Plaxton - ADL missing a trick?

[ClydeCoaster]

With Plaxton “not dead, but resting” at the moment, the UK is missing on a home brand coach offering as it stands. All the statistics point to an extremely buoyant coach market, lead times are long on some European products allowing Yutong to wedge its way quite quickly into the sector. Irizar sales are so strong (through to 2026) that they’re opening a new 4Ha site in Blyth. In fleet news in Buses magazine there’s constant news of new Temsas, Tourismos, Tourliners and Tourings.

Is ADL missing a trick with Plaxton?

I know Plaxton pinned all it’s products on Volvo (who are pretty much missing in action at the moment, with only the B8R Evotor) but could it not have been evolved into an Irizar or Beulas type coachbuilder? Go to Spain and there’s Irizar and Beulas bodied Scania, Mercedes, MAN, Volvo and VDL (Beulas)/Integral (Irizar).

I know ADL are flat out at Scarborough producing buses and that’s clearly a more productive and profitable use of the premises. I also know Plaxton’s range was getting long in the tooth but there was no investment at all. I can’t help but feel we’ve lost that market sector now and I can’t see Plaxton coming back. Perhaps coaches are too niche for ADL.

Enter Wrightbus with their new coach offering?

 

[37114]

ADL are flat out at Scarborough producing buses and that’s clearly a more productive and profitable use of the premises

Exactly this reason. There is only so much investment that they will want to make and why invest in a very competitive market with better established competition when you can invest in a core product where you can be market leader. I think the "We are taking a break" is code for "We are not planning on coming back but don't want to close the door fully..."

 

[GCH100]

It might be based on orders, if demand and orders should slump in the bus market, but not in the travel market, then we will offer coaches, but with newly elected Mayors entering the big Cities, the bus market for new buses might not be dead for sometime.

Volvo is someone who really neads to find a new market partner, as the MCV models are not going to attract a large market place as operators associate MCV with buses. Irizar bodied Volvo's would be a good offering as they are offered in more or less every other European Country and in Australia (Right hand drive), so why not here????

 

[johnw]

I understand that some of the issues have been with Volvo updating its chassis range and ADL not wanting to invest in updating the bodywork to accommodate it, however the Leopard seemed to sell well.

Plaxton spent much of the 2010s bringing to market bespoke models for Stagecoach such as the Elite I, Panorama, Panther LE which have had limited success outside of these orders. Plaxton entered the 2020s with the mainstream Panther being 25 years old albeit with a couple of face lifts. Putting the need for capacity at Scarborough for bus production aside, maybe if a replacement model for the Panther had been developed 10 years ago, things might have looked different.

 

[GusB]

I understand that some of the issues have been with Volvo updating its chassis range and ADL not wanting to invest in updating the bodywork to accommodate it, however the Leopard seemed to sell well.

That Volvo has updated its chassis shouldn't be a massive hurdle to overcome with modern computer aided design, especially with a company that has built on multiple different Volvo chassis over the years, not to mention those of many other manufacturers.

I suspect that there's simply not enough profit per unit for it to be viable without sufficient volume. In the last couple of years Plaxton has built a certain number of Leopards and Panthers for stock, while other models have been "build to order". Is Volvo charging too much? I can't remember where I read it, but I recall reading that the relationship between one body builder and Volvo was "fraught" (I'll have a dig for the source), and there was a bit of friction with Sunsundegui recently.

Plaxton spent much of the 2010s bringing to market bespoke models for Stagecoach such as the Elite I, Panorama, Panther LE which have had limited success outside of these orders. Plaxton entered the 2020s with the mainstream Panther being 25 years old albeit with a couple of face lifts. Putting the need for capacity at Scarborough for bus production aside, maybe if a replacement model for the Panther had been developed 10 years ago, things might have looked different.

The range is getting on a bit, certainly. I think there's also an element of Plaxton being squeezed by manufacturers like Temsa, King Long and Yutong at the cheaper end of the market, while some operators now opt for higher-end coaches from Mercedes and Neoplan. One company local to me has examples of both in its fleet where 35-40 years ago it was Bedfords and Dennis Javelins.

What AD/Plaxton should be developing is an electric coach, either a complete in-house integral design or built on a platform such as the Volvo BZR, although it would hinge on that chassis being available in the UK first. Otherwise they're going to lose that market to Yutong or perhaps Wright.

* The link to the article is in this post:

Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

Thanks. In which case based on the Kwh/KM both the ADL and Wright products are way in front of Volvo. I ask myself why of course. Volvo has an overall smaller battery and is only using 20% of its full capacity. The ADL product is using a slightly larger battery but is using 88% of its overall...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Ghostbus]

This probably reflects them being owned by Americans, no?

What is it to them for ADL not to have a UK spec electric coach in production much less in development?

I saw a Yutong coach glide past me the other day, a heavyweight high spec cruiser for a small UK domestic tour operator based hundreds of miles away. I wasn't even surprised. Must be perfectly serviceable kit, well worth a major commitment.

 

[scosutsut]

I hope I'm wrong but I suspect tough times are ahead for them and shrinking the markets they operate in doesn't feel like a sensible strategy.

I look at what's seen as Wrightbus's complete turnaround in the 7 years, positioning themselves well for diesel orders tailing off by having electric and hydrogen options (albeit not perfect ones at that.)

I think AD have been too slow to market with their new electric range and have done nothing seemingly to address build quality.

If I'm a operator of E200 rattleboxes and I'm looking to go electric, will experience and loyalty be enough to have me looking at the new electric AD offering over the (I presume) cheaper, much more established and well liked Yutong E10/12 range?

In the last few years their competitors have got more numerous, established and able in most cases are at least perceived to be better quality.

I think they'll soldier on, but it won't be pretty. They already lash out frequently to the press about various aspects of the UK market being unfair, victim mentality at a corporate level is an ugly look and usually, in my experience a bad sign.

 

[ClydeCoaster]

I look at what's seen as Wrightbus's complete turnaround in the 7 years, positioning themselves well for diesel orders tailing off by having electric and hydrogen options (albeit not perfect ones at that.)

Let's not forget they have a working driveline demonstrator for a hydrogen coach. Hydrogen may still be a while off, may even still be a pipe dream, but they are investing and working on one. They've also stated that various lengths, as well as double deck option will be offered, and haven't ruled out offering it with other coachwork.

ADL (Canadian owned I think?) do seem behind the curve on many aspects. Build quality is definitely an issue also (the embarrassment of their E200EVs being pulled off the streets in Glasgow...), though I do seem to notice build quality seems to be better on Plaxton built buses. How the relationship with Volvo ended up fraught would be interesting to know. I also wonder why the BYD partnership didn't continue, which could obviously just be as simple as BYD had new blade technology batteries and wanted to offer a complete product, but scenes like Glasgow must have dented BYD's pride.

Back to Plaxton, how big an order makes something worth while to build? The Panther LE certainly wasn't exactly huge numbers - even though it had the potential to, again if they adapted it, as Bus Eireann was in the market for a low entry coach and turned to Sunsundegui.

 

[padbus]

Let's not forget they have a working driveline demonstrator for a hydrogen coach. Hydrogen may still be a while off, may even still be a pipe dream, but they are investing and working on one. They've also stated that various lengths, as well as double deck option will be offered, and haven't ruled out offering it with other coachwork.

ADL (Canadian owned I think?) do seem behind the curve on many aspects. Build quality is definitely an issue also (the embarrassment of their E200EVs being pulled off the streets in Glasgow...), though I do seem to notice build quality seems to be better on Plaxton built buses. How the relationship with Volvo ended up fraught would be interesting to know. I also wonder why the BYD partnership didn't continue, which could obviously just be as simple as BYD had new blade technology batteries and wanted to offer a complete product, but scenes like Glasgow must have dented BYD's pride.

Back to Plaxton, how big an order makes something worth while to build? The Panther LE certainly wasn't exactly huge numbers - even though it had the potential to, again if they adapted it, as Bus Eireann was in the market for a low entry coach and turned to Sunsundegui.

ADL is owned by NFI Group which is based in Winnipeg, Canada. NFI also owns MCI which is a significant player in the North American coach market. Perhaps an MCI coach could form the basis of a new model for Plaxton. Photo shows an MCI J Series coach on rail replacement work in Boston.

 

[ClydeCoaster]

Low and behold Wright have moved very quickly to fill the void. Granted their first diesel option is a rebadged King Long, but with the hydrogen coach debuting later this year to be introduced in 2026 (first as an overdecker), they're definitely out to make hay in the "coach renaissance" as they put it in the article in Route One (link below). In the article about the Wright Contour they even take a veiled swipe at Plaxton's "rest":

Speaking of the company’s return to coach manufacturing, Wrightbus CEO Jean-Marc Gales had repeated previous comments that the move is a long-term plan to help address a paucity of vehicle supply. “When we heard there was no coach manufacturing in the UK, we said ‘that can’t be the case’,” he explains

Wrightbus back to coach with Contour diesel and hydrogen future - routeone

Wrightbus has returned to coach with the Contour, a new diesel-powered two-axle model built in partnership with King Long.

www.route-one.net

 

[Blindtraveler]

Out of all the coach products they've built in the last decade, the one that most disappointed me in terms of not going any further than the number they built for Stagecoach was the panther le

A really ideal solution for so many inter-urban type services that are are currently run unsuitably with the likes of e200s or a little less unsuitably by the increasingly common Volvo mcv combination which does seem do quite well on longer distance work, mixture of major, a roads and pelting down. Jewel carriageways.
As has been said before, adl's problem is build quality and finish. I recently experienced one of the new integral electric deckers and whilst this was new and still fairly felt free, I have no doubt that all the usual standard ADL problems will appear in fairly short order. And certainly if I owned a transport company I wouldn't really be interested in any of their products because there are alternatives and I don't know if I'd buy from wright either for the same reasons

 

[Ghostbus]

In the article about the Wright Contour they even take a veiled swipe at Plaxton's "rest":

Nice to see a bit of needle.

Greed is good and all that.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Out of all the coach products they've built in the last decade, the one that most disappointed me in terms of not going any further than the number they built for Stagecoach was the panther le

A really ideal solution for so many inter-urban type services that are are currently run unsuitably with the likes of e200s

The trouble with the Panther LE was its size, at 14.6m it was really only any good for long-distance express work predominantly on trunk roads. It was great for the Edinburgh to Fife express work that it was bought by Stagecoach for, but beyond that it was simply too big for a lot of stagecarriage operators but- because of the low floor- didn't have the luggage space that coaching operators require. A bit like the Scania Omnilink, ultimately it was neither one thing nor the other.

And the size really is an issue. Go North East ended up with a batch of Elite i interdeck coaches- slightly longer at 15m, but only just- and they couldn't even fit them in the bus station in Newcastle.

 

[scosutsut]

The Panther LE struck me as a genuine effort to innovate, but it's not paid off in orders that's why coach seated heavyweight buses (that until recent times we'd have deferred to as "dual purpose") and coaches prevail.

 

[Ghostbus]

Slightly related I guess, has there ever been another attempt at creating a high floor singled deck school bus which for all intents and purposes looked like a budget coach with more of a coach like chassis/engine? Wright did something for N.I., presumably due to their rural/hilly terrain, but not sure if they ever actually intended it to be anything else or even for anyone else, or if it even had underfloor storage or coach like sturdyness/durability. We have lifts now, so if you need a high floor for whatever reason, it's no biggie right? Other than cost, weight, capacity. But other than that....

 

[EnviroExplorer]

One vehicle combination that hasn’t been mentioned in all this talk of Plaxton’s innovative Panther LE, is the similar Sunsundegui SB3 taken in significant numbers by Transport for Ireland.

Like the Panther LE they’re built on the Volvo B8RLE chassis but are standard two axle variants instead, with overhead luggage racks. I suppose being a completely foreign vehicle in more ways than one, they’re unlikely to be seen over here in Britain though.

I’ve attached a few photos of the aforementioned Sunsundeguis I took a few years back, well worth a ride if you ever come across them.

 

[markymark2000]

I suppose being a completely foreign vehicle in more ways than one, they’re unlikely to be seen over here in Britain though.

Sunsundeguis and VDLs are quite popular in Ireland but for some reason they haven't managed to make to make things work as well in the UK.

You also say that as the vehicle is foreign, it's unlikely to be seen in Britian, yet Yutong is Chinese and they are pumping out vehicles like there is no tomorrow.

 

[Andyh82]

Slightly related I guess, has there ever been another attempt at creating a high floor singled deck school bus which for all intents and purposes looked like a budget coach with more of a coach like chassis/engine? Wright did something for N.I., presumably due to their rural/hilly terrain, but not sure if they ever actually intended it to be anything else or even for anyone else, or if it even had underfloor storage or coach like sturdyness/durability. We have lifts now, so if you need a high floor for whatever reason, it's no biggie right? Other than cost, weight, capacity. But other than that....

The MOBIpeople Explorer seems to often fit that bill. There are quite a few kicking around with various operators near me, and they often seem to be in 3+2 formation

 

[Steve440]

The Panther LE struck me as a genuine effort to innovate, but it's not paid off in orders that's why coach seated heavyweight buses (that until recent times we'd have deferred to as "dual purpose") and coaches prevail.

Strange that one featured in this article: https://www.route-one.net/news/transport-for-wales-explores-new-south-to-north-wales-coach-service/
I know that they did trial one vehicle and it seems to be the ideal solution!