetting that not everyone on this forum is an enthusiast, and many of us actually work in the industry. I'd certainly find this information useful in my work.

 

[Clip]

Touchy aren't we? Perhaps if you'd like to get down from your high horse, then you might realise that this information would have a variety of uses in academic research and urban planning.

You're also forgetting that not everyone on this forum is an enthusiast, and many of us actually work in the industry. I'd certainly find this information useful in my work.

Im not on my high horse about it at all. Im well aware lots of people work in the industry on this forum thanks.If you dont have access to it then you dont need it.

I cant see what use academic research would do with this nor any urban planners.

Ask your TOC who you work for if they can supply you with the information then and how would it be useful in your work?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Im not on my high horse about it at all. Im well aware lots of people work in the industry on this forum thanks.If you dont have access to it then you dont need it.

I cant see what use academic research would do with this nor any urban planners.

Ask your TOC who you work for if they can supply you with the information then and how would it be useful in your work?

Acedemic research is university based not TOC based, an acedemic is based at a university.

How, just how can travel patterns not be relevant to urban planning or to research done for rail industry? Urban transport planning almost relies entirely on travel patterns!

 

[142094]

There would be quite a few sectors of transport planning and town planning that would find the info useful, particularly for demand forecasting, management and station design. Demand modelling is one part of transport planning which requires accurate historical data to construct and calibrate models. No use trying to model demand on a section of line if all you have is the station usage figures and don't actually know the origin of the passengers for Origin-Destination work. And that is only modelling in its most simplest form.

 

[Clip]

Acedemic research is university based not TOC based, an acedemic is based at a university.

How, just how can travel patterns not be relevant to urban planning or to research done for rail industry? Urban transport planning almost relies entirely on travel patterns!

They could quite easily plan by using entry/exit counts for each station. If people are prepared to do a commute now, now amount of urban planning is going to force them into a move or else they would have moved already.

And thanks for stating the obvious I am well aware that academic research is university based.
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There would be quite a few sectors of transport planning and town planning that would find the info useful, particularly for demand forecasting, management and station design. Demand modelling is one part of transport planning which requires accurate historical data to construct and calibrate models. No use trying to model demand on a section of line if all you have is the station usage figures and don't actually know the origin of the passengers for Origin-Destination work. And that is only modelling in its most simplest form.

But why not use station figures if they are there arlready?

What do you think NR use to plan station upgrades and station expansions and line improvements from say, single to double? Do you think they just pluck fiures out the air?



And again, what use would this have in your job within the industry?

 

[142094]

But why not use station figures if they are there arlready?

What do you think NR use to plan station upgrades and station expansions and line improvements from say, single to double? Do you think they just pluck fiures out the air?



And again, what use would this have in your job within the industry?

You obviously are missing the point, or have no idea what demand planning is about. There is no use in having station usage figures if you don't know where people are travelling from. You are focussing on a station, but how about a section of line with a few stations in between?

Network Rail already will have these figures, no doubt they'll get updates a frequent intervals, such as for planning possessions.

Any information regarding station usage and flow generators/attractors would be beneficial in what I do on a day to day basis.

 

[YorkshireBear]

They could quite easily plan by using entry/exit counts for each station. If people are prepared to do a commute now, now amount of urban planning is going to force them into a move or else they would have moved already.

And thanks for stating the obvious I am well aware that academic research is university based.
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But why not use station figures if they are there arlready?

What do you think NR use to plan station upgrades and station expansions and line improvements from say, single to double? Do you think they just pluck fiures out the air?



And again, what use would this have in your job within the industry?

But that does not give any indication on where people are coming from. You are aware that Urban does not just mean city centre? Urban is the entire city, so for leeds journeys from bradford, castleford, horsforth and other stations are also important, station usage figures give no indication of this whatsoever. We dont mean transport planning as in the paths round the station we mean the wider area and infact the country. If i knew that 0 people travelled Leeds to Harrogate, you would question whether Harrogate needs the direct link. This data is not avaliable from station useage as lots of people could catch the train from harrogate to Horsforth and York. And similarly loads of people could use the train from Leeds to Manchester and London.

 

[Clip]

But that does not give any indication on where people are coming from. You are aware that Urban does not just mean city centre? Urban is the entire city, so for leeds journeys from bradford, castleford, horsforth and other stations are also important, station usage figures give no indication of this whatsoever. We dont mean transport planning as in the paths round the station we mean the wider area and infact the country. If i knew that 0 people travelled Leeds to Harrogate, you would question whether Harrogate needs the direct link. This data is not avaliable from station useage as lots of people could catch the train from harrogate to Horsforth and York. And similarly loads of people could use the train from Leeds to Manchester and London.

Again thanks for stating the obvious.

It appears that 'Urban planning' or anything else you two are on about has done just well for the last 100 years or so without the figures so why the urge now?

Any information regarding station usage and flow generators/attractors would be beneficial in what I do on a day to day basis.

Which is? Anyone from planning in my TOC can get access to the figures right away and they dont even have to ask me. And not once in over 10 years of station management have I ever had a member of staff tell me these figures would assit them in doing their job.

So what is your job and why would you need them and what would you use them for?

And why are you not asking your TOC for them if it is going to help you in your job? Which is why I simply dont believe you when you say they would help you.

 

[142094]

Ah yes I'm forgetting 100 years ago we had things such as computers and modelling programmes which require past data to work correctly.

Which is? Anyone from planning in my TOC can get access to the figures right away and they dont even have to ask me. And not once in over 10 years of station management have I ever had a member of staff tell me these figures would assit them in doing their job.

I find that rather suprising. Perhaps whatever job you are employed to do is either very centrally focussed on one station (and therefore you do not look at the wider picture), or it isn't high level enough. If anyone from your TOC planning department can access the information right away without asking you, surely that is indicating something?

Two instances I can think of where it would have been benefical recently for me and my department include determining where staff should be deployed to maximise the use of resources on a particular section of line, and several factors when planning around engineering possessions.

 

[Clip]

Ah yes I'm forgetting 100 years ago we had things such as computers and modelling programmes which require past data to work correctly.



I find that rather suprising. Perhaps whatever job you are employed to do is either very centrally focussed on one station (and therefore you do not look at the wider picture), or it isn't high level enough. If anyone from your TOC planning department can access the information right away without asking you, surely that is indicating something?

Two instances I can think of where it would have been benefical recently for me and my department include determining where staff should be deployed to maximise the use of resources on a particular section of line, and several factors when planning around engineering possessions.

Ive been a group station manager for the last 5/6 years thanks - they dont have to ask for it from me as they have access themselves so I dont get taken away from my job and its me and the timetable planners who organise any extra staffing needs - be that events or engineering work. I dont need passenger numbers to do that - its called experience.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Well you seem to be missing the other obvious stuff just thought i should check.

They have used these figures for last 100 years! They are just no longer publically avaliable. And have they done so well when the figures weren't so accurate? we seem to have a lot of problems with transport in urban areas!
If you are not involved in urban planning how do you know how useful the figures are?
Forgive me but i get the impression you work in a station whereas i do studies for urban transport plannning and some work for councils.
I wanted them for a university project, so as i do not work for a TOC can not get them. What would i use them for? Calculating the journeys between certain regional centres to get a picture of demand for travel along proposed HS2 corridor.
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Ive been a group station manager for the last 5/6 years thanks - they dont have to ask for it from me as they have access themselves so I dont get taken away from my job and its me and the timetable planners who organise any extra staffing needs - be that events or engineering work. I dont need passenger numbers to do that - its called experience.

You dont need them. Congratulations, other people who do different jobs do. Experience cant tell you everything when looking at regional transport patterns.

 

[142094]

But unfortunately experience alone will not help you predict what will happen in the future. Having raw data to generate actual outputs and likely scenarios will. I'm sure most people will be able to plan days/weeks/months in advance, but if we're talking long term you need to be doing other things compared to relying solely on experience.