Please don't walk through first class

[Frontera2]

The price difference between Ecomomy and First on airlines is staggering!

With BA going LHR-LAX
Economy £580
First £11,500

Quite right too.. The whole point of Business and First is to price it at a level which keeps the "great unwashed" away, that's part of what people are paying the premium for. (That's not to say I agree with the view )

If you lower the price, you lose the exclusitivity

 

[bb21]

Cash cow really? Do you have any figures on this? There are an awful lot of empty First carriages around, and as noted they don't really put much effort, pricing-wise into making it exclusive.

Let me reword this. Cash-cow refers to those passengers who pay full First Class fares rather than any old First fare.

No, I don't have any statistics to hand, but if First Class accommodation is abolished, I doubt the shortfall would be made up by increased takings from increased patronage in Standard.

That's why I said "be careful what you wish for", not "this will not work for definite".

 

[soil]

Costs would presumably fall if there was only one class of accommodation, and I daresay it would vary from route to route, however it seems that first class is not a guaranteed winner for the railways, otherwise it would be on every type of train.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Costs would presumably fall if there was only one class of accommodation, and I daresay it would vary from route to route, however it seems that first class is not a guaranteed winner for the railways, otherwise it would be on every type of train.

I'm not sure how a 'guaranteed winner' would be apparent, but on East Coast, I contine to be impressed, despite my own predictions, on how well their First Class accomodation is filled thoughout the entire day. Sure, I can enjoy a table of four (or more!) to myself on almost every journey, but the revenue continues to accrue. What tips the balance seems to be the less obvious services, such as the one service a day which runs from Aberdeen to Leeds, with a consistent 60 to 100 in First, and several other 'unlikely' candidates.

When we consider the premium being paid, and the potential loss of passengers if First Class was remove, I'll doubt that there's evidence to suggest net revenue would improve without First Class.

 

[edwin_m]

If First Class wasn't economically viable the operators would be reducing it to the minimum permitted by their franchise agreements, and lobbying to have it removed completely (on grounds of providing a better service etc etc). As it is they are obviously making more money by providing it than they would by withdrawing it, despite it being empty or earning only low Advance fares on off-peak journeys.

However it is generally only provided on "intercity" and some South East commuter routes. The demographic on more regional routes presumably doesn't justify it.

 

[fowler9]

If First Class wasn't economically viable the operators would be reducing it to the minimum permitted by their franchise agreements, and lobbying to have it removed completely (on grounds of providing a better service etc etc). As it is they are obviously making more money by providing it than they would by withdrawing it, despite it being empty or earning only low Advance fares on off-peak journeys.

However it is generally only provided on "intercity" and some South East commuter routes. The demographic on more regional routes presumably doesn't justify it.

Are they not compelled to provide a certain number of seats as part of the franchise agreement? I'm not stating this as fact, just asking. I really don't know how it works.

 

[jon0844]

Quite possibly, although I don't know if there's any quota for first class.

First class being converted to standard could mean more seats, but you'd then lose that extra revenue that is probably subsidising other passengers.

What I'd say is that if first class is well used in the peaks and at certain other times, operators can look at cheaper upgrades or declassifying one carriage at certain times.

I'd favour a discounted upgrade, and suspect some people would pay rather than stand if they existed. Extra money for the TOC...

 

[fowler9]

Quite possibly, although I don't know if there's any quota for first class.

First class being converted to standard could mean more seats, but you'd then lose that extra revenue that is probably subsidising other passengers.

What I'd say is that if first class is well used in the peaks and at certain other times, operators can look at cheaper upgrades or declassifying one carriage at certain times.

I'd favour a discounted upgrade, and suspect some people would pay rather than stand if they existed. Extra money for the TOC...

I guess some who paid the full price for first would complain if it suddenly filled up with standard class passengers paying a few quid extra but less than they did. Who knows. Actually, I imagine someone knows and the research has been done. Ha ha.

I swear down that looking from the bottom of my garden (The ultimate statistical proof) that even before the Pendolinos came in the West Coast mark 3 rakes got shorter and had a higher percentage of first class following privatisation. I'm sure someone on here can prove me right or wrong. I don't mind which, I would be interested to know.

 

[jon0844]

I'd only suggest upgrades at less busy times. If people upgrade, they'll become first class ticket holders so nobody could really complain. These people could have all bought tickets in advance after all.

But, yes, someone probably did research. Although that's not always as successful as trying something.

 

[fowler9]

I'd only suggest upgrades at less busy times. If people upgrade, they'll become first class ticket holders so nobody could really complain. These people could have all bought tickets in advance after all.

But, yes, someone probably did research. Although that's not always as successful as trying something.

Ha ha. Very good point. Mid day first to accompany weekend first could be fun. I'd certainly take the day off on Friday to visit mates in London and travel First for a bit of a change. That said, you can get a good deal on an advanced ticket for what I suggested.

 

[A-driver]

I think first class on some commuter routes is used far more than people think. Especially off peak. Certainly on the Peterbourgh and Cambridge/Lynn commuter trains we see pretty much all first class seats used in the morning peak and then from about 1300 onwards on the northbound trains out if London. The evening peak between 5-6 can be quiet in first and it then gets far lighter in the evening bar a few trains but the later evening trains are generally quieter than the afternoon ones.

It's certainly not uncommon to find the 1323,1423&1523 Peterbourgh trains from kings cross having more free seats in standard than first (percentage wise).

 

[PG]

If First Class wasn't economically viable the operators would be reducing it to the minimum permitted by their franchise agreements, and lobbying to have it removed completely (on grounds of providing a better service etc etc). As it is they are obviously making more money by providing it than they would by withdrawing it, despite it being empty or earning only low Advance fares on off-peak journeys.

However it is generally only provided on "intercity" and some South East commuter routes. The demographic on more regional routes presumably doesn't justify it.

Would it be that (some) MPs might get a tad upset if they couldn't get to the palace, ie London, First Class but they don't travel very often on the more regional routes

 

[OLJR]

First class being converted to standard could mean more seats, but you'd then lose that extra revenue that is probably subsidising other passengers.

Eliminating 1ST could push up STD fares for some passengers.

Those people currently paying 1ST Advance fares ahead of travel would, in the absence of 1ST and if they still travelled by train, purchase STD Advances instead.

The extra demand would sometimes cause STD Advance fares to close out when those passengers who currently pay for STD make their purchase, causing them to either pay a higher fare or take alternative transport.

I think first class on some commuter routes is used far more than people think. Especially off peak

I always take 1ST on commuter routes, including Paddington-Maidenhead, Vauxhall-Ascot and King's Cross to Cambridge. I find the extra privacy and the table well worth paying for.

On SWT especially the 1ST compartment is also physically more pleasant and a much nicer place to spend 30-60 minutes, with a blue colour scheme and carpets rather than the bright red seat covers and filthy lino floors in STD.

Now I don't find 1ST on commuter trains a particularly great experience, but it is certainly much better than STD and so I am prepared to pay for it!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I seem to recall on NSE that 1st revenue (in aggregate) was around 7% across the whole operation , so well worth the yield considering the vast tranches of standard class only services.

Another anecdote - joining an up South Eastern train at Bromley South in year dot - another 4-VEP , had a "working man" in there , guard checked tickets and passes. OK . He must have sensed the initial "schadenfreud" from the "suits" - so he says to me "I work hard mate - and I "must" have a decent journey to set me up for my graft" - fair play to him all those years ago....

 

[maniacmartin]

Going back to the airlines, the only way that they can offer economy class tickets for the price they do is because the business/first class travellers subsidise it. Once you've taken fuel costs and taxes into account, you've basically spent the whole of an economy ticket. But the airline still has to pay to lease the plane, staffing, airport slots, maintenance, advertising etc. I fear that removing the first class area will cause more of these expenses to be loaded onto economy passengers' fares.

 

[Hellfire]

Going back to the airlines, the only way that they can offer economy class tickets for the price they do is because the business/first class travellers subsidise it. Once you've taken fuel costs and taxes into account, you've basically spent the whole of an economy ticket. But the airline still has to pay to lease the plane, staffing, airport slots, maintenance, advertising etc. I fear that removing the first class area will cause more of these expenses to be loaded onto economy passengers' fares.

If that is the case how do airlines who only have economy class seats manage to pay their way? Many charter airlines operate economy class only and certainly the budget carriers such as Easy Jet and Ryanair do.

Not only that, they usually undercut the economy fares of the so called full service airlines without any subsidy from first or business class.

 

[sheff1]

Going back to the airlines, the only way that they can offer economy class tickets for the price they do is because the business/first class travellers subsidise it.

I can't buy that argument when a not insignificant number of flights are economy only.

 

[Flamingo]

If that is the case how do airlines who only have economy class seats manage to pay their way? Many charter airlines operate economy class only and certainly the budget carriers such as Easy Jet and Ryanair do.

Not only that, they usually undercut the economy fares of the so called full service airlines without any subsidy from first or business class.

It's well known that Ryanair's business model includes the excess luggage and other "optional" charges levied on the unsuspecting.

A family member used to work on check-in at an airport used by Ryanair, and they had weekly quotas in excess baggage charges they had to meet (and got seriously hassled if they didn't).

 

[fowler9]

It's well known that Ryanair's business model includes the excess luggage and other "optional" charges levied on the unsuspecting.

A family member used to work on check-in at an airport used by Ryanair, and they had weekly quotas in excess baggage charges they had to meet (and got seriously hassled if they didn't).

To be fair that still doesn't make the price up to that of a first or business class ticket (With another carrier of course).

 

[jon0844]

Ryanair has spent many years working out ways to get people to pay a LOT more than the ticket price. The days of a genuine 50p single ticket are long gone, unless you really compromise and play the game - and that's just not worth the effort (hence Michael O'Leary finally realising it's time to stop p**sing off the passengers).

Besides those super cheap sub-£10 tickets, some people on the same plane would have been paying £100-200, and still getting the exact same service. No extras, no lounge.. nothing - just paying the higher price that covers the cheap tickets. That's the way it was designed to work. Yet, I could never understand how Ryanair could sell tickets once they got to a certain price.

Now flying mostly with BA or SAS, I can say that I remember getting offered cheap upgrades to business on multiple occasions (where you do get a little more than economy, such as the lounge and nobody sitting in the middle seat - and maybe some free food).

It would have been possible to upgrade relatively late in the day and pay less than a full price Ryanair economy ticket - and even more recently, with all the extra fees levied by Ryanair that everyone will eventually fall foul of, I bet some people actually pay more.

So really it doesn't matter if one airline ONLY has economy and another has economy/business or first. It's how much the flight generates overall - and Ryanair was doing very well from that, especially when it was initially catching people out before they wised (the passenger) wised up.

Some played the game to continue paying as little as possible, but many more just stuck their fingers up to Michael, such as myself.

 

[Toad]

There is absolutely no reason why someone without a First Class ticket should be in First Class at any time !!

If you want to be in, walk through First Class......pay up - Period !!


And don't even go there on this with Railtours

'I want to listen to the engine' - Get out clown !!!!!

 

[455driver]

RyanAir make their money by turning the plane (and crew) around in the absolute minimum amount of time so they maximise the passenger carrying time.

Compare that to the way BA operate their planes, I am not saying BA are slack just that they are happy for a plane to sit on the tarmac for a while longer so BA would get less work out of each plane (and crew) than an equivalent RyanAir plane.


What any of this aircraft stuff has got to do with people walking from scum class into 1st class is lost on me.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I can see that having a throng of people walking past your seat prior to the train stopping would be annoying regardless of class especially if you are trying to get up and get ready to join the throng. It happens all the time in Standard class anyway. You either get up first or wait till the coach is emptying. Is this more noticeable in the sparsely populated first class perhaps ?.

Similar problem on the planes at landing time - impatience that is (with due respect to late running vs connections). As soon as the wheels touch the runway the fasten belt signs are ignored and people are up and removing luggage from the overhead lockers. My better half had her head bashed this way. Airlines should lock the overhead lockers until the plane has parked. I sit there until I can see the exit is clear. I still have to wait to collect the checked-in luggage anyway. If it was a crash landing I would be up with elbows deployed mind you .

 

[jon0844]

What airline has people unbuckling and getting up as soon as the plane is on the tarmac? Remind me never to fly with them. You shouldn't either - take a stand (not literally!).

I've flown hundreds of times and only had the odd idiot try and stand up and cabin crew are usually very quick to get them down, if other passengers don't first.

Most people turn on their mobiles, but thankfully it's now allowed to do so. Far better people send their texts to say they've arrived than be trying to get bags down while the plane is still moving.

 

[sarahj]

Ryan air also saves money by flying to smaller places with less landing fees, and being smaller, able to turn around in a short time. Sometimes the local airport has paid them to land, so to increase tourisim.
Noteable places than Ryan air dont fly to include Paris, Brussels (leige), Frankfurt (hahn), Copenhagen.

The equivelent of the rail would be east coast going only from the north to peterbrough, west coast to milton keynes, great west to Reading, southern to purley to avoid paying more expensive track charges into London. And then bussing everyone in to central london.

 

[Drsatan]

Of course, a lot of these smaller airports Ryanair fly to are miles away from the city they're supposed to serve. A good example would be Frankfurt Hahn airport which, according to Wikipedia, is 73 miles from Frankfurt Hbf.

When taking into account the time needed to travel to and from the airport, along with the money spent on traveling, the savings offered by Ryanair aren't as considerable as they might appear to be.

 

[ryan125hst]

A family member used to work on check-in at an airport used by Ryanair, and they had weekly quotas in excess baggage charges they had to meet (and got seriously hassled if they didn't).

That's ridiculous! What were they supposed to do if it was near the end of the week and they hadn't reached their quota? Lean on the scales? :roll:

 

[jon0844]

That's ridiculous! What were they supposed to do if it was near the end of the week and they hadn't reached their quota? Lean on the scales? :roll:

Perhaps discretion was sometimes shown, as is often the case on other airlines, and the targets reminded staff never to let passengers off anything?

 

[Bald Rick]

If that is the case how do airlines who only have economy class seats manage to pay their way? Many charter airlines operate economy class only and certainly the budget carriers such as Easy Jet and Ryanair do.

Not only that, they usually undercut the economy fares of the so called full service airlines without any subsidy from first or business class.

Apples and pears.

Slightly OT...

As has been hinted at above, they operate different business models. The low cost carriers drive cost out to offer cheaper headline prices, with Ryanair at the extreme. It's well known they work their planes harder and pay their people less (or try to, see the recent legal challenge in France), but there are other elements - staff have to pay for their own uniforms and office staff are not allowed to charge their mobile phones in the office. O'Leary himself is on record about not ever buying stationery for his office, he 'liberates' it from hotels / conferences etc. But they also charge whopping fares closer to the day of the flight and will often charge more than full service competitors. Ryanair are also very good at developing niche markets, becoming an effective monopoly and charging accordingly.

The full service airlines though aim to generate revenue through, well, fuller service. They will compete on price with the low cost carriers in some markets, but in others they don't need to.

However, the sands are shufting now that fuel and taxes form such a large proportion of the cost of a UK originating flight. Also aircraft leasing costs are broadly similar on a like for like basis whatever airline you are. Thus an airline's controllable cost is now quite a small proportion of total cost.

So the trend in airlines now is to spend more effort driving yield up, partly through more differential pricing, and partly by being nicer to their customers. Easyjet sussed this 3 years ago (e.g. introduction of flex fares, pick your seat etc) - and look at their shareprice since. O'Leary appears to have only cottoned on in the last 6 months.

 

[edwin_m]

That's ridiculous! What were they supposed to do if it was near the end of the week and they hadn't reached their quota? Lean on the scales? :roll:

Not Ryanair but BMIbaby as was, but presumably a similar business model. I was on a flight from Jersey a couple of years ago when two of their staff appeared at the gate and started re-checking everyone's hand baggage dimensions, much more rigorously than was done at check-in and no doubt some baggage had "grown" a little due to purchases afterwards. Several bags were transferred to the hold with the owners being charged handsomely for the privilege. All this messing around actually delayed the flight.