Plymouth Bus War (incl Go Cornwall Bus) - It's back on

[Rich McLean]

Ok, so the old thread died, but it seems things are starting to heat up again. Some big changed (again) from PCB.

I will post the Vosa applications, kindly compiled by Graham over at Plymothian Transit
http://www.plymothiantransit.com/2015/02/numbers-lots-of-new-numbers.html

PH0000135/1 - PLYMOUTH CITYBUS LTD, MILEHOUSE, MILEHOUSE ROAD, PLYMOUTH, PL3 4AA
Variation Accepted: Operating between PLYMOUTH Royal Parade and KINGS TAMERTON Steph.Way
given service number 16 effective from 12-Apr-2015.
To amend Route and Timetable.

PH0000135/9 - PLYMOUTH CITYBUS LTD, MILEHOUSE, MILEHOUSE ROAD, PLYMOUTH, PL3 4AA
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between PLYMOUTH Royal Parade and PLYMOUTH Royal Parade
given service number 43 effective from 12-Apr-2015.

PH0000135/13 - PLYMOUTH CITYBUS LTD, MILEHOUSE, MILEHOUSE ROAD, PLYMOUTH, PL3 4AA
Variation Accepted: Operating between PLYMOUTH Royal Parade and DERRIFORD Hospital
given service number 50 effective from 12-Apr-2015.
To amend Route and Timetable.

43 from Royal Parade to Ernesettle to become the 50, becoming a cross city route. I expect this to be another "Flash" branded route

PH0000135/76 - PLYMOUTH CITYBUS LTD, MILEHOUSE, MILEHOUSE ROAD, PLYMOUTH, PL3 4AA
Variation Accepted: Operating between ROYAL PARADE and DERRIFORD HOSPITAL
given service number 51/51A effective from 12-Apr-2015.
To amend Timetable.

29/29A becomes the 51/51A. I will explain why in a bit.

PH0000135/94 - PLYMOUTH CITYBUS LTD, MILEHOUSE, MILEHOUSE ROAD, PLYMOUTH, PL3 4AA
Variation Accepted: Operating between Saltash, Oaklands Green and Eldburton, Blackstone Close
given service number 5/5A effective from 12-Apr-2015.
To amend Route and Timetable.

PH0000135/100 - PLYMOUTH CITYBUS LTD, MILEHOUSE, MILEHOUSE ROAD, PLYMOUTH, PL3 4AA
Variation Accepted: Operating between St Budeaux, Square and St Budeaux, Square
given service number 21/21A effective from 12-Apr-2015.
To amend Timetable.

PH0000135/148 - PLYMOUTH CITYBUS LTD, MILEHOUSE, MILEHOUSE ROAD, PLYMOUTH, PL3 4AA
Variation Accepted: Operating between Plymouth, Royal Parade and Plymouth, Royal Parade
given service number 33/33A effective from 12-Apr-2015.
To amend Route and Timetable.

PH0000135/154 - PLYMOUTH CITYBUS LTD, MILEHOUSE, MILEHOUSE ROAD, PLYMOUTH, PL3 4AA
Variation Accepted: Operating between PLYMOUTH ROYAL PARADE and TAVISTOCK BUS STATION
given service number 46/46A/46B effective from 12-Apr-2015.
To amend Timetable.

PH0000135/155 - PLYMOUTH CITYBUS LTD, MILEHOUSE, MILEHOUSE ROAD, PLYMOUTH, PL3 4AA
Variation Accepted: Operating between TAVISTOCK BUS STATION and WEST ST, OKEHAMPTON
given service number 46 effective from 12-Apr-2015.
To amend Timetable.

46/46A/46B formerly the 11/11A/11B.

PH0000135/160 - PLYMOUTH CITYBUS LTD, MILEHOUSE, MILEHOUSE ROAD, PLYMOUTH, PL3 4AA
Variation Accepted: Operating between Callington, New Road and Tavistock Bus Station
given service number 79/79A effective from 12-Apr-2015.
To amend Route and Timetable.

PH0000135/161 - PLYMOUTH CITYBUS LTD, MILEHOUSE, MILEHOUSE ROAD, PLYMOUTH, PL3 4AA
Variation Accepted: Operating between Launceston, Westgate Street and Bude, The Strand
given service number 12 effective from 12-Apr-2015.
To amend Timetable.

PH0000135/162 - PLYMOUTH CITYBUS LTD, MILEHOUSE, MILEHOUSE ROAD, PLYMOUTH, PL3 4AA
Variation Accepted: Operating between Plymouth, Royal Parade and Launceston, Westgate Street
given service number 12 effective from 12-Apr-2015.
To amend Route and Timetable.

PH0000135/163 - PLYMOUTH CITYBUS LTD, MILEHOUSE, MILEHOUSE ROAD, PLYMOUTH, PL3 4AA
Variation Accepted: Operating between Liskeard, Barras Street and Polperro, Crumplehorn
given service number 73 effective from 12-Apr-2015.
To amend Route and Timetable.
No such problems changing this from the 573

PH0000135/164 - PLYMOUTH CITYBUS LTD, MILEHOUSE, MILEHOUSE ROAD, PLYMOUTH, PL3 4AA
Variation Accepted: Operating between Plymouth, Royal Parade and West Looe given service number 72
effective from 12-Apr-2015.
To amend Route and Timetable.
And this one back to the 72 from WG 572

PH0000135/165 - PLYMOUTH CITYBUS LTD, MILEHOUSE, MILEHOUSE ROAD, PLYMOUTH, PL3 4AA
Variation Accepted: Operating between Liskeard, Barras Street and Callington, New Road
given service number 74 effective from 12-Apr-2015.
To amend Timetable.
And this one back to the 74 from WG 574

PH0000135/166 - PLYMOUTH CITYBUS LTD, MILEHOUSE, MILEHOUSE ROAD, PLYMOUTH, PL3 4AA
Variation Accepted: Operating between Plymouth, Royal Parade and Liskeard, Ballas Street
given service number 11 effective from 12-Apr-2015.
To amend Route and Timetable.

A quick run down,
The 12 is renumbered from the 576. PCB can't use the 76 as First still run that route (same route more or less)
573 becomes the 73
572 becomes the 72
574 becomes the 74
593 becomes the 11

Most route numbers have been changed, in order to have similar number services serving the same main corridors. ie 10/11/12 to cornwall via Saltash.
Anything with a 40 via Derriford
I expect a press release will go into more detail

Now the fun begins

PH0000135/168 - PLYMOUTH CITYBUS LTD, MILEHOUSE, MILEHOUSE ROAD, PLYMOUTH, PL3 4AA
Registration Accepted
Starting Point: PLYMOUTH, ROYAL PARADE
Finish Point: MOUNT BATTEN
Via:
Service Number: 4
Service Type: Normal Stopping
Effective Date: 12-APR-2015
Other Details: DAILY (EXCEPT XMAS DAY, BOXING DAY AND NEW YEARS DAY)

This is in direct competition with First service 2. One of First's major flagship routes in Plymouth. This will be an interesting watch, and I expect flash new buses to be put onto this route.

Registration Accepted
Starting Point: PLYMOUTH, ROYAL PARADE
Finish Point: PLYMOUTH, ROYAL PARADE
Via:
Service Number: 10
Service Type: Normal Stopping
Effective Date: 12-APR-2015
Other Details: DAILY (EXCEPT CHRISTMAS, BOXING AND NEW YEARS DAY)

It seems this will be going into Saltash, to provide a bus every 20 minutes between the 10/11/12. It also seems the 5/5A will come out of Saltash as a result.

I expect a backlash from first regarding Plymstock, with a major route being launched dreckly.

 

[Robertj21a]

Is this in the wrong thread ?

 

[Rich McLean]

Yep wrong forum, my mistake as had two windows open.

Mods - Could this be moved please. Apologies

EDIT: Many Thanks for a swift move

I will try and keep this updated

 

[Busaholic]

Wonder about the wisdom of scuppering the well-known and long-established 43 route number, quite apart from subjecting the buses on 'new' route 50 to traffic delays in different parts of the city. I can see the superficial attraction of providing a direct Derriford service from different parts of Plymouth but sometimed these ideals need sacrificing for the common good i.e. the majority of passengers from Ernesettle just needing a reliable service into and out of the city.

 

[plymothian]

It's not about providing through service from Ernesettle to Derriford as travelling it end to end would take too long to make it worthwhile as a trip, changing at Royal Parade reduces the journey time.
All it's about is PCB's move away from radial routes to east-west through routes, and their reasons for doing so no one knows. They started with Red Flash 21/A Barne Barton - Plympton, then the 5/A Saltash - Plymstock (non flashed), now the 50 (something Flash).

There are some 'unofficial' through routes that are not advertised eg 8/9-23/24, 29/A-34, 16-35.

Where as in contrast First moved away from through routes to radial (except where the route number changes eg 2-3/A).

The new 4 has been on the cards for a while and I'm surprised it's taken so long. Be interesting to see the route as I believe the changes to 5/A to pull it out of Oreston, Billacombe and Horn Cross Road was a big mistake.

 

[Busaholic]

It's not about providing through service from Ernesettle to Derriford as travelling it end to end would take too long to make it worthwhile as a trip, changing at Royal Parade reduces the journey time.
All it's about is PCB's move away from radial routes to east-west through routes, and their reasons for doing so no one knows. They started with Red Flash 21/A Barne Barton - Plympton, then the 5/A Saltash - Plymstock (non flashed), now the 50 (something Flash).

There are some 'unofficial' through routes that are not advertised eg 8/9-23/24, 29/A-34, 16-35.

Where as in contrast First moved away from through routes to radial (except where the route number changes eg 2-3/A).

The new 4 has been on the cards for a while and I'm surprised it's taken so long. Be interesting to see the route as I believe the changes to 5/A to pull it out of Oreston, Billacombe and Horn Cross Road was a big mistake.

So who's right, First or Citybus? Are 'through' routes feasible any longer in a place like Plymouth and how many people are able to take advantage in a meaningful way, given your comments on people out Ernesettle way going to Derriford? How many buses/drivers can be saved by these changes, if any, because otherwise it seems a spurious exercise, unless there is some pressure being applied to the number of buses 'on stand' at any one time in Plymouth centre. In other words, is it Plymouth Citybus doing a spot of sabre rattling in what was becoming a stalemate in a phoney war?

 

[plymothian]

In fact, sorry I forgot, Ernesettle - Derriford journeys would not even touch the city centre as people change at the top of the estate on to the 29.

I really don't know whey PCB have gone to through routing, it doesn't decrease the number of buses or drivers, or free up stops on Royal Parade as there needs to be an appropriate amount of time for recovery on either half.

The through routes have distinct flows. Take the 21/A, the main flows are city - Plympton and city - Barne Barton with a much smaller end-end through flow. The 5/A through flow tends to be Plymstock - Rail station/Life centre, but again changing at Royal Parade gives a quicker journey due to the layover time.

The primary end-end flows are free bus passes eg a Saltash pensioner might go to the Range or Morrisons in Plymstock; or Devonport pensioner might go to Sainsbury's at Marsh Mills or Plympton - Cumberland Centre.

The only real time a significant through flow happens is at peak times to/from the dockyard and school journeys.

The only benefit I can see of the Ernesettle - Derriford 50 link is Ford - ASDA and Estover - Rail station/Life centre.

The pressure on Royal Parade is getting to breaking point, and more so now Bretonside is going to close; the through routes do not address this due to the need for recovery and loading times, which is needed with through routes to minimise delays on one half that occurred on the other. PCC's running down of the bus station has lead to this situation; if it doesn't go from Royal Parade, the service doesn't exist. (But this is another topic)

The only over all reason I can see for through routing is the branding and the pensioner whinge that gets in to the paper when their direct link to anywhere (even if they don't use it) disappears (have they started on the loss of Mayflower Street on the 50 yet?).

 

[Busaholic]

Thank you, Plymothian, that was a very interesting posting. Unfortunately my visits to Plymouth, which used to be exceedingly regular, are now few and far between. I am following the saga of Bretonside when I can on Plymouth Herald's exceedingly irritating website and, as unfortunately so often the case nowadays, you wonder what the council's agenda is, because the bus and coach passenger is not at the forefront of their concerns.

 

[Deerfold]

46/46A/46B formally the 11/11A/11B.

I'm guessing that's "formerly" otherwise that could be very confusing.

 

[Rich McLean]

More detail about the up and coming changes

http://www.plymouthbus.co.uk/about-us/news/service-change-12th-april-2015

PLYMSTOCK SERVICES

The below service 4/4A and 5/5A all both operate between Royal Parade and Plymstock Broadway providing an up to every 7 minute frequency.

Services 4 & 4A (NEW SERVICE)

City Centre – Plymstock – Hooe – Mount Batten

Service 4 operates up to every 30 mins via Billacombe, serving the entrance to the development at Saltram Meadow, Plymstock School, Plymstock Broadway, Goosewell and Hooe.

Service 4A operates up to every 30 mins via Oreston, and serves Plymstock Broadway, Goosewell and Hooe.

Services 5 & 5A

Plymstock – City Centre

Frequency to Elburton and Staddiscombe now up to every 30 mins each. The afternoon diversion to Plymstock School is removed.

SALTASH SERVICES

The below services 10/10A, 11 & 12 all operate commonly between Royal Parade and Fore Street, Saltash providing an up to every 7 minute frequency in both directions.

Both service 11 and 12 will serve Callington Road, providing a 15 minute service on Callington Road, as 10/10A will not serve Callington Road.

Services 10 & 10A

This replaces the current 5/5A City Centre to Saltash section.

All journeys follow current 5 route outbound to Oaklands Green, and current 5A route inbound up to every 15 mins. 10 operates clockwise on Yellowtor loop, and 10A anticlockwise. Callington Road is now served by services 11/12 below.

Service 11

This replaces the current 593.

Half hourly service Plymouth to Liskeard via Saltash. Alternate journeys continue to Looe & Polperro as service 72.

Service 12

This replaces the current 576

Half hourly Plymouth to Callington via Saltash, hourly Plymouth onto Launceston, and roughly 2 hourly onto Bude.

OTHER SERVICES

Service 16

Departs from Royal Parade A1. Outbound serves Western Approach and inbound serves Cobourg Street and Viaduct. Monday to Saturday now up to every 20 minutes, Sunday up to every 30 minutes.

Services 21 & 21A

Monday to Saturday early morning and early evening revisions to improve pacing.

Service 22

New 7 day service, 1 journey each way a day from Milehouse to Langage via St Budeaux, Crownhill & Eggbuckland. Starts 1st April, funded by EE for its staff, but is open to all fare paying passengers.

Service 27 / 28/A/B

These services will now depart Royal Parade from stop A17, previously A11. No other changes.

Service 33

Departs from Royal Parade A1 . Outbound serves Western Approach and inbound serves Cobourg Street and Viaduct. Monday to Saturday now up to every 20 minutes, Sunday up to every 30 minutes.

Services 34 & 34A

Increased frequency to Royal William Yard

Additional journeys 7 days a week between Royal William Yard and Royal Parade. Additional journeys between Royal William Yard and Derriford via Milehouse on Sundays only. Partly funded by Urban Splash and Plymouth City Council.

RENUMBERED SERVICES

Services 51/51A

Current service 29/29A

Revised running times between Holly Park and West Park. Services in Victoria Road will now be either 50 or 51/51A.

Service 46

Current service 11

Revised running times between Peter Tavy & Okehampton.

Service 50

New cross city route, current 43 and 50 combined

Revised running times. Current 43 / 50 route to be run by new double deck buses, currently on order.

GO CORNWALL BUS

Service 11

Current service 593

Half hourly service Plymouth to Liskeard. Alternate journeys continue to Looe & Polperro as service 72.

In Saltash both service 11 and 12 will serve Fore Street and Callington Road, providing a 15 minute service on Callington Road.

Service 12

Current service 576

Half hourly Plymouth to Callington, hourly Plymouth onto Launceston, and roughly 2 hourly onto Bude.

Most journeys ending in Callington work through onto services 79/79A. No longer serves St Dominick or Downgate, see service 78.

In Saltash both service 11 and 12 will serve Fore Street and Callington Road, providing a 15 minute service on Callington Road.

Service 72

Current service 572

Operates via Devonport to provide a Saltash to Devonport link. In Saltash, serves North Road and New Road, not Callington Road and Grenfell Avenue.

Inbound services through St Germans follow the B3249 to the A38 at Heskyn Mill, left onto A38,around Trerulefoot roundabout.

No longer serves Hannafore and Pelynt (see service 73), now serves Camping Caradon.

Some services operate via Trerulefoot instead of St Germans to enable double decks to be used if required.

Service 73

Current 573

Now serves Hannafore and Pelynt. Most journeys continue from Liskeard to Plymouth via Saltash as service 11.

Service 74

Current 574

Some frequencies reduced to every two hours to improve reliability and provide resource for service 78.

Service 78 (NEW SERVICE)

New service linking Stoke Climsland, Downgate and St Dominick to Callington, taking in part of the Callington town service form 79/79A.

Services 79 & 79A

Loses northern part of Callington town service (see above), and works through into Plymouth via Saltash as service 12.

The service cuts to make room for others we knew was on the cards.

 

[plymothian]

So buggering up the original 5/A by pulling them out of Oreston and Billacombe, and extending to Saltash has been "repaired" by the new 4/A and removing Saltash.

They should have listened to the 5/A drivers in the first place.

 

[DaveHarries]

The new deckers for the 50 will, I suspect, be E400 MMC unless ADL are still providing E400s with the old frontage.

Dave