Plusbus tickets - onboard availability

[Tom B]

I once had a heated debate with a Bus Driver while trying to use a Plusbus ticket. The driver insisted that they weren't valid, and insisted I paid. I produced the print out of the relevant map and details outlining its validity,but he refused to budge. As I refused to pay or get off he rung the Inspectors via phone and judging by the way he was talking to them about me I think he was expecting them to tell him he was right.

Unfortunately, and much to my amusement, they obviously told him the ticket was valid because his mood suddenly changed, he literally threw the ticket back at me without saying a word, and sped away from the stop violently and horrendously fast.

Other than that one occasion I have had the odd puzzled look, with drivers saying "I have never seen one of them before", but then happily acknowledging that they were valid and continuing without problem.

Exactly why I'd be wary about using them. Indeed, several local companies do not have any inspector or control staff after 5pm, so in the event of a problem you'd be stuffed.

 

[yorkie]

Exactly why I'd be wary about using them. Indeed, several local companies do not have any inspector or control staff after 5pm, so in the event of a problem you'd be stuffed.

I'm not sure about that. If the driver cannot call control then they either have to accept the ticket or call the police to remove you, which seems unlikely, and would risk them being cautioned for wasting police time.

 

[jon0844]

Exactly why I'd be wary about using them. Indeed, several local companies do not have any inspector or control staff after 5pm, so in the event of a problem you'd be stuffed.

Why can a bus company stop using inspectors or control staff before the last buses run? My local bus operator (a private firm) has nobody after 9pm, yet buses run through the night on some routes.

Sadly, many buses run early (as much as 10 minutes early) meaning a long wait - up to an hour - for the next one, while some will not even complete the route if they're empty and go back to the depot. You can't call the operator and with no inspectors they tend to side with the driver who will say he DID turn up on time.

 

[A60K]

I'm not sure about that. If the driver cannot call control then they either have to accept the ticket or call the police to remove you, which seems unlikely, and would risk them being cautioned for wasting police time.

I agree. I would politely explain to the bus driver that it is a valid ticket, that I accept that the information given to him by his managers/depot may be inadequate or that he may not recall it, but that as my ticket is valid he should let me travel without argument. If not, I would say he can call the police to report me for a travelling without a ticket - and that he would be proved wrong. I would probably also carry a copy of the local PlusBus publicity with me, but that shouldn't be regarded as essential.



--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why can a bus company stop using inspectors or control staff before the last buses run? My local bus operator (a private firm) has nobody after 9pm, yet buses run through the night on some routes.

Sadly, many buses run early (as much as 10 minutes early) meaning a long wait - up to an hour - for the next one, while some will not even complete the route if they're empty and go back to the depot. You can't call the operator and with no inspectors they tend to side with the driver who will say he DID turn up on time.

That's a fair point - incorporating a GPS unit to track routes and times would make such arguments redundant, and nowadays wouldn't carry a huge cost. It would help Traffic Commissioners and tendering authorities to regulate operators better - no GPS trace, assume no service operated unless other proof is provided - and the decent operators would surely welcome better regulation of cowboys. Basically a TRUST system for buses.

 

[barrykas]

That's a fair point - incorporating a GPS unit to track routes and times would make such arguments redundant, and nowadays wouldn't carry a huge cost. It would help Traffic Commissioners and tendering authorities to regulate operators better - no GPS trace, assume no service operated unless other proof is provided - and the decent operators would surely welcome better regulation of cowboys. Basically a TRUST system for buses.

TfL have done it already as part of the rollout of their iBus project. Hasn't made the slightest difference to early or late running on any of my local routes. Last bus on one route still runs up to 5 minutes early, and the first bus on another still runs up to 10 minutes late, such that it's just in front of the second one!

Goes without saying that TfL deny there's a problem with the punctuality of either route, 'cos their monitoring (which they only do between 7am and 9pm, and at specific locations, in hi-vis vests!) shows there isn't. :roll:

Cheers,

Barry

 

[A60K]

I guess though that iBus isn't being used (yet) to monitor the running of the routes - if so it would be a dead simple task to run the log of each bus through a computer and determine the variance from the schedule.

 

[Deerfold]

I guess though that iBus isn't being used (yet) to monitor the running of the routes - if so it would be a dead simple task to run the log of each bus through a computer and determine the variance from the schedule.

Not quite as easy as that unfortunately - as on high frequency routes (5bph+) bus operators are encouraged to try to maintain even frequencies more than keeping to time.

iBus is about to be used to determine payments to operators which do depend on this and low frequency buses being on time. This is replacing the people in hivi vests (who do monitor outside those times but not as much).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Goes without saying that TfL deny there's a problem with the punctuality of either route, 'cos their monitoring (which they only do between 7am and 9pm, and at specific locations, in hi-vis vests!) shows there isn't. :roll:

Cheers,

Barry

I'd consider asking them if they have any data from iBus about the routes you're asked about. If they're recent they should have.

 

[jon0844]

The 55 from Leyton to Oxford Circus is a nightmare. It doesn't have a timetable per se, like most central London services, rather a 7-12 minute (or whatever) frequency. As such, they'll try to regulate the service at peak times.

I guess they're NOT using the GPS to do this as they still bunch up - so you can get 3 or 4 (or more) together at times. Then, they'll probably turn some back around at Clerkenwell Green - but if you're on the bus at the back, that always seems to be the one they turn at short notice (you get told by the iBus system as you approach, so you had no way of knowing before you boarded). As you alight, do they hold any of the buses in front? Of course not. Suddenly you have a huge wait and you're better off walking.

More than one driver has confirmed that control is supposed to arrange one of the buses to stop and wait to pick up those forced off, but it never happens.

Clearly the technology is there, but it's only as good as the people who choose (or know how) to use it.

Buses are important, especially in London, yet they're never run anywhere near as professionally as the railway. Buses can be a lottery, and if you're not in central London where you've usually got choices and a more frequent service, then God help you!

 

[Deerfold]

The 55 from Leyton to Oxford Circus is a nightmare. It doesn't have a timetable per se, like most central London services, rather a 7-12 minute (or whatever) frequency. As such, they'll try to regulate the service at peak times.

More than one driver has confirmed that control is supposed to arrange one of the buses to stop and wait to pick up those forced off, but it never happens.

They are - not least so that people can get on without having to pay again - feel free to complain to TfL - they don't like it happening either.

Clearly the technology is there, but it's only as good as the people who choose (or know how) to use it.

Quite. the technology is definitely there (finally). A controller will be looking after about 5 routes and can see where all the buses on that route are. Occasioanlly something major like an accident can bugger things up, but otherwise they should be able to even out most problems.

Buses are important, especially in London, yet they're never run anywhere near as professionally as the railway. Buses can be a lottery, and if you're not in central London where you've usually got choices and a more frequent service, then God help you!

Experience varies - some bus companies are very good. Unfortunately they're usually small ones. Oh course with a minimum of competence, anyone can run a bus service. And some of them do.

 

[jon0844]

I can't be bothered to complain to TfL, as I wouldn't even know who to contact for any effect - or how to report which bus it was, the exact location etc.

I can't currently use Google Maps (browser issues) but I know you can now see the routes for every bus via the TfL website. Do they show realtime locations of buses on there too?

There are rumours that our local bus operators may get GPS fitted as the county council are looking at having this to provide realtime info on the many screens they have at bus stops. At the moment, the screens look nice but are useless - they show the timetable data and can't detect when a bus is early/late or not running. It's an expensive replacement to printed timetables (which still exist) and serves little purpose. In fact, when a bus has gone early, it means it will remain on the screen until the time passes (which also means late buses don't show).

I do wonder how such a pathetic system was ever launched, as it must have cost a fortune. The only upside, I guess, is that most of the infrastructure is there already.

 

[90019]

There are rumours that our local bus operators may get GPS fitted as the county council are looking at having this to provide realtime info on the many screens they have at bus stops. At the moment, the screens look nice but are useless - they show the timetable data and can't detect when a bus is early/late or not running. It's an expensive replacement to printed timetables (which still exist) and serves little purpose. In fact, when a bus has gone early, it means it will remain on the screen until the time passes (which also means late buses don't show).

Lothian currently have this sort of thing partially installed. IIRC, the whole of the normal fleet now have GPS, and none of the screens installed so far now show timetable data (this has been the case since the withdrawal of the last of the Olys last year).
From my experience, it's actually a good system, and one that actually works, showing estimated time until arrival, then "Due" when it's nearby, then they get taken off when they get a certain distance away (I'm presuming it's the same distance either side for Due and then being taken off).
They're currently in the process of installing more screens, as it's still only a relatively small number of stops that have them.

 

[jon0844]

The system in York seemed to work very well. You could send an SMS to receive the next arrivals of any particular service, or all services, to any bus stop.

I can do that now with my bus operator, if I want to receive the fixed information that might have nothing in common with reality!

 

[Deerfold]

I can't be bothered to complain to TfL, as I wouldn't even know who to contact for any effect - or how to report which bus it was, the exact location etc.

I'll call customer services on 0845 300 7000 or customer.services@tfl.gov.uk. If it's about a particular bus, the route number and time is a good start. Even better is the bus reg no or "bonnet" number which will be on white on the side or back or the door or possibly above the door (probably in more than one of those locations) or even on the bonnet of the bus. These are often in the format XX111. East London Bus group are a 5-digit number, First are 2 or 3 letters than a 5-digit number. Describe you location or even better give the bus stop number. This will be under the flag - where the route numbers are listed.

I can't currently use Google Maps (browser issues) but I know you can now see the routes for every bus via the TfL website. Do they show realtime locations of buses on there too?

Not yet. An online and SMS system is in development.

There are rumours that our local bus operators may get GPS fitted as the county council are looking at having this to provide realtime info on the many screens they have at bus stops. At the moment, the screens look nice but are useless - they show the timetable data and can't detect when a bus is early/late or not running. It's an expensive replacement to printed timetables (which still exist) and serves little purpose. In fact, when a bus has gone early, it means it will remain on the screen until the time passes (which also means late buses don't show).

Usually these systems are all ready to show predicted times - they just need the installation on the buses doing. I have two bus companies passing my house so 5 buses an hour predict well and the other one just shows the times as their buses aren't fitted.

I do wonder how such a pathetic system was ever launched, as it must have cost a fortune. The only upside, I guess, is that most of the infrastructure is there already.

Yes, it's cheaper so long as the initial signs are all ready for the data coming in. The one problem I've found is that if there's major disruption the systems can't contact the bus, assumes it's not fitted and shows the scheduled times - that's what happened when we had no buses in Feb last year after the heavy snows.

TfL have had fun as they're moved to iBus from an older system so they've had the make the new system work with the old signs and then from next year new signs should start to appear.

 

[jon0844]

The Countdown system was quite advanced for its time. I worked in Wood Green which had one of the first implementations I believe.

 

[Tom B]

Lothian currently have this sort of thing partially installed. IIRC, the whole of the normal fleet now have GPS, and none of the screens installed so far now show timetable data (this has been the case since the withdrawal of the last of the Olys last year).
From my experience, it's actually a good system, and one that actually works, showing estimated time until arrival, then "Due" when it's nearby, then they get taken off when they get a certain distance away (I'm presuming it's the same distance either side for Due and then being taken off).
They're currently in the process of installing more screens, as it's still only a relatively small number of stops that have them.

Timetable data is shown when the GPS is for whatever reason switched off, but a cross is shown instead of the normal space space, viz:

33 Hyvots Bank 2
33 Hyvots BankX17

 

[Deerfold]

The Countdown system was quite advanced for its time. I worked in Wood Green which had one of the first implementations I believe.

It was very advanced for its time. The initial trials were late 80s. The system changed a bit before being rolled out throughout the 90s and early 00s. It didn't use GPS as at the time of its delevopment GPS only provided accuracy to within 100m. Indeed the new system doesn't just use GPS. Unfortunately it had to fight for funding to expand each time it did unlike the new system which was always thought of as being for every route.

 

[jon0844]

It used roadside sensors didn't it, working I guess like the railway and tube network does. It's okay for an approximate time of arrival but can't cope with a train passing a point and then stopping dead in traffic.

 

[Deerfold]

It used roadside sensors didn't it, working I guess like the railway and tube network does. It's okay for an approximate time of arrival but can't cope with a train passing a point and then stopping dead in traffic.

4500 (approx) roadside radio beacons. It wasn't good if the bus was the first into a jam, but the predicted journey time was based on the average time of the previous 3 buses to complete the journey so it did learn, as opposed to "tube minutes" which tell you how long the tube will take once it's got going again. The new system tries to be cleverer and 'remembers' traffic jams so if there's always one on a Monday at 8am it assumes there will be unless a few buses get through quicker. The new system also tries to guess/predict when a bus will arrive even if its not finished its previous journey.

 

[90019]

Timetable data is shown when the GPS is for whatever reason switched off, but a cross is shown instead of the normal space space, viz:

33 Hyvots Bank 2
33 Hyvots BankX17

I thought they had * after the time if it was timetabled times rather than GPS?

 

[Mojo]

as they can't be issued within the area they cover.

that can't be entirely correct - they can be issued for the origin town as well as the destination.

I agree with the above, it is possible to purchase Bristol PlusBus tickets from suburban stations in the Greater Bristol PlusBus area.

 

[ChrisCooper]

You need to be careful if getting a Norwich Plusbus, as there are two different types. Before the national PlusBus scheme was introduced Anglia got together with Eastern Counties so you could buy an add on to to the train ticket allowing travel between the station and the city centre on the no.25. Like most places Norwich now has Plusbus too which is valid for unlimited travel in the whole city, but the old ticket is still available. At least twice I've been sold the old ticket though whilst asking for "Norwich Plusbus". The first time was fine, but the second time it wasn't until I got on a bus in the subburbs to head back into the city that I got told my ticket was not valid and that "it's only valid from the station to the city on the 25 and 26", and after an argument I realised that he was actually right and that I'd got the wrong ticket, so I ended up paying. I complained back at the station and got my money back. What annoyed me most was that I'd not only got out to where I was on an invalid ticket, but had previously travelled well out of the city centre on other routes too, and done it on at least one other occasion (as I checked my ticket from then and it was the same).

Of cource, I felt bad arguing when I was wrong, but you get so used to bus drivers (and train conductors/RPIs are just as bad) who seem clueless as to what tickets are valid that arguing is the default response. It's one of those areas where better training not only helps those who do not know the rules, but also helps those who do know the rules as they get less trouble for applying them.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Of cource, I felt bad arguing when I was wrong, but you get so used to bus drivers (and train conductors/RPIs are just as bad) who seem clueless as to what tickets are valid that arguing is the default response. It's one of those areas where better training not only helps those who do not know the rules, but also helps those who do know the rules as they get less trouble for applying them.

The same could be said for on board trains as well. Many of the difficult situations I find myself in are caused, sadly, by colleagues from either my or another TOC not either knowing or applying the rules. I know for example that some of my colleagues never bother to check the time on advance tickets, or aren't bothered about checking railcards, and there are many at another local TOC who don't enforce the buy before you board policy. This causes problems for me as I enforce all the above, and once someone gets away with something once, it causes all sorts of problems when they try it again and I say "no".!