PlusBus from non-major station in a PlusBus area

[Skymonster]

A couple of days ago, I needed to go to Longton (near Stoke on Trent), from where I needed to use a few buses before returning to Longton station to go home again on the train. “Excellent,” I thought, “PlusBus.” Well maybe not, as there’s no PlusBus for Longton. However, Longton is within the Stoke PlusBus area so I assured myself there’d be no issues.

I planned to buy the offpeak day return to Longton just before departure, but of course the TVM didn’t offer a PlusBus option for Longton nor a standalone PlusBus for Stoke in addition to a Longton rail ticket. So off to the ticket counter I toddle…

Me: “Offpeak day return to Longton with PlusBus please.”
Staff: “I don’t think there’s PlusBus available with Longton tickets sir.”
Me: “That’s OK, I‘ll have the Longton ticket and a Stoke PlusBus, because Longton is within the Stoke PlusBus area.”
Staff: “Mmmm, not sure we can do that. You need to be going to Stoke to get a Stoke PlusBus.”
Me: “That’s crazy. Longton is in the Stoke PlusBus area, surely I can get a Stoke PlusBus with a Longton ticket.”
Staff: “But you need to be going to Stoke For the PlusBus. Why not buy a ticket to Stoke and get off at Longton, or use the bus from Stoke?”
Me: “Because a return from here to Stoke is more expensive than a return to Longton.”
Staff: “Well I’m not sure we can do what you want.”
Me “Surely you can sell me a PlusBus for Stoke?”
Staff: “Hang on.”

The staff member goes away and comes back a few moments later.

Staff: “We shouldn’t really do it, but I’ve been told I can issue you with a Stoke PlusBus on this occasion even though you’re not going to Stoke.”

Now this seems crazy to me. Longton station is within the Stoke PlusBus area so absent a standalone Longton PlusBus surely issuing a Stoke PlusBus should be reasonable, rather than an exception. There must be other stations within a PlusBus area which don’t have their own PlusBus, but where issues the PlusBus for the major station is a reasonable action. What happens if I go to Longton again and get a less helpful staff member?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What happens if I go to Longton again and get a less helpful staff member?

Presumably with the Stoke-on-Trent Plusbus product, you are expected to first travel by rail to the Stoke-on-Trent interchange station and then get an onward bus to/from Longton (or wherever in the relevant plusbus zone) from near there.

Where were you travelling from in the first place? Is there a big difference from there in rail only fares (before any add-ons) to/from Longton compared with to/from Stoke-on-Trent?

Could you not just buy the Stoke-on-Trent Plusbus ticket and then alight at Longton if you're already legitimately passing through the latter rail station?

 

[Bread & cheese]

Presumably with the Stoke-on-Trent Plusbus product, you are expected to first travel by rail to the Stoke-on-Trent interchange station and then get an onward bus to/from Longton (or wherever in the relevant plusbus zone) from near there.

Where were you travelling from in the first place? Is there a big difference from there in rail only fares (before any add-ons) to/from Longton compared with to/from Stoke-on-Trent?

Could you not just buy the Stoke-on-Trent Plusbus ticket and then alight at Longton if you're already legitimately passing through the latter rail station?

From the PlusBus website:
19. Does my rail station origin / destination have to link with my PlusBus ?
You can only buy a PlusBus ticket for a location that is named as either the origin and / or the destination on your train ticket. So, in order to buy a Birmingham PlusBus ticket, you have to have Birmingham named on your train ticket (as either an origin and / or the destination station).
https://www.plusbus.info/frequently-asked-questions

 

[Deafdoggie]

I had this very discussion (only Longport instead of Longton) a few years ago. It really is madness and drives (literally!) people away from the railway.
I spoke to PlusBus who said it's up to the council what stations are included in PlusBus. I spoke to the council, who said PlusBus only allow one station per PlusBus area.
I just drive now and thus neither PlusBus nor the council get any of my money.

 

[bakerstreet]

I spoke to the council, who said PlusBus only allow one station per PlusBus area.
I just drive now and thus neither PlusBus nor the council get any of my money.

Interestingly this product

(Bournemouth and Poole plus bus)

National Rail Enquiries - PlusBus - Bournemouth & Poole

The gateway to Britain's National Rail network. A portal into UK rail travel including train company information and promotions; train times; fares enquiries; ticket purchase and train running information.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Can also be purchased at Branksome

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

And Christchurch

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

(links to brfares show the day ticket but seasons are also available. )

But weirdly NOT Pokesdown (between Bournemouth and Christchurch) and buses stop outside the station

Also interestingly, the product becomes Branksome +bus and Christchurch +bus respectively but the validity area remains the same as Bournemouth & Poole plus bus

These don’t appear when searching the plus bus website so it may be these are no longer available to purchase but they appear to still be in the data

Buy from Bournemouth and it won’t say Bournemouth & Poole +bus it will just say Bournemouth +bus. https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=BMH&dest=H129&rte=9&tkt=PBD

Longton seems not to have a plus bus option - certainly I can’t see it on BRFARES

 

[Ediswan]

I spoke to PlusBus who said it's up to the council what stations are included in PlusBus. I spoke to the council, who said PlusBus only allow one station per PlusBus area.

Standard buck-passing. The council statement is conspicuously not true. There are several PlusBus areas with more than one interchange station. Some more examples:

https://plusbus.info/chatham-gillingham-rochester-medway-plusbus
https://plusbus.info/torquay (also Newton Abbot and Paignton)
https://plusbus.info/runcorn (also Runcorn East and Widnes)
https://plusbus.info/cambridge (also Cambridge North)

 

[CyrusWuff]

It was originally the case that most stations in "larger" PlusBus areas (e.g. the West Midlands and Greater Manchester) had an associated PlusBus destination.

However, that "wasted" a large number of locations, so there was a rationalisation at some point, which reduced it to key stations in each area.

Personally, I'd have no problem issuing a PlusBus ticket for an otherwise qualifying journey in such cases, but (obviously) TVMs and websites won't do so natively.

In an ideal world, RDG would issue a Staff Brief on the subject to give a definitive answer. Getting some staff to read it, on the other hand...

 

[Nottingham59]

Can I ask where you were travelling from? Fares from Derby to Longton seem to be the same as fares from Derby to Stoke. Am I missing something here?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The answer would be to have a Blythe Bridge Plusbus, a Longton Plusbus, a Longport Plusbus (and so on), all would have the same boundary map and cost the same price.

As a local to the area it is a nuisance. It would be much more convenient for me to catch a bus direct from home to Blythe Bridge or Longton Stations (utilising Plusbus) and then take the train for long distance travel. I do not have a direct bus to Stoke-on-Trent, so a Plusbus requires a long journey to Hanley, a wait there for a connection, then a bus down to Stoke Station. However, as we no longer have an evening bus service for the return portion of a day trip, it is probably cheaper to just buy a single for the bus in the morning only.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2022 ==

Can I ask where you were travelling from? Fares from Derby to Longton seem to be the same as fares from Derby to Stoke. Am I missing something here?

Longton and Stoke tend to be priced the same, Blythe Bridge not so.

From Derby you can alight early. The problem would be a ticket in the other direction eg from Crewe to Stoke (allowing Plusbus purchase) which would not allow you to travel on to Longton by train - but you could ask the guard for a zero fare excess of course.

 

[Nottingham59]

The problem would be a ticket in the other direction eg from Crewe to Stoke (allowing Plusbus purchase) which would not allow you to travel on to Longton by train - but you could ask the guard for a zero fare excess of course.

But the OP says that a ticket to Stoke would be more expensive than to Longton. I can't see how that would be unless he's coming via Derby

 

[Mcr Warrior]

An Off Peak Day Return from Derby to/from Longton (route via Uttoxeter) seems to be the same price as one from Derby to/from Stoke-on-Trent, i.e. £10.70.

 

[Deafdoggie]

There used to be, corrected now, a bug in the system that made some (mainly long distance) journeys to Longport significantly cheaper than Stoke, even though they should have been the same fare. Longton might have now caught the bug.
Is it not the case that journeys to/via London from Longton are permitted via Derby? These could then be cheaper than Stoke to/via London which aren't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2022 ==

As a local to the area it is a nuisance. It would be much more convenient for me to catch a bus direct from home to Blythe Bridge or Longton Stations (utilising Plusbus) and then take the train for long distance travel. I do not have a direct bus to Stoke-on-Trent, so a Plusbus requires a long journey to Hanley, a wait there for a connection, then a bus down to Stoke Station. However, as we no longer have an evening bus service for the return portion of a day trip, it is probably cheaper to just buy a single for the bus in the morning only.

It is a problem from lots of the area, as the bus services tend to focus on Hanley. Thus different PlusBus with the same area would be very helpful. The area was kept the same as the Smart ticket to be helpful, so why not adding more stations?

 

[miklcct]

However, that "wasted" a large number of locations, so there was a rationalisation at some point, which reduced it to key stations in each area.

I can't see there are any technical limitations to create only one PlusBus destination for multiple interchange stations, for example, a Longton to Stoke+Bus fare entry can be added into the database.

 

[A Challenge]

I can't see there are any technical limitations to create only one PlusBus destination for multiple interchange stations, for example, a Longton to Stoke+Bus fare entry can be added into the database.

This doesn't seem to be done anywhere, but it seems like it would be a very good idea, especially with the larger areas such as South Yorkshire and the West Midlands (also, I'd imagine using a plusbus issued to a minor station at one end of a large area may cause issues at the opposite end, this says Solihull on it why are you trying to board this bus in Stourbridge?)

 

[FenMan]

Ah PlusBus, driver responses: "it's not valid here", "we don't take it", etc.

The best example was Aylesbury, five of us boarded despite the driver's protestations, so we had safety in numbers. He said he'd call an inspector, we said fine, but we pointed out that would delay the other passengers for no good reason. So, muttering, he drove us to our destination.

Next time we visited, the bus company concerned had decided to withdraw from the scheme.
We took a cab instead. Their loss.

Top tip: Don't buy an Aylesbury PlusBus ticket as it's now useless unless using one of the few routes served by Arriva.

 

[Furryanimal]

When I go to Filton Abbey Wood in order to get a Bristol Plus Bus ticket I have to book to Temple Meads.
Apparently you can only have a Plus Bus Ticket by booking to there or Parkway.
Filton is very convenient for a bus to the cricket ground from the nearby Filton Avenue.
This sort of thing probably needs addressing.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

I can't see there are any technical limitations to create only one PlusBus destination for multiple interchange stations, for example, a Longton to Stoke+Bus fare entry can be added into the database.

All they need to do is create a cluster for the stations in a PlusBus area and define one fare from there to <whatever> PlusBus. And yes, I don't know why more than one PlusBus fare location per area is necessary, if it's properly named to avoid trouble on the bus. The only trouble I've ever had with one was a "what's that?" - outside Ramsgate station!

 

[Nottingham59]

if it's properly named to avoid trouble on the bus.

All it needs in this case is to rename it "Stoke Area Plus-Bus", and make it available from all the NR stations in the Stoke Plus Bus area, which is shown here:https://www.plusbus.info/sites/default/files/pdfs/Stoke-on-Trent.pdf

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I can't see there are any technical limitations to create only one PlusBus destination for multiple interchange stations, for example, a Longton to Stoke+Bus fare entry can be added into the database.

'within zone' Plusbus tickets are not permitted. One of your train ticket points has to be outside the Plusbus zone, this stems from the origin of the Plusbus product - a means of dealing with 'last mile' travel from the destination station to a non rail-served location. Integration of modes, simplicity for the customer etc. Plusbus often used to be a single one-way journey attached to the rail ticket rather than a day (or longer) season.

Stone to Stoke-on-Trent+Plusbus is permitted because Stone is outside the Plusbus boundary. Longton to Stoke-on-Trent+Plusbus is not permitted as both are within the Stoke Plusbus zone.

Not a technical limitation but a 'regulatory' one. Plusbus was intended to attract new revenue, not abstract from existing bus ticket purchases.

 

[lyndhurst25]

These problems with PlusBus are as old as the hills. The industry is well aware of them and the, what you would have to thought to be, relatively simple solutions. I know because I, and many others I'm sure, have written to PlusBus about (1) not all stations in a PlusBus area being valid train/bus interchanges, (2) bus drivers not knowing where PlusBus is valid, (3) PlusBus not being officially available form stations where you are making a break of journey. The replies that I got from PlusBus were just fob offs with the attitude that "the railway can't possibly change their fares system to help with that", with the implication that it was not their problem. I got the impression that they were of the opinion that it was just a legacy system that they were maintaining and were unwilling to improve upon, with the feeling that it would all soon be fixed by some new unspecified technology anyway, in the form of a smartcard, app or similar. We're still waiting.

 

[Wolfie]

I had this very discussion (only Longport instead of Longton) a few years ago. It really is madness and drives (literally!) people away from the railway.
I spoke to PlusBus who said it's up to the council what stations are included in PlusBus. I spoke to the council, who said PlusBus only allow one station per PlusBus area.
I just drive now and thus neither PlusBus nor the council get any of my money.

Now that is interesting. If l buy a ticket to Telford Central l get a Telford Plusbus. If l buy a ticket to Wellington (same fare) l get a Wellington Plusbus. It has exactly the same validity on the predominantly Arriva local buses as the Telford one. However, on one occasion l had a bus driver attempt to refuse it as the bus network is clearly called Telford and not Wellington.... Go figure....

 

[FenMan]

The Blackwater Valley conurbation is particularly ill-served by PlusBus. It is a single PlusBus area but tickets can only be purchased to Camberley, Farnborough Main. Farnborough North and Aldershot.

Blackwater, Frimley, North Camp, Ash Vale, Ash and Farnham miss out. All are served by frequent bus services, but people travelling to Yateley (via Blackwater), the villages around Farnham, and Frimley Green or Mytchett (via Frimley or Ash Vale) cannot use PlusBud without taking unnecessarily convoluted routes.

 

[Wolfie]

Ah PlusBus, driver responses: "it's not valid here", "we don't take it", etc.

The best example was Aylesbury, five of us boarded despite the driver's protestations, so we had safety in numbers. He said he'd call an inspector, we said fine, but we pointed out that would delay the other passengers for no good reason. So, muttering, he drove us to our destination.

Next time we visited, the bus company concerned had decided to withdraw from the scheme.
We took a cab instead. Their loss.

Top tip: Don't buy an Aylesbury PlusBus ticket as it's now useless unless using one of the few routes served by Arriva.

I had an Arriva driver try that despite the 'Plusbus accepted' sticker on his cab door... One pointed finger later, lol....

 

[lyndhurst25]

Now that is interesting. If l buy a ticket to Telford Central l get a Telford Plusbus. If l buy a ticket to Wellington (same fare) l get a Wellington Plusbus. It has exactly the same validity on the predominantly Arriva local buses as the Telford one. However, on one occasion l had a bus driver attempt to refuse it as the bus network is clearly called Telford and not Wellington.... Go figure....

I had a similar refusal trying to use a valid Rotherham PlusBus in Sheffield. My suggestion to PlusBus was to put in the Route section of the rail ticket "ALL SY BUSES". Response from PlusPus summarised as "too hard".

 

[Alex365Dash]

Stone to Stoke-on-Trent+Plusbus is permitted because Stone is outside the Plusbus boundary. Longton to Stoke-on-Trent+Plusbus is not permitted as both are within the Stoke Plusbus zone.

It might be worth mentioning that PlusBus tickets are issued from the interchange station to the PlusBus destination (i.e. Stoke on Trent to Stoke+BUS) but are only permitted to be issued with a valid rail ticket partially outside the PlusBus zone (i.e. it would not be issued with a Longton to Stoke on Trent ticket but would be issued with a Stone to Stoke on Trent ticket).

Once you consider this, miklcct’s response makes a lot more sense.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

It might be worth mentioning that PlusBus tickets are issued from the interchange station to the PlusBus destination (i.e. Stoke on Trent to Stoke+BUS) but are only permitted to be issued with a valid rail ticket partially outside the PlusBus zone (i.e. it would not be issued with a Longton to Stoke on Trent ticket but would be issued with a Stone to Stoke on Trent ticket).

Once you consider this, miklcct’s response makes a lot more sense.

Yes, I see that more clearly now.

Multiple interchanges for the same +BUS do/did exist, as discussed for West Midland, South Yorkshire etc.

The question is, could you have an interchange station with more than one Plusbus destination, for example, x to Stoke-on-Trent and then Stoke+BUS, Keele University+BUS. Each with a different fare / area of validity?