Platform Lengths on the Cumbrian Coast

[a_c_skinner]

Last week I was rail roving (off again today) and observed staff from Northern and Network Rail with a click wheel measuring the platforms at St Bees. I asked and was told this was to decide how much more platform needed bringing back in to use (Tarmac and weeding) to accommodate the DRS loco/hauled stock/DBSO trains from the May timetable. Presumably they are doing this in many places.

Also 37609 stood light engine in the Northbound side with no less than 7 staff in the two cabs waiting for my train to vacate the single line stretch. The man from Northern said this was a training run, but wasn't sure if this was route learning or a large number of trainees they had taken on.

AS

 

[deltic08]

Last week I was rail roving (off again today) and observed staff from Northern and Network Rail with a click wheel measuring the platforms at St Bees. I asked and was told this was to decide how much more platform needed bringing back in to use (Tarmac and weeding) to accommodate the DRS loco/hauled stock/DBSO trains from the May timetable. Presumably they are doing this in many places.

Also 37609 stood light engine in the Northbound side with no less than 7 staff in the two cabs waiting for my train to vacate the single line stretch. The man from Northern said this was a training run, but wasn't sure if this was route learning or a large number of trainees they had taken on.

AS

They are wasting their time and money at St Bees. With the public school closing there in July after 400 years, the station will see very little footfall after that.

 

[themiller]

I've heard a rumour that Northern want them extending from the current 2-coach lengths where the platforms have been neglected.
At Ravenglass, the bridge over the road into the village has been replaced by a new one this year. The old bridge had the up platform extending over it. The new bridge has no provision for a platform so the up platform is being extended by about one coach length at the south end. The new bridge is concrete troughs so enabling the track to lie in ballast unlike the old situation which had the rails fastened to longitudinal timbers. I took a few photos so if anyone is interested I can supply them to an e-mail address.

 

[rwebster]

Very interesting - I was sat at Askam for half an hour whilst similar click-wheeling was going on! Interesting to hear on-the-ground discussions about where the stopping point would have to be in relation to the signal and level crossing (where the Network Rail chap was indicating that the preference is generally to leave the crossing open until the train is ready to leave), and discussion as to whether single-door boarding would be acceptable for a loco-hauled train or some tarmaccing of the grass part of the platform would be needed.

 

[jopsuk]

Pity that with all this work for them that DRS aren't fitting out their mark 2 rakes with powered doors (the installation of which would be an opportunity for an SDO system)

 

[yorksrob]

Pity that with all this work for them that DRS aren't fitting out their mark 2 rakes with powered doors (the installation of which would be an opportunity for an SDO system)

The obsession with powered doors is a waste of money IMO.

 

[47802]

The obsession with powered doors is a waste of money IMO.

Indeed in any case isn't the contract only for 2 years anyway so likely not worth the cost.

Do we know how many carriages they are going to have? 3 or 4? 3 wouldn't be much of an improvement over a 156 seating wise.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed in any case isn't the contract only for 2 years anyway so likely not worth the cost.

Do we know how many carriages they are going to have? 3 or 4? 3 wouldn't be much of an improvement over a 156 seating wise.

156's do seem to be particularly suited to the route. You'd hope they'd have at least 4 to build in a capacity improvement.

 

[a_c_skinner]

I had assumed that the motivation behind the loco hauled stock was to increase capacity markedly for Sellafield commuters.

The St Bees team were looking at the crossing and signal sighting. I asked if the trains were topped and tailed but no, a DBSO at one end, they said, so if the platforms need significant extensions (and they were a long way into the scrub) I supposed it meant more seats.

Andrew

 

[Darandio]

I had assumed that the motivation behind the loco hauled stock was to increase capacity markedly for Sellafield commuters

I don't think there was hardly any uptake when they had a dedicated service for them a few years back?

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think there was hardly any uptake when they had a dedicated service for them a few years back?

I've been on a 153 full of Sellafield workers before, so they obviously have a few.

 

[IslandDweller]

"I don't think there was hardly any uptake when they had a dedicated service for them a few years back?"
Sellafield has reduced on site parking, which may push more workers towards the train. Another factor, Unlikely as it sounds, is that local roads are grid locked during shift change times.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The obsession with powered doors is a waste of money IMO.

Rob I agree with much of what you post on here but on this occasion I'm afraid you are wrong. Having to lean out to open a door on a train is an inconvenience and I've seen many people struggle with this over the years. You surely cannot argue against powered doors being more convenient. In so many different ways if we are to sell rail transport to the occasional user it has to be convenient and that includes doors!
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"I don't think there was hardly any uptake when they had a dedicated service for them a few years back?"
Sellafield has reduced on site parking, which may push more workers towards the train. Another factor, Unlikely as it sounds, is that local roads are grid locked during shift change times.

My youngest son is studying Chemical Engineering at Nottingham Uni and is on a years placement at Sellafield. Whenever we ring him he always complains about the congestion after work. He was considering buying a motor bike but I think the heavy rainfall that occurs in Cumbria put him off. Once a parent always a parent and I think we would worry a lot more if he'd bought one.

 

[thenorthern]

Braystones and Nethertown are quite short platforms but I doubt its worth lengthening them given the low number of passengers using the platforms.

 

[yorksrob]

Rob I agree with much of what you post on here but on this occasion I'm afraid you are wrong. Having to lean out to open a door on a train is an inconvenience and I've seen many people struggle with this over the years. You surely cannot argue against powered doors being more convenient. In so many different ways if we are to sell rail transport to the occasional user it has to be convenient and that includes doors!

They are, but how much are we willing to pay for them - particularly on older rolling stock. Plus, if the money were available, would passengers prefer a less overall accommodation and a more crowded journey, or a comfortable train with adequate accommodation and a marginally inconvenient door. Given they all have central locking, I wonder whether a more suitable work around might be to put a handle on the inside of the door to make things easier

 

[Ash Bridge]

They are, but how much are we willing to pay for them - particularly on older rolling stock. Plus, if the money were available, would passengers prefer a less overall accommodation and a more crowded journey, or a comfortable train with adequate accommodation and a marginally inconvenient door. Given they all have central locking, I wonder whether a more suitable work around might be to put a handle on the inside of the door to make things easier

That is very good point! I always wondered why they couldn't have fitted internal handles when secondary locking is installed, I'm sure I recall BR were considering this when mk2/3 stock were first modified, so why didn't it happen?

 

[najaB]

Given they all have central locking, I wonder whether a more suitable work around might be to put a handle on the inside of the door to make things easier

I believe, but could be wrong, that the problem with a handle on the inside is that it the geometry makes it easier put more force against the door and so passengers can overwhelm the lock. This means that the doors would require beefier or additional locks.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I believe, but could be wrong, that the problem with a handle on the inside is that it the geometry makes it easier put more force against the door and so passengers can overwhelm the lock. This means that the doors would require beefier or additional locks.

Yes, it seems you would be correct. Just been reading a Porterbrook brochure, albeit about mk3 stock, and it appears the current door locking mechanism isn't sufficiently robust enough, so presumably the same would apply to mk2s also.

 

[yorksrob]

That's very interesting - so in essence, a HST door lock is less robust than a VEP one

 

[Ash Bridge]

That's very interesting - so in essence, a HST door lock is less robust than a VEP one

Was wondering, could it be due to the fact that mk2/3 doors are large wraparound affairs, and therefore heavier than those found on a VEP, or indeed any mk1 vehicle?

 

[RichmondCommu]

They are, but how much are we willing to pay for them - particularly on older rolling stock. Plus, if the money were available, would passengers prefer a less overall accommodation and a more crowded journey, or a comfortable train with adequate accommodation and a marginally inconvenient door. Given they all have central locking, I wonder whether a more suitable work around might be to put a handle on the inside of the door to make things easier

Well I would argue that if you have to push the window down and fumble around for the door handle that is more than a marginal inconvenience. However in order to avoid spending a fortune on 40 year old coaches then yes I concur that putting a handle on the inside of the door would certainly improve matters. I seem to remember seeing an internal door handle on mk3's but its many, many years since I traveled on mk2 stock so I can't recall whether they had them fitted or not.

 

[yorksrob]

Was wondering, could it be due to the fact that mk2/3 doors are large wraparound affairs, and therefore heavier than those found on a VEP, or indeed any mk1 vehicle?

That could be it. A fair bit of extra weight in those doors !

 

[Ash Bridge]

Well I would argue that if you have to push the window down and fumble around for the door handle that is more than a marginal inconvenience. However in order to avoid spending a fortune on 40 year old coaches then yes I concur that putting a handle on the inside of the door would certainly improve matters. I seem to remember seeing an internal door handle on mk3's but its many, many years since I traveled on mk2 stock so I can't recall whether they had them fitted or not.

When the first mk2d Aircon stock went into service in 1971 it was soon realised that the entrance doors were much to easy to open from the inside. There were apparently 3 or 4 fatalities during that year with passengers falling to their deaths. Mods were hastily made to vehicles still under construction, which included the handle/lock being enclosed in a shroud, but the situation was deemed so serious that by late 1971 BR decided to remove the inside handle completely and replace it with a cover plate. At the same time the droplights (which were apparently unopenable as built)were released and fitted with a spring mechanism to allow it to return to the closed position after the alighting passenger had opened the door from the outside handle.

 

[snowball]

When the first mk2d Aircon stock went into service in 1971 it was soon realised that the entrance doors were much to easy to open from the inside. There were apparently 3 or 4 fatalities during that year with passengers falling to their deaths.

I seem to remember reading that there was a cluster of them around Colwich, far enough for someone who's been drinking since Euston to feel the call of nature.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I seem to remember reading that there was a cluster of them around Colwich, far enough for someone who's been drinking since Euston to feel the call of nature.

Didn't a stretch of the WCML gain the title of the "Tamworth Triangle" during the 1990s because of these incidents?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Didn't a stretch of the WCML gain the title of the "Tamworth Triangle" during the 1990s because of these incidents?

Yes it did. My wife and I have been travelling up the WCML to visit my in-laws for the last 25 years (give or take) and at the time it was rather unnerving to say the least.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

When the first mk2d Aircon stock went into service in 1971 it was soon realised that the entrance doors were much to easy to open from the inside. There were apparently 3 or 4 fatalities during that year with passengers falling to their deaths. Mods were hastily made to vehicles still under construction, which included the handle/lock being enclosed in a shroud, but the situation was deemed so serious that by late 1971 BR decided to remove the inside handle completely and replace it with a cover plate. At the same time the droplights (which were apparently unopenable as built)were released and fitted with a spring mechanism to allow it to return to the closed position after the alighting passenger had opened the door from the outside handle.

Many thanks for this, really interesting stuff! I often wondered why BR didn't fit powered internal doors to its aircon fitted mk2 stock until they started building the mk2f's. Incidentally were there any other differences between the mk2d, e's and f's that you are aware of?

 

[snowball]

Incidentally were there any other differences between the mk2d, e's and f's that you are aware of?

I may have known of technical differences at one time but have forgotten now. What I can remember is that 2d and e originally had wood-effect interior walls and sober dark blue moquette seat covers, like the earlier variants of Mk 2, while 2f had a much brighter look with pale (cream, I think) walls and a seat covers of pale blue and fawn.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Yes it did. My wife and I have been travelling up the WCML to visit my in-laws for the last 25 years (give or take) and at the time it was rather unnerving to say the least.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Many thanks for this, really interesting stuff! I often wondered why BR didn't fit powered internal doors to its aircon fitted mk2 stock until they started building the mk2f's. Incidentally were there any other differences between the mk2d, e's and f's that you are aware of?

Just off the top of my head, aircon was modified and I think the toilet compartments on the e&fs were smaller than on mk2d stock, with the f there came the switch to the IC70 seating and wood paneling was swapped for plastic. Finally must mention the mk2d were also fitted with an early form of audio-navigation equipment that employed tapes of pre-recorded announcements reporting the trains progress, these could be overridden by the guard if required, the system also played music when the train was stationary, don't think this was perpetuated on the e&f versions, perhaps numerous other differences too.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Just off the top of my head, aircon was modified and I think the toilet compartments on the e&fs were smaller than on mk2d stock, with the f there came the switch to the IC70 seating and wood paneling was swapped for plastic. Finally must mention the mk2d were also fitted with an early form of audio-navigation equipment that employed tapes of pre-recorded announcements reporting the trains progress, these could be overridden by the guard if required, the system also played music when the train was stationary, don't think this was perpetuated on the e&f versions, perhaps numerous other differences too.

I may have known of technical differences at one time but have forgotten now. What I can remember is that 2d and e originally had wood-effect interior walls and sober dark blue moquette seat covers, like the earlier variants of Mk 2, while 2f had a much brighter look with pale (cream, I think) walls and a seat covers of pale blue and fawn.

Many thanks for this. I remember the wood effect interior walls which to be honest I quite liked at the time. I'm fascinated that the mk2d's played music when stationary and would love to know what BR were thinking! I know this is a lot to ask but what kind of music was played?

I know this is way off topic but ten years a go my wife and I took our children out to Vietnam for a 'cultural experience' at Christmas. After dawn SE Asia pop music was played throughout the sleeping compartments whilst attendants dished out breakfast in little plastic containers. Not joking!

 

[Ash Bridge]

Many thanks for this. I remember the wood effect interior walls which to be honest I quite liked at the time. I'm fascinated that the mk2d's played music when stationary and would love to know what BR were thinking! I know this is a lot to ask but what kind of music was played?

I know this is way off topic but ten years a go my wife and I took our children out to Vietnam for a 'cultural experience' at Christmas. After dawn SE Asia pop music was played throughout the sleeping compartments whilst attendants dished out breakfast in little plastic containers. Not joking!

During the autumn of 1972 (still have my tatty old notebook from the early 70s with trip/spotting observations btw) I was on York station when a Deltic hauled service formed of new mk2d stock arrived in platform 11? (The one closest to the NRM) from Kings X. It must have been a terminator as it stood for a good while after arrival with most of the coach doors left open. As they were still quite a novelty then, we walked over to have a closer look at coaches and as we passed an open door I heard music playing from within the vestibule (despite the loud drone from the twin Napiers up front!) you will probably think Iam seriously sad now, but I can still remember it was Burt Bacharachs "Do You Know The Way To San Jose" followed by "Trains & Boats & Planes" that was my only personal experience of the system, I traveled back from Newcastle to York a couple of years later on a 55 hauled 2d service and don't recall any automated announcements or background music being played on that journey.