Please help with fine!

[lr1968]

Hi everyone,

My partner and I booked through the Trainline app to travel to Manchester Airport. It was a journey with one change:
Burscough Bridge to Manchester Oxford Road
Manchester Oxford Road to Manchester Airport
This was our first time using the trains in Manchester so we were confused, to say the least. I have also attached our tickets for reference. For some reason, Trainline made the journey more confusing than it had to be, yet I can't decipher why!

Regardless, once we disembarked our first train we noticed that the trains to the airport arrived every 10 minutes whilst some were stationary for quite a while. We told a person working there that we hadn't used the line before. I showed her our Trainline tickets and asked if we could jump on the next train to the airport. She said yes so that's what we did. During this journey, the ticket inspector scanned our ticket and told us it was void. He informed us that we weren't on the correct train and issued us a fine. We explained that the person at Oxford Road told us it was okay but seeing how he wasn't there he could not confirm that.

In terms of the appeal there are two problems:
1. I have read many times that "staff are trained not to give permission" but this lady did!
2. I am aware that you need to give as much evidence as you possibly can for them to even take it seriously. However, other than the actual Trainline tickets, we don't have any evidence.

My question is: is there any point in appealing this? If so, how could I possibly word it and provide any evidence?

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi everyone,

My partner and I booked through the Trainline app to travel to Manchester Airport. It was a journey with one change:
Burscough Bridge to Manchester Oxford Road
Manchester Oxford Road to Manchester Airport
This was our first time using the trains in Manchester so we were confused, to say the least. I have also attached our tickets for reference. For some reason, Trainline made the journey more confusing than it had to be, yet I can't decipher why!

Regardless, once we disembarked our first train we noticed that the trains to the airport arrived every 10 minutes whilst some were stationary for quite a while. We told a person working there that we hadn't used the line before. I showed her our Trainline tickets and asked if we could jump on the next train to the airport. She said yes so that's what we did. During this journey, the ticket inspector scanned our ticket and told us it was void. He informed us that we weren't on the correct train and issued us a fine. We explained that the person at Oxford Road told us it was okay but seeing how he wasn't there he could not confirm that.

In terms of the appeal there are two problems:
1. I have read many times that "staff are trained not to give permission" but this lady did!
2. I am aware that you need to give as much evidence as you possibly can for them to even take it seriously. However, other than the actual Trainline tickets, we don't have any evidence.

My question is: is there any point in appealing this? If so, how could I possibly word it and provide any evidence?

Hi and welcome

I would probably help if you could give a bit more information if you can. Then people can advise you on the options you have, and their likelihood of success.

- It could be the Type of Ticket you had that caused the problem (by Type I mean Advance, Off Peak, Anytime) - does your ticket state this anywhere? Can you upload a copy of it.
- I suspect it wasn't that the ticket was 'void' but it may not have been valid on the train you got on - despite what you were told by the person you asked at the station
- Were you issued with a Penalty Fare (the exact name of what you were issued with is important)
- Can you upload a copy of any paperwork you were issued with when you were told your ticket was void (make sure any personal details and ref numbers are removed / obliterated for your confidentiality)

The problem is that tickets called Advance are sold at a discount but have no flexibility and are only valid on the exact trains specified on the itinerary sold with the ticket (with safeguards so that if such a train is cancelled you have rights about continuing your journey). Often the discount offered is simply not worth the loss in flexibility so they are not always the best ticket to buy. With services to Manchester airport where they go every few minutes there is the obvious risk of getting on the wrong trains if you just see the list of departures and see the next one to the airport that makes sense for you to get on and get to your destination. I fear that perhaps you have fallen foul of this and boarded a train that was not the exact specified service, and as such your ticket was not valid for use on that train.

Personally I never buy these tickets unless the discount being offered is worth the trade off for lack of flexibility. This is rarely the case on a relatively short journey in my view. But of course that is of little help to you now.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

A walk up through Off Peak Day Single ticket from Burscough Bridge to Manchester Airport is available priced £11.60.

Through advances are also available, routed "AP Northern Only" so won't result in travelling using TPE trains as seems to be the case here.

Not sure why the itinerary provided suggests travelling on the 1324 TPE train from Manchester Oxford Road to Manchester Piccadilly before alighting there, waiting 20+ minutes and then taking a later TPE service to Manchester Airport, as the 1324 TPE normally continues to the Airport anyway.

Wonder whether Trainline have offered the OP some restrictive combination of (booked train only) advances to get the price down? @lr1968. Can you advise?

 

[lr1968]

Hi and welcome

I would probably help if you could give a bit more information if you can. Then people can advise you on the options you have, and their likelihood of success.

- It could be the Type of Ticket you had that caused the problem (by Type I mean Advance, Off Peak, Anytime) - does your ticket state this anywhere? Can you upload a copy of it.
- I suspect it wasn't that the ticket was 'void' but it may not have been valid on the train you got on - despite what you were told by the person you asked at the station
- Were you issued with a Penalty Fare (the exact name of what you were issued with is important)
- Can you upload a copy of any paperwork you were issued with when you were told your ticket was void (make sure any personal details and ref numbers are removed / obliterated for your confidentiality)

The problem is that tickets called Advance are sold at a discount but have no flexibility and are only valid on the exact trains specified on the itinerary sold with the ticket (with safeguards so that if such a train is cancelled you have rights about continuing your journey). Often the discount offered is simply not worth the loss in flexibility so they are not always the best ticket to buy. With services to Manchester airport where they go every few minutes there is the obvious risk of getting on the wrong trains if you just see the list of departures and see the next one to the airport that makes sense for you to get on and get to your destination. I fear that perhaps you have fallen foul of this and boarded a train that was not the exact specified service, and as such your ticket was not valid for use on that train.

Personally I never buy these tickets unless the discount being offered is worth the trade off for lack of flexibility. This is rarely the case on a relatively short journey in my view. But of course that is of little help to you now.

Thank you for responding so quickly!

- I've attached a screenshot of the second train ticket. It is an advanced single so it's not looking too good.
- The ticket inspector used the word void multiple times when discussing it with us
- We were issued a penalty fare
- I have also attached an image of the actual penalty

I'm guessing regardless of the fact an official at Oxford Road said it was okay it is unlikely we would win this appeal, but thank you for all your knowledge!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==

A walk up through Off Peak Day Single ticket from Burscough Bridge to Manchester Airport is available priced £11.60.

Through advances are also available, routed "AP Northern Only" so won't result in travelling using TPE trains as seems to be the case here.

Not sure why the itinerary provided suggests travelling on the 1324 TPE train from Manchester Oxford Road to Manchester Piccadilly before alighting there, waiting 20+ minutes and then taking a later TPE service to Manchester Airport, as the 1324 TPE normally continues to the Airport anyway.

Wonder whether Trainline have offered the OP some restrictive combination of (booked train only) advances to get the price down? @lr1968. Can you advise?

This is exactly why I was confused. The route seemed really inefficient. On the app I inputted Burscough as the departure and Man Airport as the destination. It didn't really make much sense to change over at Oxford and wait at Picadilly for so long.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@lr1968. Looks from the time of issue of the Penalty Fare (= 13:38 on 04/06/2024?) that you've travelled on an earlier TPE train to Manchester Airport than was required as per your (booked train only) advance single ticket, which was the 13:51 departure from Piccadilly.

So, is this one to chalk up to experience, or are there any valid grounds to legitimately appeal the Penalty Fare?

 

[lr1968]

@lr1968. Looks from the time of issue of the Penalty Fare (= 13:38 on 04/06/2024?) that you've travelled on an earlier TPE train to Manchester Airport than was required as per your (booked train only) advance single ticket, which was the 13:51 departure from Piccadilly.

So, is this one to chalk up to experience, or are there any valid grounds to legitimately appeal the Penalty Fare?

Well I looked on the legislation site as we felt a bit wronged having been told we could jump on that train by the official at Oxford.
Under paragraph 2-
d) a person acting or purporting to act on behalf of the operator, indicated that the passenger was permitted to travel by or be present on the train without having a travel ticket

Under paragraph 3-
(a)the passenger has travelled on a preceding train;
(b)at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the first of the preceding trains, any of sub-paragraphs (a) to (d) of paragraph (2) applied

We felt as though this could somewhat apply to our situation if we were to appeal but having read the responses, this does seem like a reach!

 

[WesternLancer]

Well I looked on the legislation site as we felt a bit wronged having been told we could jump on that train by the official at Oxford.
Under paragraph 2-
d) a person acting or purporting to act on behalf of the operator, indicated that the passenger was permitted to travel by or be present on the train without having a travel ticket

Under paragraph 3-
(a)the passenger has travelled on a preceding train;
(b)at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the first of the preceding trains, any of sub-paragraphs (a) to (d) of paragraph (2) applied

We felt as though this could somewhat apply to our situation if we were to appeal but having read the responses, this does seem like a reach!

I think you should appeal on this basis if you have the time to do so. There are other benefits from appealing and you have nowt to loose as the £50 discount for prompt payment is frozen during all 3 stages of an appeal.

The problem is though lack of proof to what you were advised and in fairness to the staff their answer may have depended on how you phrased the question you asked them.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Well I looked on the legislation site as we felt a bit wronged having been told we could jump on that train by the official at Oxford.

I reckon you did actually board the correct train at Manchester Oxford Road, which was the 1324. But, your particular itinerary meant that you should then have alighted next stop at Manchester Piccadilly at 1326 and waited over twenty minutes for the following 1351 TPE train from Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport.

 

[WesternLancer]

I reckon you did actually board the correct train at Manchester Oxford Road, which was the 1324. But, your particular itinerary meant that you should then have alighted next stop at Manchester Piccadilly at 1326 and waited over twenty minutes for the following 1351 TPE train from Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport.

Just seems bonkers that any ticket retailer would be set up to do that even if I suspect it triggered a financial reduction by doing so. A costly reduction as a result of how it played out.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Just seems bonkers that any ticket retailer would be set up to do that even if I suspect it triggered a financial reduction by doing so. A costly reduction as a result of how it played out.

Indeed. Wonder how much the "saving" was compared with the more flexible £11.60 Off Peak Day Single through fare.

 

[ikcdab]

100% you should appeal. I find these situations where the railway hasn't actually lost any money, really irritating. You should make that point. Expect the first two appeals to fail, it's the third appeal that counts.

 

[WesternLancer]

Indeed. Wonder how much the "saving" was compared with the more flexible £11.60 Off Peak Day Single through fare.

Cheapest Advsnce single looks to be £3.90. I fear it won’t have been that cheap however.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Cheapest Advsnce single looks to be £3.90. I fear it won’t have been that cheap however.

Can't have been that cheap, though. The £3.90 advance is route "AP Northern Only". The OP's itinerary also included travel on TPE.

 

[WesternLancer]

Can't have been that cheap, though. The £3.90 advance is route "AP Northern Only". The OP's itinerary also included travel on TPE.

Thanks. Good point. Probably saved very little but as we know ticket retailers as well as train companies push people towards these fares when they may well not be the best thing to travel with.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I think you should appeal on this basis if you have the time to do so. There are other benefits from appealing and you have nowt to loose as the £50 discount for prompt payment is frozen during all 3 stages of an appeal.

Point of clarification for the OP as the bolded bit could be read in multiple ways

The clock is stopped during each of the up to three appeals. However it restarts in between - so if appeal one is rejected the clock starts again but stops if/when a second appeal is made. It doesn’t stop when appeal one is made and stay stopped until appeal three is rejected

 

[lr1968]

Indeed. Wonder how much the "saving" was compared with the more flexible £11.60 Off Peak Day Single through fare.

The price of one ticket came to £11.10. Such a shame

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==

Thank you for all the prompt responses and knowledge! You have all helped immensely

 

[WesternLancer]

The price of one ticket came to £11.10. Such a shame

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==

Thank you for all the prompt responses and knowledge! You have all helped immensely

Maybe try an appeal based on being given authority to board the train by a member of platform staff. But I suspect it’s a long shot. Make sure you use the official appeal process as detailed on the paperwork given (ie not a complaint to customer services for examples)

You could post your appeal wording here if you want people here to look over it.

 

[island]

The price of one ticket came to £11.10. Such a shame

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==

Thank you for all the prompt responses and knowledge! You have all helped immensely

And I wager the booking fee, which you’d not have paid if you’d bought from the station or direct from the train company, will have put it over the price of buying direct. Recommend not using Trainline.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

100% you should appeal. I find these situations where the railway hasn't actually lost any money, really irritating. You should make that point. Expect the first two appeals to fail, it's the third appeal that counts.

On what basis though? Doubt that asserting that "...the railway hasn't actually lost any money" will cut much ice.

 

[ikcdab]

On what basis though? Doubt that asserting that "...the railway hasn't actually lost any money" will cut much ice.

Maybe, maybe not. But isn't that what appeals are all about? I may have transgressed, but here are the mitigating circumstances. In this case, the passengers booked tickets and paid for them. They asked which train and were told the one they got on was ok. The railway didn't lose any money and the passengers were not trying to defraud them. Seems good grounds for appeal to me.

 

[Puffing Devil]

If you do appeal, you cannot be prosecuted.

Depending on your appetite for risk and the depth of your pockets, you could let this run to the County Court if your final appeal is unsuccessful. It would be for the judge to decide "on the balance of probabilities" if you had the required permission to travel on the train you were penalised on.

Either way, ditch the trainline and use the site booking engine for your split tickets from now on. https://tickets.railforums.co.uk/