PlusBus Tickets

[markymark2000]

The keys are retailer specific, but they're all held together in a central RDG system.

Ticketer and other companies can get access to this system, but I believe originally they were not appropriately informed about how often updates happen, and I think the initial rollout also started with an already outdated list of keys.

Thank you. Where do the RDG keys then go? To the bus operators themselves or does it go to a central system for the ticket machine suppliers? If the former, are these operators messing around getting keys for each individual zone?

I'm trying to work out how much effort is this for operators and are some of them going to bother if it's for an area that they barely serve. Purely for example, High Peak and Belle Vue would have to set up 7 different Manchester zones because each of the tickets is PTE wide. Also instances like Swindon Bus which only run the shopper bus into Bath, if it's hassle for them to set up for a single infrequent route, they won't do it. There will be many more instances but you get the idea.

 

[Haywain]

Are you sure?

New digital PlusBus ticket enables seamless rail and bus travel | Rail Delivery Group News

News from Rail Delivery Group

media.raildeliverygroup.com

"PlusBus is a rail ticket add-on that allows unlimited travel on most buses and trams within each PlusBus zone"

Yes, I am sure. You clearly struggle with "most buses" and "within each PlusBus zone" being clearly linked.

 

[Adam Williams]

Thank you. Where do the RDG keys then go? To the bus operators themselves or does it go to a central system for the ticket machine suppliers? If the former, are these operators messing around getting keys for each individual zone?

I'm trying to work out how much effort is this for operators and are some of them going to bother if it's for an area that they barely serve. Purely for example, High Peak and Belle Vue would have to set up 7 different Manchester zones because each of the tickets is PTE wide. Also instances like Swindon Bus which only run the shopper bus into Bath, if it's hassle for them to set up for a single infrequent route, they won't do it. There will be many more instances but you get the idea.

The suppliers like Ticketer and Transmach have access to the repository of public keys. The bus operators don't directly deal with this, it's done by the ETM vendors. They're supposed to refresh from it every day.

In reality, what appears to have happened for Ticketer is that each operator-area has its own configuration profile of some sort which has its own keyset, which appears to have been years stale in many cases. These profiles can be updated, and I've gotten Ticketer to update it on request for problematic areas, but it has to be done for each area one at a time.

 

[jon0844]

And in other news, Amstrad has launched its new "e-m@iler" phone. It's amazing what they can do, these days, isn't it?

You're fired!

 

[markymark2000]

Yes, I am sure. You clearly struggle with "most buses" and "within each PlusBus zone" being clearly linked.

No, I'm not struggling.

Wrexham only 2 operators out of 7 accept the ticket
Bangor only 1 operator out of 6 accepts the ticket
Dumfries only 2 operators (who each run 1 route each) out of 6 accept.
St Helens has only 2 operators out of 9 operators who run within the zone accept the ticket
Preston only 3 out of the 7 operators accept
Worcester has only 1 operator out of 5 accept
Shrewsbury only 1 out of 6 operators accept


Just for clarity, the number of accepting operators is based on the information displayed on the Plusbus website and I have excluded operators from the figure where they are ceased or no longer operate within the zone. For the number of operator in the zone, I am only including normal local bus operators running normal local bus services, it does not include community bus or school bus only operators.

Some zones yes it is "most buses" I do not dispute that at all, but I think there needs to be an acknowledgement to the fact that there are a number of zones where it's not "most buses" but actually "many buses" and in some cases "some buses" in each zone.

 

[Deerfold]

Are you sure?

New digital PlusBus ticket enables seamless rail and bus travel | Rail Delivery Group News

News from Rail Delivery Group

media.raildeliverygroup.com

"PlusBus is a rail ticket add-on that allows unlimited travel on most buses and trams within each PlusBus zone"

It only reads like that if you assume that most buses are within a Plusbus zone.

Is is very easy to make that assumption from the way it's written, bit that's not true.

 

[markymark2000]

It only reads like that if you assume that most buses are within a Plusbus zone.

Is is very easy to make that assumption from the way it's written, bit that's not true.

I accept that I worded my original reply poorly. I was meaning it in relation to it's not always valid on most buses within a Plusbus Zone (per post 394)

 

[Haywain]

Wrexham only 2 operators out of 7 accept the ticket
Bangor only 1 operator out of 6 accepts the ticket
Dumfries only 2 operators (who each run 1 route each) out of 6 accept.
St Helens has only 2 operators out of 9 operators who run within the zone accept the ticket
Preston only 3 out of the 7 operators accept
Worcester has only 1 operator out of 5 accept
Shrewsbury only 1 out of 6 operators accept


Just for clarity, the number of accepting operators is based on the information displayed on the Plusbus website and I have excluded operators from the figure where they are ceased or no longer operate within the zone. For the number of operator in the zone, I am only including normal local bus operators running normal local bus services, it does not include community bus or school bus only operators.

Some zones yes it is "most buses" I do not dispute that at all, but I think there needs to be an acknowledgement to the fact that there are a number of zones where it's not "most buses" but actually "many buses" and in some cases "some buses" in each zone.

Again, what PlusBus are saying is most buses, not most bus operators, and in 6 of the 7 examples you have given* the operators accepting PlusBus appear to be operating the majority of the bus services (Dumfries is an outlier with only 1 operator accepting PlusBus, and only operating 1 route).


*The numbers of operators you claim are showing on the PlusBus website are different to what I see.

 

[markymark2000]

Again, what PlusBus are saying is most buses, not most bus operators, and in 6 of the 7 examples you have given* the operators accepting PlusBus appear to be operating the majority of the bus services (Dumfries is an outlier with only 1 operator
accepting PlusBus, and only operating 1 route).

To be valid on most buses, logically it also needs to be valid on most operators. And while yes Plusbus may normally have a larger operator onboard in each zone, it still can't reasonably count as 'most buses' when there are still so many in the zone that don't accept. This is also how passengers see ticket acceptance for multi modal tickets, not at a route level but at an operator level. If you promote a ticket for an area with 5 operators, and then say it's not valid on A, B, C or D then ask someone 'is this ticket valid on most operators', I can tell you what the answer will be!

"many buses and trams in each zone" would far better reflect the realities of the overall Plusbus acceptance.
"some buses and trams in each zone" would reflect the realities of scanning onboard the accepting operators.

*The numbers of operators you claim are showing on the PlusBus website are different to what I see.

I refer you to this sentence in the post you quoted.....

Just for clarity, the number of accepting operators is based on the information displayed on the Plusbus website and I have excluded operators from the figure where they are ceased or no longer operate within the zone.

So for example, Arriva Midlands is listed as accepting the Wrexham Plusbus, how can they accept the ticket that is only valid in an area which they do not operate? For the same reasons, I ignored Stagecoach Cumbria in the St Helens zone and I ignored Blackpool Transport and Stagecoach Merseyside in the Preston zone.

In Dumfries case I gave the benefit of the doubt with Stagecoach Cumbria for the 79 service as I believe the ticket is valid on there but just missing from the Plusbus site, hence stating 2 operators.

The suppliers like Ticketer and Transmach have access to the repository of public keys. The bus operators don't directly deal with this, it's done by the ETM vendors. They're supposed to refresh from it every day.

In reality, what appears to have happened for Ticketer is that each operator-area has its own configuration profile of some sort which has its own keyset, which appears to have been years stale in many cases. These profiles can be updated, and I've gotten Ticketer to update it on request for problematic areas, but it has to be done for each area one at a time.

Thank you for this information. Very helpful to understand how some of it works.

It'd certainly be interesting to learn some more of the behind the scenes workings on this to understand what data Ticketer are using to set up the zones and add operators etc. Especially given the Plusbus website can give outdated zone information sometimes and it was has been previously acknowledged by Plusbus at meetings that the Plusbus Naptan isn't reliable either (though this was said about a year or two ago and so may have been sorted. I can't for the life of me remember whether it was at a PTIC or Naptan meeting though)

 

[ChilliSauce]

I think the key is you have to know the bus operator that you are going to want to use before purchase of the plusbus ...

South Yorkshire Area (Sheffield / Doncaster / Barnsley plus bus tickets) on the plusbus web site has a long list of operators .. but that doesn't mean it's all operators in South Yorkshire .

Note that the Sheffield Tram is also included.

And if the bus operator crosses the border into another Plus Bus area I assume it's only valid to the boundary ... I.e. Globe Holidays run a Barnsley - Wakefield service .. so that what need plus buses for both South & West Yorkshire.

 

[markymark2000]

Again, what PlusBus are saying is most buses, not most bus operators, and in 6 of the 7 examples you have given* the operators accepting PlusBus appear to be operating the majority of the bus services (Dumfries is an outlier with only 1 operator accepting PlusBus, and only operating 1 route).

To be valid on 'most buses' it would logically also have to be valid on most operators. With this kind of multi operator ticket (which it largely is, not many regions are just a single operator), people see the acceptance as an operator by operator basis, not per route. If you have a town of 5 or 6 operators and 4 don't accept, people will logically conclude that does not count as 'most buses'. The general public aren't say there working out the operated mileage percentage of each operator, and the claim from Traveline very much relies on that technicality, and it feels disingenuous to keep pushing the claim.

I stress that Dumfries is far from the only area with poor acceptance which is a million miles from 'most buses' but it's one example that I have noticed more recently.

I struggle to see why they can't just be fully honest and say it's accepted on MANY buses, and scans on SOME buses within each zone.
That said, given the large amount of inaccurate information on their website, I'm not overly surprised. They couldn't give a flying monkey about being accuracy and being honest with people.

*The numbers of operators you claim are showing on the PlusBus website are different to what I see.

As I put in my post, and you quoted, the number that I give for operators accepting Plusbus, I have ignored where operators do not operate within the zone since how can someone accept the ticket when they do not operate within the zone? These examples being Arriva Midlands in Wrexham, Stagecoach Cumbria in the St Helens zone and Stagecoach Merseyside & Blackpool Transport in the Preston zone.

The Dumfries zone I have been generous and taken into account Stagecoach Cumbria who run the 79 into Dumfries and I believe is included in the scheme but not listed on the website.

The suppliers like Ticketer and Transmach have access to the repository of public keys. The bus operators don't directly deal with this, it's done by the ETM vendors. They're supposed to refresh from it every day.

In reality, what appears to have happened for Ticketer is that each operator-area has its own configuration profile of some sort which has its own keyset, which appears to have been years stale in many cases. These profiles can be updated, and I've gotten Ticketer to update it on request for problematic areas, but it has to be done for each area one at a time.

Thank you for your information. It's very helpful and certainly helps to understand some of the goings on.

 

[TheSel]

I refer you to this sentence in the post you quoted.....

So for example, Arriva Midlands is listed as accepting the Wrexham Plusbus, how can they accept the ticket that is only valid in an area which they do not operate?

This is a legacy from when the 2 / 2A (linking Wrexham and Ruabon [within the Plus Bus Area and on which the ticket is valid] - with Oswestry [not within the area]) was operated by Arriva Midlands' Oswestry depot.

The routes still run, but now operated by Arriva Wales from Wrexham. In some case using the very same buses, which were transferred with the work.

 

[Deerfold]

To be valid on 'most buses' it would logically also have to be valid on most operators.

That doesn't follow in many areas.

With this kind of multi operator ticket (which it largely is, not many regions are just a single operator), people see the acceptance as an operator by operator basis, not per route.

In a lot of regions one operator runs more than half the bus services

 

[markymark2000]

This is a legacy from when the 2 / 2A (linking Wrexham and Ruabon [within the Plus Bus Area and on which the ticket is valid] - with Oswestry [not within the area]) was operated by Arriva Midlands' Oswestry depot.

I appreciate that and agree that it was perhaps right whenever the page was last updated but it wouldn't right for me to include that in operators who do accept the ticket when they currently don't.

That said, given this change happened nearly 3 years ago, there has been plenty of time for this to have been corrected. Just more evidence of Traveline and RDGs lack of care for the scheme and just persistently pumping out incorrect information.

 

[Mikey C]

PlusBus High Wycombe PlusBus

With a High Wycombe PlusBus ticket, you can enjoy unlimited bus travel across the local area on all participating operators' services

www.plusbus.info

I bought a plusbus in High Wycombe the other day. I was surprised by the map showing where it is valid, which is a strangely shaped area missing out Marlow and Marlow Bottom, but including Bourne End, which is actually further away from Wycombe than many of the areas excluded.

Clearly it's been done like this to remove the very popular Wycombe to Marlow 850 corridor, but also strange is that Lane End is included, but Wycombe Air Park isn't, as the only bus from Wycombe to Lane End (the Carousel 34) goes past Wycombe Air Park.

 

[MrJeeves]

Clearly it's been done like this to remove the very popular Wycombe to Marlow 850 corridor, but also strange is that Lane End is included, but Wycombe Air Park isn't, as the only bus from Wycombe to Lane End (the Carousel 34) goes past Wycombe Air Park.

It's worth also pointing out, on this note, that GWR offers through rail fares to High Wycombe on the bus link from either Marlow or Bourne End (though I don't remember which).

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks. Full details of all British rail fares shown, with built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

 

[RT4038]

To be valid on 'most buses' it would logically also have to be valid on most operators.

Not necessarily. An area might be dominated by one or two operators, with the others maybe only operating what are effectively shoppers buses or works buses or school buses registered as local bus services. Whilst they might be of interest to bus enthusiasts, they are probably insignificant to most PlusBus ticket holders and it is simply not worth the administration to get them included in the scheme.

I appreciate that and agree that it was perhaps right whenever the page was last updated but it wouldn't right for me to include that in operators who do accept the ticket when they currently don't.

That said, given this change happened nearly 3 years ago, there has been plenty of time for this to have been corrected. Just more evidence of Traveline and RDGs lack of care for the scheme and just persistently pumping out incorrect information.

I doubt there is anything like the staff resource in the PlusBus organisation required to keep on top of such information updates. PlusBus detail will hardly be on the radar of those working in other organisations (bus/railway operators, Local Authorities, trade bodies etc) , bearing in mind its low take up in the grand scheme of things.

 

[markymark2000]

I doubt there is anything like the staff resource in the PlusBus organisation required to keep on top of such information updates. PlusBus detail will hardly be on the radar of those working in other organisations (bus/railway operators, Local Authorities, trade bodies etc) , bearing in mind its low take up in the grand scheme of things.

Then news flash, don't take on more projects if you can't manage them properly. That shouldn't be a difficult concept for companies in public transport, but seemingly it is. It's perhaps worth noting too that the quality of data being pumped out by Traveline in other areas has decreased too since they took on Plusbus so clearly they can't manage the additional workload and/or haven't invested in more staff. Either way, all comes back to choices that Plusbus have made. They made a choice to take on Plusbus, they didn't have to, any excuses people are going to bring up for why the data quality is so poor, are meaningless. It's a self inflicted problem by Traveline and thus they should get no sympathy.

And how do you expect for uptake to increase when they couldn't give a single stuff about providing passengers with correct details on it's acceptance? People won't flock to purchase a product when they can't trust it. Traveline need to get their act together, push hard on improving the data quality, and then passengers will buy it.

 

[Starmill]

They shouldn't need anything from specific retailers, they have access to a feed with all of the keys in it that they need.

If it's a scanning failure affecting a PlusBus ticket issued on the forum site, do write in to customer services so it can be complained about.

We've been round this road before but realistically most bus companies aren't going to be bothered about this enough to do any work at all on getting it to work. You could do their entire homework for them telling them how to set their own ticketer up, they still wouldn't do it as it'd need a few hours of staff time on something which they see as unnecessary. They are unlikely to even realise if they haven't been written to.

First bus in Bristol have done the work. Has anyone else?

 

[OscarH]

We've been round this road before but realistically most bus companies aren't going to be bothered about this enough to do any work at all on getting it to work. You could do their entire homework for them telling them how to set their own ticketer up, they still wouldn't do it as it'd need a few hours of staff time on something which they see as unnecessary. They are unlikely to even realise if they haven't been written to.

First bus in Bristol have done the work. Has anyone else?

The ETM suppliers have often been the issue more than the bus companies (or one in particular).

Metrobus in Crawley has had the relevant ETM config applied, and it works perfectly

 

[Starmill]

The ETM suppliers have often been the issue more than the bus companies (or one in particular).

Metrobus in Crawley has had the relevant ETM config applied, and it works perfectly

That's a relief to know at least.

 

[Bungle965]

TrainSplit I know has done a lot of work with Ticketer to ensure that relevant operators are now accepting these, why this has come from a Third Party Retailer to do this on their own intuition rather than it being led by the industry (RDG) is a mystery.

The obvious worry is that whilst Ticketer is the main supplier in the market there is Transmach, Vix & INIT amongst others, which still come down to the driver accepting it as a flash pass.

 

[RT4038]

Then news flash, don't take on more projects if you can't manage them properly. That shouldn't be a difficult concept for companies in public transport, but seemingly it is. It's perhaps worth noting too that the quality of data being pumped out by Traveline in other areas has decreased too since they took on Plusbus so clearly they can't manage the additional workload and/or haven't invested in more staff. Either way, all comes back to choices that Plusbus have made. They made a choice to take on Plusbus, they didn't have to, any excuses people are going to bring up for why the data quality is so poor, are meaningless. It's a self inflicted problem by Traveline and thus they should get no sympathy.

And how do you expect for uptake to increase when they couldn't give a single stuff about providing passengers with correct details on it's acceptance? People won't flock to purchase a product when they can't trust it. Traveline need to get their act together, push hard on improving the data quality, and then passengers will buy it.

As I recall, the Bus Companies were pretty much railroaded (if you'll excuse the expression) by Central Government at the time into participating in PlusBus. They really didn't want to do it. Why would they want it - they are taking a scalp on the price of their tickets and having to allocate administrative time to it - all for hardly any revenue in the grand scheme of things, and probably less money than they would have got as most of the users who buy them probably would have bought bus company products anyway? They would far rather passengers get off their train and buy, with contactless, a ticket on the bus for their journey; you know, like they always have done, rather than another ticket type to be kept up to date with.

I expect Traveline are in a similar position - didn't really want the job and are not making sufficient money out of it to 'invest' in more staff and in training for those staff, and recruiting and training replacement staff when they turnover. By reading this forum it is clear that the railway industry has enough grief over complicated ticketing and insufficient knowledge and experience of little used ticket types; this is no different (and for much the same reasons) in the bus industry.

Hopefully the push by Central Government for multi operator ticketing products as standard (another can of worms) and Project Coral multi-operator capping will cut out the need for PlusBus in the future.

 

[philthetube]

So for example, Arriva Midlands is listed as accepting the Wrexham Plusbus, how can they accept the ticket that is only valid in an area which they do not operate? For the same reasons, I ignored Stagecoach Cumbria in the St Helens zone and I ignored Blackpool Transport and Stagecoach Merseyside in the Preston zone.

While agreeing that Blackpool shouldn't be there to be fair they did operate to Preston until a couple of years ago.

Who edits the list?

 

[ChilliSauce]

While agreeing that Blackpool shouldn't be there to be fair they did operate to Preston until a couple of years ago.

Who edits the list?

I believe you have to read a combination of the operators and the map for the plus bus area.

In the case of the Preston map it's the operators in the list that provide service as per the map, so the fact that Blackpool Transport might appear in the list (because the list has not been kept up to date) does that actually matter? You can't use a Preston plus bus in the Preston area on Blackpool Transport as they (now) provide no service.

In the case of the Luton map it boundaries with the Hitchin map . And there is a Luton to Hitchin bus .. But validity is only as far as defined on the map .. i.e. to travel between Luton and Hitchin you would need 2 plus bus tickets ....

And i am not sure if as per the plus bus rules you can actually buy 2 Plus bus in that situation as your supposed to buy the plus bus for the area you start or/and end your rail journey in ..

 

[markymark2000]

The obvious worry is that whilst Ticketer is the main supplier in the market there is Transmach, Vix & INIT amongst others, which still come down to the driver accepting it as a flash pass.

If I remember rightly, only Stagecoach have the Vix machines and not all Stagecoach areas even have scanners? And even if they have scanners then many of them aren't turned on. Combine that too with the fact that many Stagecoach machines will be replaced in the next few years due to franchising, I'm not sure that there is much to worry about with Vix.

While agreeing that Blackpool shouldn't be there to be fair they did operate to Preston until a couple of years ago.

Who edits the list?

The Blackpool inclusion on the Preston list isn't as outdated as some of the pages, but they stopped serving Preston around 2 years ago so it's still outdated.

In terms of editing the list, it's supposed to be the scheme coordinators which I believe is mostly either the major operator in the area, or in some cases it's down to the local authority or other multi operator ticketing organisation. Scheme coordinators, interestingly when you speak to them, they know nothing about updating the site or even know how it all works. Plusbus blame coordinators, coordinators blame Plusbus.
Plusbus/Traveline can edit the list though themselves and tends to just hide behind the scheme coordinators because it's less work for them. Arguebly the buck stops with Plusbus/Traveline though since they are the ones promoting the ticket and the website is in their name and they are the overall Plusbus managers.

 

[Haywain]

In the case of the Luton map it boundaries with the Hitchin map . And there is a Luton to Hitchin bus .. But validity is only as far as defined on the map .. i.e. to travel between Luton and Hitchin you would need 2 plus bus tickets ....

And i am not sure if as per the plus bus rules you can actually buy 2 Plus bus in that situation as your supposed to buy the plus bus for the area you start or/and end your rail journey in ..

It's conceivable that someone holding an annual season from Luton to Bedford and an associated PlusBus season might be travelling to Hitchin for a rail journey on to, say, Cambridge and therefore utilising a Hitchin PlusBus ticket as well.

 

[OscarH]

TrainSplit I know has done a lot of work with Ticketer to ensure that relevant operators are now accepting these, why this has come from a Third Party Retailer to do this on their own intuition rather than it being led by the industry (RDG) is a mystery.

The obvious worry is that whilst Ticketer is the main supplier in the market there is Transmach, Vix & INIT amongst others, which still come down to the driver accepting it as a flash pass.

My understanding is Transmach have an implementation (an actual working one), and assuming the operator has configured things it should work with their new style machines. The others, remain an issue as you note, especially as Stagecoach as such a massive operator doesn't use either

 

[ChilliSauce]

It's conceivable that someone holding an annual season from Luton to Bedford and an associated PlusBus season might be travelling to Hitchin for a rail journey on to, say, Cambridge and therefore utilising a Hitchin PlusBus ticket as well.

Exactly ...you would need to exit the train at Luton and then use the Luton Plus bus .. And to have purchased a rail ticket for onwards travel from Hitchin allowing the purchase of a Hitchin Plus bus ..

 

[Deerfold]

Plusbus appears either not to have the relevant licenses or to have no applied them properly, so OpenStreetMaps is obscuring parts of the maps they're currently using.