PLUSBUS and Two Together Railcards

[ACS]

You can purchase Two PLUSBUS tickets with a Two Together Railcard and (obviously) valid rail tickets. Once purchased would the PLUSBUS tickets have to be used by two individuals travelling together or does that only apply to the train journey? Would passengers have to board and alight at the same bus stops in order for their tickets to be valid?

It does strike me that such conditions would significantly limit the usefulness of the plusbus tickets.

 

[JaJaWa]

You can purchase Two PLUSBUS tickets with a Two Together Railcard and (obviously) valid rail tickets. Once purchased would the PLUSBUS tickets have to be used by two individuals travelling together or does that only apply to the train journey? Would passengers have to board and alight at the same bus stops in order for their tickets to be valid?

It does strike me that such conditions would significantly limit the usefulness of the plusbus tickets.

I don't think so. I use PLUSBUS a lot all over the country and I have never been asked to show a Railcard on the bus / tram - and I would be very surprised if I was in the future.

 

[richw]

I've used a variety of bus tickets bought on a train with appropriate discount and never shown railcard with it.

 

[David Goddard]

I would imagine that the answer will be the same as would apply to the question:

"If two or more passengers travel to London together on Railcard (ie Network or Two Together) discounted tickets, must they stay together while using buses or Underground services in Central London"

If my wife and I go to London for the day and we know we are splitting up for part of the day then she will use a PAYG Oyster for the buses she uses while I use my travelcard (as its my name on the Network Card) for my journeys. Once we meet up again then she resumes travel on her travelcard. Had always assumed the rule applied there as it does on National Rail, but if it doesn't then would be useful gen to know.

 

[JaJaWa]

I would imagine that the answer will be the same as would apply to the question:

"If two or more passengers travel to London together on Railcard (ie Network or Two Together) discounted tickets, must they stay together while using buses or Underground services in Central London"

If my wife and I go to London for the day and we know we are splitting up for part of the day then she will use a PAYG Oyster for the buses she uses while I use my travelcard (as its my name on the Network Card) for my journeys. Once we meet up again then she resumes travel on her travelcard. Had always assumed the rule applied there as it does on National Rail, but if it doesn't then would be useful gen to know.

I don't believe you would asked to be asked to show a Railcard on a bus. Is that the wording of the restriction? What about on the DLR, or outside of "Central London"?

 

[ACS]

If possible I would like an answer regarding the specific scenario I mentioned (ie. plusbus). The answer may well be the same for London discounted tickets but it may well be different. The obvious difference might be that a Plusbus is a separate ticket albeit one which requires possession of a valid rail ticket in order to purchase, whereas the London one is a single rail ticket which includes transport within London.

I guess what I am asking is whether:
1. I am purchasing a discounted bus ticket from the railway station (subject to satisfying the criteria for purchase) and once the ticket is issued it operates the same as a ticket purchased without the discount. It is irrelevant to the bus companies whether or not a discount was applied to the purchase of the ticket and the criteria which applied to the rail ticket.
OR
2. I am purchasing an excess to a rail ticket effectively extending my rail journey via the bus network and thus subject to the NRCoC. The restrictions for the bus journey are the same as for the rail journey.

I assumed it was the former.

The latter option intrigues me because that interpretation would lead me to infer that the bus journey(s) formed part of my rail journey and thus part of my contract with the rail company. This could have interesting ramifications. For example, applying that logic, could a passenger who missed a booked train on an Advance ticket because of a delayed bus legitimately expect it to be treated as a missed connection?

 

[JaJaWa]

If possible I would like an answer regarding the specific scenario I mentioned (ie. plusbus). The answer may well be the same for London discounted tickets but it may well be different. The obvious difference might be that a Plusbus is a separate ticket albeit one which requires possession of a valid rail ticket in order to purchase, whereas the London one is a single rail ticket which includes transport within London.

I guess what I am asking is whether:
1. I am purchasing a discounted bus ticket from the railway station (subject to satisfying the criteria for purchase) and once the ticket is issued it operates the same as a ticket purchased without the discount. It is irrelevant to the bus companies whether or not a discount was applied to the purchase of the ticket and the criteria which applied to the rail ticket.
OR
2. I am purchasing an excess to a rail ticket effectively extending my rail journey via the bus network and thus subject to the NRCoC. The restrictions for the bus journey are the same as for the rail journey.

I assumed it was the former.

The latter option intrigues me because that interpretation would lead me to infer that the bus journey(s) formed part of my rail journey and thus part of my contract with the rail company. This could have interesting ramifications. For example, applying that logic, could a passenger who missed a booked train on an Advance ticket because of a delayed bus legitimately expect it to be treated as a missed connection?

It seems PLUSBUS have their own conditions:

http://www.plusbus.info/sites/default/files/pdfs/PLUSBUS%20Terms%20%26%20Conditions%20v2.pdf

If you buy a PLUSBUS day ticket using a qualifying Railcard and obtain a discount off the normal adult price of the PLUSBUS day ticket, then you must be in possession of that Railcard (and its accompanying Photocard) at all times whilst travelling by bus and tram

You must show and if asked to do so by a member of train, bus or tram company staff, hand over for inspection your ticket and any accompanying Railcard or Photocard.

I think your second point would apply if the PLUSBUS was from a named destination to another, but it's not.

 

[bb21]

Is the PlusBus ticket valid if you cannot show the relevant Railcard on demand?

If anyone can give a definitive answer then we have the answer to the OP's question.

 

[ACS]

Ah, thanks Jajawa. How did I miss that?

I note that being able to produce the railcard isn't the same as having to travel together at all times. For example, a pair of friends could travel from the station by bus to one of their houses, with the other later returning to her own house by bus. At no point would the ticket be being used without the applicable railcard.

As for my second point regarding it being part of the rail journey:
"Train Operating Companies and rail ticket sales agents are acting as sales agents for bus and tram companies that make-up the participating operators in each towns PLUSBUS scheme"

 

[bb21]

There is also a more subtle question embedded in there:

Is a Two Together Railcard valid if shown when only one person is travelling?

I think the answer simply lies in the specific Railcard terms and conditions.

2. The Railcard and tickets bought with the Railcard are not transferable and must not be given, loaned or resold to anyone else. Only the named cardholders can use the Railcard.
3. Both named cardholders must be travelling together to enable discounted tickets to be used.

 

[ACS]

Okay, but are the railcard restrictions applicable to a bus ticket? We have already established that the plusbus ticket is a bus/tram ticket and the requirement to carry the railcard used to purchase the discounted ticket arises from the specific plusbus rules not from generic railway ones which do not apply. Is there a parallel plusbus specific rule which extends the terms of conditions for use of a railcard on the railways to buses and trams?

In short, the subtle question is whether the railcard is required solely as proof of entitlement to the discount or whether it places a further restriction on the use of the plusbus ticket.

I understand that none of the following affects the restrictions but the reason I brought this up is that I think such restrictions would be really counter-productive when you consider the purpose of the tickets. A Two Together railcard is marketed as being ideal for friends going on days out. Similarly Plusbus allows journeys to begin and end where it is convenient for the passenger rather than just wherever there are stations as is necessary on the railway. If you insist their journeys must start from a single bus stop then unless those friends happen to live within a few hundred yards this convenience is lost.

These aren't issues which present themselves with the plusbus and individual railcards and it has probably been extended to the new railcard with little consideration. I think the industry could do well to re-appraise this situation thinking about the consequences of the restrictions.

 

[bb21]

Okay, but are the railcard restrictions applicable to a bus ticket? We have already established that the plusbus ticket is a bus/tram ticket and the requirement to carry the railcard used to purchase the discounted ticket arises from the specific plusbus rules not from generic railway ones which do not apply. Is there a parallel plusbus specific rule which extends the terms of conditions for use of a railcard on the railways to buses and trams?

I don't think you need any parallel rules. The terms I quoted refer to "discounted tickets" rather than "discounted rail tickets". There is no reason why a Railcard-discounted ticket should not be subject to restrictions attached to that Railcard, unless there is an easement specifically saying so.

In short, the subtle question is whether the railcard is required solely as proof of entitlement to the discount or whether it places a further restriction on the use of the plusbus ticket.

You do not need to produce the Railcard at the point of purchase, although most staff will insist on seeing one when selling you the tickets.

With rail tickets, it is at the point of use that you must be able to produce the Railcard that gave you the discount, and I see nothing to suggest that it is different for PlusBus tickets.

In reality, I agree with the others that bus drivers are unlikely to ask you to produce the Railcard, but I think officially they can.

I understand that none of the following affects the restrictions but the reason I brought this up is that I think such restrictions would be really counter-productive when you consider the purpose of the tickets. A Two Together railcard is marketed as being ideal for friends going on days out. Similarly Plusbus allows journeys to begin and end where it is convenient for the passenger rather than just wherever there are stations as is necessary on the railway. If you insist their journeys must start from a single bus stop then unless those friends happen to live within a few hundred yards this convenience is lost.

These aren't issues which present themselves with the plusbus and individual railcards and it has probably been extended to the new railcard with little consideration. I think the industry could do well to re-appraise this situation thinking about the consequences of the restrictions.

Why not just purchase non-Railcard discounted PlusBus tickets with your discounted rail tickets? That way you still enjoy the cheap fares offered by the PlusBus scheme whilst maintaining the flexibility you require at the beginning or the end of the journey?

 

[ACS]

"Why not just purchase non-Railcard discounted PlusBus tickets with your discounted rail tickets? That way you still enjoy the cheap fares offered by the PlusBus scheme whilst maintaining the flexibility you require at the beginning or the end of the journey?"
Thanks, that is a pragmatic approach and one I hadn't considered.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....You do not need to produce the Railcard at the point of purchase.....

Beg to differ....

6.Tickets for Your journey should be purchased before boarding the train. When buying tickets in person from a member of staff either You or the Second named cardholder must show the Railcard. If You are buying online or from a ticket vending machine (TVM) You must declare that You have a valid Railcard by selecting the Two Together Railcard option. If You fail to do so, You and the Second named cardholder will be required to pay the full price Standard Single fare for Your journey as if no tickets were purchased before starting the journey and in some cases a Penalty Fare. This does not apply if:

• there was no ticket office at the station at which You began the journey or if the ticket office was closed, and

• there was no working ticket machine from which You could buy discounted tickets

• You have a disability which prevented You accessing ticket retailing facilities
In these cases You will be able to use Your Railcard on train or at Your destination.

[Highlighted for clarity]

 

[Greenback]

You have only quoted half of bb21's sentence, which is a bit unfair seeing as he went on to say almost the same thing.

Of course, highlighting the official rules is always to be welcomed, but some clerks will sell advance dated tickets without a railcard being shown.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You have only quoted half of bb21's sentence, which is a bit unfair seeing as he went on to say almost the same thing.

Of course, highlighting the official rules is always to be welcomed, but some clerks will sell advance dated tickets without a railcard being shown.

The other half of the sentence just says that most staff would ask for it, which is not the same as being required to show it. I didn't see the need to quote it as it doesn't address the point. Most staff would ask to see it because it is supposed to be shown.

 

[Greenback]

You could have quoted nothing or you could have quoted everything in that sentence. Your point would still have been made.

 

[bb21]

You can interpret things literally if you want. The fact remains that you do not need to produce the Railcard when buying a ticket, as the requirement to present the Railcard is easily bypassed by not using a ticket office. The passenger is not obliged to use the ticket office.

It is not as if that is the only method of purchasing a ticket these days. If a clerk refuses, simply buy online and collect from a TVM. There are plenty of legitimate reasons why one may wish to purchase a discounted ticket whilst not in possession of the relevant Railcard. If the passenger is not in possession of the Railcard, they are hardly going to need to travel straight away.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You could have quoted nothing or you could have quoted everything in that sentence. Your point would still have been made.

I picked out the part of the post I wanted to reply to without altering the meaning of it. If I had not quoted you'd be wondering who I was responding to and if I quoted all of it you'd have to work out which bit I was talking about. I'm apologise if making things easier for you to follow makes it harder for you to understand.

You can interpret things literally if you want.....

I was just....oh wait, sorry Greenback, hold on....

You can interpret things literally if you want. The fact remains that you do not need to produce the Railcard when buying a ticket, as the requirement to present the Railcard is easily bypassed by not using a ticket office. The passenger is not obliged to use the ticket office.

It is not as if that is the only method of purchasing a ticket these days. If a clerk refuses, simply buy online and collect from a TVM. There are plenty of legitimate reasons why one may wish to purchase a discounted ticket whilst not in possession of the relevant Railcard. If the passenger is not in possession of the Railcard, they are hardly going to need to travel straight away.

I was just correcting you on a point, call it being literal if you want, but it read to me like implication that staff were going over and above their duty in requesting to see something that should be shown without even having to ask.

Perhaps I am too much of a jobsworth and everyone should buy from the ticket machine that isn't on the station, or maybe buy one online from just outside the ticket office, with the smart phone the person don't have, and then pick it up from the ticket machine that isn't there? Anything to avoid the 'rude and aggressive' clerk that only wants the Railcard holder to abide by a condition they actually agreed to, right?

There are no 'legitimate reasons' for buying discounted tickets at a ticket office without the Railcard being present, but in some cases, where the Railcard holder is not present, I might show discretion (I can't speak for other clerks here).

I remember one occasion I didn't ask to see a Railcard. It was a regular user who always had the Railcard on her and I knew it didn't end for four or five months. So this one day I didn't ask to see it, there didn't seem to be any point, sod's law it was the one day she didn't have it on her, the guard wanted to see it and was doing his job well enough to make sure I got a phone call from my boss in under an hour (from point of sale) asking me for my version of events. The next day I find out the lady had to buy a new ticket and, surprise surprise, she wasn't happy. It was my fault, you understand, for not doing my job properly, at least that's what she told me, perhaps you agree?......

Do you want this colour coded? Or can you work out which bits of the post I am referring to? I'm just trying to make it all easy to follow whilst not making it hard to understand.

 

[bb21]

Look at this realistically. A passenger needs to buy a ticket for immediate travel, he will either buy a Railcard or have one on him. If the passenger has no Railcard and wants to buy a ticket for future travel, but does not want to start his Railcard until the day of the journey for maximum validity, is that not a legitimate reason not to have the Railcard on him?

Maybe I gave the wrong impression with what I said, as if I was advocating that passengers should be as awkward as they can and refuse to show their Railcards even if they have them in their pockets. No, I certainly do not advocate that.

If you reminded the passenger of the requirement to have the Railcard with her, and still got in trouble, then I think that is a matter you need to take up with your employer. They sound like a lovely company to work for.

The "rude and aggressive" clerk? Don't be so melodramatic. If you know where one exists, I would like to know because I have not encountered any yet.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Look at this realistically. A passenger needs to buy a ticket for immediate travel, he will either buy a Railcard or have one on him....

Experience tells me otherwise.

....If the passenger has no Railcard and wants to buy a ticket for future travel, but does not want to start his Railcard until the day of the journey for maximum validity, is that not a legitimate reason not to have the Railcard on him?....

No, it isn't. The Railcard holder must present a valid Railcard when buying a discounted ticket for travel, the Railcard must also be valid for the length of time the ticket is valid.

....If you reminded the passenger of the requirement to have the Railcard with her, and still got in trouble, then I think that is a matter you need to take up with your employer. They sound like a lovely company to work for....

Like I said, she always had it on her and I made an assumption that day. If I wanted to remind her of the rules around having it in her possession, I'd have had to ask if she had it on her in the first place!

I can't moan if the company follows the rules, I'd expect it of them and they expect it of me. I was just on the wrong side of it that day because I didn't follow the rules I was supposed to follow. I learnt something from that.

....The "rude and aggressive" clerk? Don't be so melodramatic. If you know where one exists, I would like to know because I have not encountered any yet.

Everyone who is in the wrong seems to think staff were rude and aggressive against them, I was merely using that to illustrate a point.

 

[Greenback]

I'm not going to let this develop into a pointless argument. It is up to the individual reader to decide for themselves on the merits of your arguments.

 

[bnm]

As one of those individual readers, I find myself agreeing with the hairy handed one.

All the National Railcards, and the Network Railcard, have, in their Terms & Conditions, a sentence stating that you must show your Railcard before purchasing a ticket. That sentence is even in bold in many of those individual terms just to add further emphasis.

Even some of the leaflets I've seen for local Railcards also have a similar sentence in the T&Cs, nearly always with the word, 'must'.