Please help and advise

[JoWill]

I have had a letter from Northern trains saying alerted to activity on your ticket purchasing history.

They have advised me to attend an interview under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984.

If I dont reply to them or decline they say will continute to do their investigations and may prosecute.

I have been using some complimentary train passes that I got for train delays to travel for the last few months on days I needed to go in. I dont have a season ticket as was using these tickets up first.

I did have a number of train claims I made between Nov 2019 and March 2021 for when I had a season ticket and I was quite rigoruous with my claims.

Any ideas what this could be for? Worried sick at the moment.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum

We’ve seen something broadly similar a few weeks back, and you can see what I said on that thread at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/possible-suspicious-activity.224313/page-2#post-5383049. The situation there may be different from yours but I think that in broad terms the questions you need to ask yourself will be similar:

- are you entirely happy that if they knew what you can tell them the railway would see nothing wrong with how you obtained your complimentary tickets?
- and are you entirely happy that if they knew what you can tell them the railway would see nothing wrong with how you used your complimentary tickets?

If you can answer ‘yes’ to both these questions, then it seems to me that you have nothing to worry about, but the question is how you can best get the railway to stop bothering you. My suggestion would be to work with them - to go to the interview and be fully clear in what you tell them. There may be others on this site whose advice will vary.

It’s more difficult if you think that your behaviour may not have been fully above board. I think my advice then would be that you need to talk to a solicitor before getting back to the railway. I touch on that in my post in the other thread.

If you do end up going to an interview, then I would strongly recommend that you take someone with you. A solicitor would be good but expensive: a friend or relation will be cheaper but not have legal knowledge - but they will be a witness to what was said, by you and to you. You can even ask them to take notes, and it’s someone you can talk to immediately after, to check that you have understood what has just happened.

 

[Southern Beau]

- roughly how many claims did you make between Nov 2019 and Mar 2021? I believe others have suggested (certainly with Greater Anglia) that investigations started where an “above average” number of claims was made.

- have you made any delay repay claims when using a complimentary ticket?

- has anyone got a link to Northern’s Delay Repay conditions. I can’t seem to find a comprehensive document which lists things like “you must be at the departure station when claiming for the train which was delayed”. Ie: you stayed at home if LDB showed the train as delayed/cancelled, and waited for the next service in the warmth rather than at an exposed platform!

 

[AlterEgo]

I have had a letter from Northern trains saying alerted to activity on your ticket purchasing history.

They have advised me to attend an interview under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984.

If I dont reply to them or decline they say will continute to do their investigations and may prosecute.

I have been using some complimentary train passes that I got for train delays to travel for the last few months on days I needed to go in. I dont have a season ticket as was using these tickets up first.

I did have a number of train claims I made between Nov 2019 and March 2021 for when I had a season ticket and I was quite rigoruous with my claims.

Any ideas what this could be for? Worried sick at the moment.

I would not attend a PACE interview unless I had legal advice. Speak to a solicitor first - your employer or union (if you’re in one) may have a legal aid helpline facility. A solicitor would be able to advise firstly whether attending would be in your interests, and secondly they may be able to accompany you or give you advice.

Do not attend the interview otherwise. Even if you are totally above board, you may inadvertently incriminate yourself without good legal advice.

I would especially not attend the interview if I was certain I was innocent. Let them try and collect evidence without the risk of a tactless interview without representation. At present, they may feel they don’t have enough evidence to match the standard of a criminal prosecution case, which is why they are asking you to volunteer information to them.

 

[MotCO]

I would not attend a PACE interview unless I had legal advice. Speak to a solicitor first - your employer or union (if you’re in one) may have a legal aid helpline facility. A solicitor would be able to advise firstly whether attending would be in your interests, and secondly they may be able to accompany you or give you advice.

Do not attend the interview otherwise. Even if you are totally above board, you may inadvertently incriminate yourself without good legal advice.

I would especially not attend the interview if I was certain I was innocent. Let them try and collect evidence without the risk of a tactless interview without representation. At present, they may feel they don’t have enough evidence to match the standard of a criminal prosecution case, which is why they are asking you to volunteer information to them.

@AlterEgo Would there be any advantage in going to the PACE interview without legal representation if the OP feels they have done nothing wrong, and just say 'no comment' to all questions? The OP may then be able to elicit from the questions asked what the issues are.

 

[AlterEgo]

@AlterEgo Would there be any advantage in going to the PACE interview without legal representation if the OP feels they have done nothing wrong, and just say 'no comment' to all questions? The OP may then be able to elicit from the questions asked what the issues are.

Perhaps - but remember a jury can draw inferences from silence.

Whether they would be able to draw inferences from the OP not responding to a letter isn’t for me to say, and why I think the OP needs specialist advice.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I have had a letter from Northern trains saying alerted to activity on your ticket purchasing history.

I did have a number of train claims I made between Nov 2019 and March 2021 for when I had a season ticket and I was quite rigoruous with my claims.

Any ideas what this could be for?

Could be that Northern believe (rightly or wrongly) that your numerous Delay Repay claims (this when you had the season ticket) just so happened to be for the most heavily delayed service of any particular day, at various differing times of the day, so as to potentially maximise such claims.

Alternatively, have you, at any time, ever sought refunds on, or the cancellation of, day tickets, purchased electronically? This would possibly have brought you to Northern's attention if it has happened more than very occasionally.

 

[robbeech]

Do you want to be charged with fraud? is essentially what they’re getting at.
It’s a serious offence. You could go to prison.

The facts are you’re scared about it, which is exactly what they want. And when they offer you a settlement which will be the total of every single delay repay claim you’ve ever claimed from them plus a hefty admin fee (could easily be into 4 figures) they want you to be so scared that you just pay it without question. As a nice little bonus for them, you’ll never so much as dare to claim delay repay ever again from any operator for fear of having this happen again.

Of course if you’ve done nothing wrong you shouldn’t have anything to worry about but this is the railway, do you trust them?

The railway needs evidence to take you to court, it needs ZERO evidence to scare you into paying a settlement. Infact I could write to you on this very day and tell you you need to pay me £1000 or I will take you to court and it has the same weight to it.

However, if they do have evidence, then this immediately flips on its head and becomes a real problem for you.

If you have checked and can confirm you’ve done nothing wrong and just been let down more than usual by the very operator trying to get money out of you now then I would follow the advice in politely declining any interview.

 

[greyman42]

Do you want to be charged with fraud? is essentially what they’re getting at.
It’s a serious offence. You could go to prison.

Highly unlikely.

 

[Bertie the bus]

When the OP states the letter refers to their ticket purchasing history what has Delay Repay got to do with anything?

There is something going on here which the OP hasn’t stated. They say they used to have a season ticket but now use complimentary tickets when they occasionally travel. There is absolutely nothing suspicious about that, so what in their previous ticket purchasing history is suspicious? I find it incredibly unlikely that Northern are just sending out random letters to previous season ticket holders so there must be something that doesn’t look right.

 

[Southern Beau]

Could the enquiry from Northern be related to the number of delay repay claims made during the period stated when a season ticket was held? Especially if claims were made at varying times of the day (as opposed the same xx:xx journey each day).

The OP did state he was rigorous with claims made. Could Northern feel that the number was too high?

Would Northern be looking this far back? I believe Greater Anglia looked at a similar period

 

[skyhigh]

Could the enquiry from Northern be related to the number of delay repay claims made during the period stated when a season ticket was held? Especially if claims were made at varying times of the day (as opposed the same xx:xx journey each day).

The OP did state he was rigorous with claims made. Could Northern feel that the number was too high?

Would Northern be looking this far back? I believe Greater Anglia looked at a similar period

I suspect the mention of delay repay is a bit of a red herring and that the real issue is the travel pattern of having a split season ticket with a hole in the middle that was occasionally plugged with a single ticket. You can see why that would look suspicious.

 

[furlong]

Whilst the onus is on the TOC to prove wrong doing (and not for you to prove that you werent) are you able to substantiate this travel pattern?

And don't for a moment consider persuading a friend to lie for you - if caught out you could then both end up in jail.

 

[Puffing Devil]

The invitation is not a cosy chat and they are looking to build a case against you.

If they decide to prosecute they must disclose their evidence as part of the process. There is no need to add to the evidence before then.

Disclosing your specific defence before a trial allows the building of a case to demolish that defence.

I wouldn't attend. You should consult a lawyer.

 

[AlterEgo]

Given the OP has substantially edited their first post and their second, incriminating post was deleted, the only proper advice is “get a solicitor”. Sounds like the OP is in quite a bit of bother.