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Platform Construction Costs

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jeemac

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I hope this isn't a stupid observation from a non-engineer, but the amounts quoted for the cost of building new platforms always seems very high. I've seen figures of £7-900k which seems a lot for what must be about the most simple piece of infrastructure.

Signalling and bridges I can understand don't come cheap, but once somebody has worked out clearances and surveyed the site, I can't see anything about actually building a platform that is particularly specialised, or involves much in the way of materials that aren't in everyday use in the construction industry.

If you can build a decent house for £1-200k, then why should the cost of a platform be so much. Or am I just missing something? :roll:
 
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Domh245

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I suppose that the cost for a platform would also include other work such as signal re-sighting with associated changes in blocks, as well as kitting it out with all the furniture such as PIDs, Shelters, Lights, Lifts, etc. Not to mention that in some cases, in order to build your new platform, you might have to take possesion of a line, which either means paying lots of contractors to get the work done as quickly as possible overnight, or paying one lump some to get an extended blockade.
 

carriageline

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Also, this is the railway. The place where being an approved supplier for network rail is a license to print a ton of money


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deltic08

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I hope this isn't a stupid observation from a non-engineer, but the amounts quoted for the cost of building new platforms always seems very high. I've seen figures of £7-900k which seems a lot for what must be about the most simple piece of infrastructure.

Signalling and bridges I can understand don't come cheap, but once somebody has worked out clearances and surveyed the site, I can't see anything about actually building a platform that is particularly specialised, or involves much in the way of materials that aren't in everyday use in the construction industry.

If you can build a decent house for £1-200k, then why should the cost of a platform be so much. Or am I just missing something? :roll:

I have asked myself that question for years and especially after visiting Conon Bridge opened in Feb 2013. This station is less than the length of one coach at 48 feet but cost £600K. Anybody could build a platform this length at much less if it wasn't near a railway. It has to be something to do with Network Rail. £120K was wasted on consultant fees to determine where to site it. Surprise, surprise it was sited on the original site as NR still owned the land and the access road was still extant. Can you believe it?
 

snowball

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I would imagine the unit cost of platforms on Metrolink Phase 3 is low as all except the airport stop are made from standardised precast components.
 

BestWestern

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carriageline:1889743 said:
Also, this is the railway. The place where being an approved supplier for network rail is a license to print a ton of money

Precisely. This is why the railway costs what it does to operate; because nothing is ever done in an efficient or cost effective way, instead everything costs several times more than it needs to. The solution apparently is to out as many staff out of work as possible whilst completely sidestepping the issue.
 

Aictos

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Precisely. This is why the railway costs what it does to operate; because nothing is ever done in an efficient or cost effective way, instead everything costs several times more than it needs to. The solution apparently is to out as many staff out of work as possible whilst completely sidestepping the issue.

One TOC was going to roll out wifi to 16 of it's stations until it realised the cost and as a result it's been reduced to half of the original stations however the ones that have been left are still getting it.

One station has a car park issue in that it's oversubscribed and there's a easy solution as there's a field across the existing car park that NR could use to build a second car park but it never been done as it be too expensive for them to do.
 

Bald Rick

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If you ask a local builder to build a house working only for 4 hours overnight and on Sundays, the cost might be different.
 

DarloRich

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Whilst I am sure many of you know bestsyou are not comparing like for like.

As Bald Rick says try asking your builder to work in a very short slot and stupid o clock on a Sunday morning, then see that slot cancelled a couple of times, after you have mobilised all your staff, then try to rearrange the work and re book all the machines.

Once that is done then comply with all of the railway safety rules for planning and delivering your works safely, then make sure your builders have the correct PTS and safety gear ( you will need to provide more men to give you your look outs etc than if they were at home), then arrange your material deliveries which may have to come by train as the site cant be accessed by lorry (unlike your driveway) then make sure your tools are all appropriate to work under live OHLE ( pitch limited machines, insulated ladders etc) or run up the costs of an isolation, hire in your RRV and operators, then you will need to provide illumination, messing facilities etc, then you have to re plan your work site at the last minute because the next site along needs another ballast train at the last moment which means you cant, quite finish all the work so you need another possession and so on.

That’s is before you factor in weather, machine failure, cable strikes, train delays 200 miles away etc etc etc

Yes it is expensive but it is a very different environment to domestic construction. It is still too expensive and that needs to be brought down but the safe environment, rightly, demanded on the railway costs money. So do the short time windows the TOCS will agree to.
 

BestWestern

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That is a very fair point. However, the creeping cancer of astronomical expenditure is present throughout the railway, not just in terms of the requirements for engineering work. In almost all aspects, be it supplies of kit or equipment, office and technical services, maintenance of rolling stock and so on, everything costs far more than it should. Where construction is concerned, I remain unconvinced that it is cheaper to use a growing plethora of rail contractors - you see new unheard of names plastered on vans and on workmen's hi viz garb on a regular basis - than it would be for the railway to employ a well utilised workforce of it's own. One or two major contractors then perhaps, but the cost of numerous small outfits all with their own costs and overheads, with more emerging all the time....as I say, I'm unconvinced. I once sold a car to bloke who worked for one particular contractor, and he mentioned a station refurb job going on at the time. His firm was merely a 'middle man', winning the contract before immediately delegating the work out to somebody else, no 'boots on the ground' at all and just a nice slice of profit for themselves for doing precious little. I realise this is far from uncommon of course, but in an environment where so much money is being handed over, are we really saving anything by lining the pockets of numerous firms to get a single job done? I do wonder.
 
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starrymarkb

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Would be interested to see how stations on new build lines compare to building on an active line
 

Bald Rick

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That is a very fair point. However, the creeping cancer of astronomical expenditure is present throughout the railway, not just in terms of the requirements for engineering work. In almost all aspects, be it supplies of kit or equipment, office and technical services, maintenance of rolling stock and so on, everything costs far more than it should.

Do you work in railway procurement? Please be assured that those who do go through very stringent processes to get the very best deal for the industry.

That's not to say there isn't room for improvement - there is - but the deals achieved for most goods and services are fantastic.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Would be interested to see how stations on new build lines compare to building on an active line

As a kick off, Mitcham Eastfields was as-near-as-makes-no-difference £8m for a 2x8 car platform station with lifts (2007). And that was done in a real hurry, being the first new station to deploy the new modular construction.
 

Taunton

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One or two major contractors then perhaps, but the cost of numerous small outfits all with their own costs and overheads, with more emerging all the time....as I say, I'm unconvinced. I once sold a car to bloke who worked for one particular contractor, and he mentioned a station refurb job going on at the time. His firm was merely a 'middle man', winning the contract before immediately delegating the work out to somebody else, no 'boots on the ground' at all and just a nice slice of profit for themselves for doing precious little. I realise this is far from uncommon of course.
It is instructive to read the recent RAIB report into the Glasgow Queen Street plant runaway, where the work (quite straightforward) had been given to a contractor, who in turn subcontracted it to another company, who then sub-subcontracted it ......... in the end there seem to have been 8 organisations involved for an operation that once would have been done just by the railway with their own labour and plant.

Paras 16-22 of the main report here

https://aib-cms.co.uk/sites/raib/publications/investigation_reports/reports_2014/report152014.cfm

You'll have to read the accident report to see if you feel that this led in the end to the actual work being done by those who were fully competent with the task in hand.
 

Ploughman

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Whilst I am sure many of you know bestsyou are not comparing like for like.

As Bald Rick says try asking your builder to work in a very short slot and stupid o clock on a Sunday morning, then see that slot cancelled a couple of times, after you have mobilised all your staff, then try to rearrange the work and re book all the machines.

Once that is done then comply with all of the railway safety rules for planning and delivering your works safely, then make sure your builders have the correct PTS and safety gear ( you will need to provide more men to give you your look outs etc than if they were at home), then arrange your material deliveries which may have to come by train as the site cant be accessed by lorry (unlike your driveway) then make sure your tools are all appropriate to work under live OHLE ( pitch limited machines, insulated ladders etc) or run up the costs of an isolation, hire in your RRV and operators, then you will need to provide illumination, messing facilities etc, then you have to re plan your work site at the last minute because the next site along needs another ballast train at the last moment which means you cant, quite finish all the work so you need another possession and so on.

That’s is before you factor in weather, machine failure, cable strikes, train delays 200 miles away etc etc etc

Yes it is expensive but it is a very different environment to domestic construction. It is still too expensive and that needs to be brought down but the safe environment, rightly, demanded on the railway costs money. So do the short time windows the TOCS will agree to.

One other factor to bear in mind.
You will need to book your possessions and trains over a year ahead.
 
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I hope this isn't a stupid observation from a non-engineer, but the amounts quoted for the cost of building new platforms always seems very high. I've seen figures of £7-900k which seems a lot for what must be about the most simple piece of infrastructure.

Signalling and bridges I can understand don't come cheap, but once somebody has worked out clearances and surveyed the site, I can't see anything about actually building a platform that is particularly specialised, or involves much in the way of materials that aren't in everyday use in the construction industry.

If you can build a decent house for £1-200k, then why should the cost of a platform be so much. Or am I just missing something? :roll:

As others have said NR costs are high, alot of money is wasted on consultancy fees to determine what we already know, ie a survey to determine whether Soham needs a station, money on where to put it etc, after a ton of money is spent on all that we get the answer everyone knew before

Problem is there is so many stakeholders, NR operate as business so will put a mark up on the work, they need to pay for the contractor who needs to pay for materials and staff plus make profit, access roads need putting in place plus any tarmac for a car park etc probably done by the same contractor,

Stagecoach won't miss the trick of asking for money to run a town hopper to the station which could mean routes changing, this would mean more red tape consultancy fees needed

Also the engineers report will completing as there can't be a gap between platform edge and the train either from day one or in a few years if the land sinks

New signalling will also be required

At the end of the day it isn't about a builder with a few bricks and paving slabs bought for a grand at Wickes

But I do agree though it can be done cheaper than NR say it can be done, as said in other threads if a heritage line can do such work cheaper NR can
 

edwin_m

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Heritage lines normally have the benefit of a couple of months every year when not much is running, and often also a volunteer worforce too.

The price for Fishguard and Goodwick station has been quoted as around £0.5m. Interested to hear if anyone has any information on how they did it so cheaply - though perhaps having just two trains a day at the time had something to do with it.
 
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Do you work in railway procurement? Please be assured that those who do go through very stringent processes to get the very best deal for the industry.

That's not to say there isn't room for improvement - there is - but the deals achieved for most goods and services are fantastic.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


As a kick off, Mitcham Eastfields was as-near-as-makes-no-difference £8m for a 2x8 car platform station with lifts (2007). And that was done in a real hurry, being the first new station to deploy the new modular construction.

Yes that's all well and good NR getting a good deal, but at the end of the day NR has to be run as a business therefore they will always put a mark up on all jobs whether those who work in procurement beat the price down or not, its no different to Morissons pricing up a loaf of bread, at the end of the day even though NR is government owned NR won't fulfill such projects at cost which hampers the industry

Also worth noting though is NR won't have any say in some parts of the project so you can't blame them for all the costs incurred, such as access roads and bus services etc, this will be managed by the council nothing to do with NR
 

Bald Rick

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Yes that's all well and good NR getting a good deal, but at the end of the day NR has to be run as a business therefore they will always put a mark up on all jobs whether those who work in procurement beat the price down or not, its no different to Morissons pricing up a loaf of bread, at the end of the day even though NR is government owned NR won't fulfill such projects at cost which hampers the industry

Also worth noting though is NR won't have any say in some parts of the project so you can't blame them for all the costs incurred, such as access roads and bus services etc, this will be managed by the council nothing to do with NR

Without going into the nitty gritty, NR is not allowed to put a 'mark up' on enhancement projects such as new platforms / stations. It is also the case that any third party wanting to enhance the network can do the work themselves - or get a suitably competent contractor to do so in open competition. The fact that most choose NR to do the work suggests that it provides the best value for money.
 

Ploughman

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The recently completed works at Whitby station to provide a second pltform and independant run round facility could fall into the category of being a new platform provided for NWR.
http://www.nymr.co.uk/2013/02/funding-agreed-for-second-platform-at-whitby-station/
http://www.nymr.co.uk/2014/08/civil-engineering-diary-part-12/
http://www.nymr.co.uk/2014/08/civil-engineering-diary-part-11/

This project has been carried out with a mix of Contract and a very small amount of volunteer input, this mainly on the project management side of things.
I do not know if the total costs have changed from those forecast in the original news release of 1.4m

Separately the resignalling at Grosmont has been heavily worked on by Volunteers with some contract input in areas where there is a NWR involvement.
 

BestWestern

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Bald Rick:1890112 said:
Do you work in railway procurement? Please be assured that those who do go through very stringent processes to get the very best deal for the industry.

That's not to say there isn't room for improvement - there is - but the deals achieved for most goods and services are fantastic.

Really?! Are you sure? How much do you think the component parts of an aged, battered Avantix ticket machine would be worth on the open market? And how much do you think every TOC in the land is paying to lease them? And then paying again every single time they need to send the equipment back to the firm they already pay a fortune to lease it from because it is knackered? And then paying the same firm again for replacement parts? What about logging a fault on a station, getting a contractor out to change a bulb in a lampost? Or obtaining parts for rolling stock through the required 'approved' supplier network? Be assured there is precious little value for money being obtained in most of these areas. I'm not suggesting that TOCs don't want to save money, of course they do, but in many cases they are simply hamstrung by the red tape of process and procedure. It is here that major savings could and should be made.
 
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jeemac

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As others have said NR costs are high, alot of money is wasted on consultancy fees to determine what we already know, ie a survey to determine whether Soham needs a station, money on where to put it etc, after a ton of money is spent on all that we get the answer everyone knew before

Problem is there is so many stakeholders, NR operate as business so will put a mark up on the work, they need to pay for the contractor who needs to pay for materials and staff plus make profit, access roads need putting in place plus any tarmac for a car park etc probably done by the same contractor,

Also the engineers report will completing as there can't be a gap between platform edge and the train either from day one or in a few years if the land sinks

New signalling will also be required

But I do agree though it can be done cheaper than NR say it can be done, as said in other threads if a heritage line can do such work cheaper NR can

Thanks all for the interesting contributions to my original post. I agree with a lot of them and see where many of the costs not immediately obvious to everyday passengers might be hidden. That trade-off between doing things properly and the sort of management processes - especially the safety culture, which is rightly in place now - and the cost of doing anything is always going to be a challenge to people developing the railway.

When I wrote my original post, I wasn't actually thinking so much about works next to busy main lines, but more about relatively small-scale, marginal projects designed to encourage rail usage - such as the new Conon Bridge station, the NYMR re-instated platform at Whitby mentioned above, and the suggested reinstatement of a loop and second platform at Newtonmore (presumably they could build the platform before laying the new loop! :lol:) - and it just struck me as an interested observer that the figures for building platforms always seemed disproportionately expensive, compared to items I'd expect to be big-ticket, like signalling.
 

carriageline

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Without going into the nitty gritty, NR is not allowed to put a 'mark up' on enhancement projects such as new platforms / stations. It is also the case that any third party wanting to enhance the network can do the work themselves - or get a suitably competent contractor to do so in open competition. The fact that most choose NR to do the work suggests that it provides the best value for money.


On the subject of mark ups, I was reading something on connect the other day, it seems NDS make a profit on their services, even delivering materials to NR worksites. I can sort of see why, but even then...

We also had a bulb blow in the box, no spares in the box. A contractor was hired from 6 hours away to come out, fit the bulb and go home.

Our computer mouse broke, an engineer from BT it services came out with a new one, and fitted it for us. I ended up seeing the invoice for that, and it was disgusting.

Then I have heard rumours of how much the workstation tracker balls cost to replace. Whilst it's obviously a bespoke signalling part, I can't believe network rail pay that for something that would cost under £50 in parts. I understand about type approvals and the like, but still.

I also believe tool and plant hire also take us for a jolly ride




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northwichcat

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In some cases Network Rail may have to purchase land and apply for planning permission to develop that land, while in other cases it could require a bridge being widened.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Heritage lines normally have the benefit of a couple of months every year when not much is running, and often also a volunteer worforce too.

The price for Fishguard and Goodwick station has been quoted as around £0.5m. Interested to hear if anyone has any information on how they did it so cheaply - though perhaps having just two trains a day at the time had something to do with it.

Mostly, I imagine, because it was an (admittedly thorough) refurbishment of an existing disused platform. Though yes, the fact that there was very little passing traffic would mean possessions would presumably not require compensation for the TOC.
 

jon0844

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Also, this is the railway. The place where being an approved supplier for network rail is a license to print a ton of money

I did have to wonder how a footbridge in Cheshunt cost over £2m. Steps and a ramp (no lifts, not even any lighting or CCTV).

Foundations that look like they'd support The Shard probably cost a bit, and it also took many months to finish - even though I'd expect a fair bit of the work could be done without impacting the railway alongside (just when the top section was put in).

And the funniest (!) thing was that even after it opened, it had gaps that were big enough that a small dog could probably fit through (I say this as it's by Lea Valley Park and is used by an incredibly large number of dog walkers). So for quite some time after it was in use, it had bits of wood tied up to close the gaps until someone came and welded new sections on.

£2m for a footbridge suddenly makes platform work seem like a bargain!

(To be fair, it's a nice bridge ;) )

That is a very fair point. However, the creeping cancer of astronomical expenditure is present throughout the railway, not just in terms of the requirements for engineering work. In almost all aspects, be it supplies of kit or equipment, office and technical services, maintenance of rolling stock and so on, everything costs far more than it should. Where construction is concerned, I remain unconvinced that it is cheaper to use a growing plethora of rail contractors - you see new unheard of names plastered on vans and on workmen's hi viz garb on a regular basis - than it would be for the railway to employ a well utilised workforce of it's own. One or two major contractors then perhaps, but the cost of numerous small outfits all with their own costs and overheads, with more emerging all the time....as I say, I'm unconvinced. I once sold a car to bloke who worked for one particular contractor, and he mentioned a station refurb job going on at the time. His firm was merely a 'middle man', winning the contract before immediately delegating the work out to somebody else, no 'boots on the ground' at all and just a nice slice of profit for themselves for doing precious little. I realise this is far from uncommon of course, but in an environment where so much money is being handed over, are we really saving anything by lining the pockets of numerous firms to get a single job done? I do wonder.

Well said.

It's hardy unique to the railway either. Look at the councils outsourcing work to large organisations and seemingly oblivious to the fact that these firms bid low to win work, knowing they can get the real profit through the extra work they're allowed (example; they win a servicing contact for gas heating, but can claim for boiler upgrades and repairs - and then miraculously find almost every council house needs work doing), and will outsource the work themselves too.

When things go wrong it gets really hard to then place the blame too. While you'd imagine the council would be responsible and take the blame automatically, it rarely happens and you just get loads of expensive buck passing.

It's just as lucrative to be involved in doing work for local authorities and acting as middle men that just take a cut. The council still likes it because when they awarded a 10 or 15 year contract, they could show a cost saving (and not worry too much about what happens later on when they've retired or joined the board of the company!).

I do accept that working on any live railways will mean higher costs, but we're talking about costs that are so much higher that you do begin to wonder how it's allowed or considered acceptable (acceptable as in a blind eye being turned).

Really?! Are you sure? How much do you think the component parts of an aged, battered Avantix ticket machine would be worth on the open market? And how much do you think every TOC in the land is paying to lease them? And then paying again every single time they need to send the equipment back to the firm they already pay a fortune to lease it from because it is knackered? And then paying the same firm again for replacement parts? What about logging a fault on a station, getting a contractor out to change a bulb in a lampost? Or obtaining parts for rolling stock through the required 'approved' supplier network? Be assured there is precious little value for money being obtained in most of the areas. I'm not suggesting that TOCs don't want to save money, of course they do, but in many cases they are simply hamstrung by the red tape of process and procedure. It is here that major savings could and should be made.

Last Sunday, I was at Hatfield station to pick up my parents coming back from Scotland with heavy bags. Even with the lifts, they'd maybe appreciate some help.

I got there and found one of the lifts was out. I then spoke to the lady on duty (everything else was closed) who said it wasn't the first time, but it was a bad day due to the Lollibops festival at Hatfield House. Suffice to say, just about everyone going to/from there had a buggy or two.

Someone had been sent out to fix it, but didn't have the relevant authority to work on some of the equipment so someone else had to be sent out - which wouldn't be until the Monday.

Now I bet there was still a cost for the initial visit. Maybe the assumption you could 'switch it off and on' (so to speak) but still worthy of the relevant call out fee that someone has to pay for.

And I was also told there have been many failures of the lifts, even though they only got turned on in July (and not through vandalism). I don't know how much they cost, but why are brand new lifts failing exactly?

Then you get people coming out to fix ticket machines, but can only work on that machine or manufacturer, so ignore the broken one next to it.

The whole setup can really be a total nightmare, and must contribute to the excessive cost of the railway. But we do of course prefer to blame the fat cats at the private train companies for creaming off all the profits...

I also believe tool and plant hire also take us for a jolly ride

The system encourages it though. Once you have people thinking that 'it's not my money' then you can do what you like.

You turn up to hire something, get charged a ridiculous fee and have two choices; a) Say 'you're having a laugh mate' or b) yeah, sure, whatever, not my money.

Option b obviously means you've probably now made a good friend at that place. Will probably help you out next time you're in need too, so all good.

And if someone is over your shoulder looking at the cost, there are always way to manipulate the figures if necessary. Maybe lower the hire costs, but introduce some other 'miscellaneous' fees here and there.
 
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Clip

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The problem you have with NR being the sole contractor for such infrastructure work as new stations and platforms is that these are not built every day/month so you end up having highly skilled construction workers who may be only working for ,say, 6 months of the year - where else will they work for the rest of it?

And then that also leads to other costs because where do you base them? If you start sending them round the country you will then need to pay for board and lodgings and then also payments due to being away from home for periods of time and that all then adds up to what youre probably paying now for an external contractor to source workers within a decent locality who can do the work on a set contract and then go off to anything else they desire.

I agree theres lots of wastage with the other issues best western brought up but where construction is concerned its a very different kettle of fish.
 

Grumpy

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What a load of tosh.
Most new stations will need a car park and approach which can all be put in place during normal working hours before any work is needed near to the running lines. You then use this for road access to bring materials to site and storage. Final surfacing can take place later.
Platforms should be modular units built off site and delivered during the normal week. Then one Sunday bring in a JCB , level where the platforms are to go, and crane in the modular units and footbridge/ramp.
Installation of platform furniture can take place later during normal working hours
 

jon0844

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The work at Hatfield station right now, bar the new footbridge, seems to be going on without much disruption to the railway.

I don't know the total cost, but cost aside it all looks good. It's a shame extending platform 1 to take 12 car trains wasn't part of the work though. I do hope there's enough room between the track and the new car park for this to be a possibility in future years.
 

Tetchytyke

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The problem is Network Rail have an approved list of contractors and- as with any "approved panel" work- the price from those contractors sky-rockets. NR won't just get Bob the Builder in to do it, Bob the Builder has to be on the panel of contractors, and so there's no genuine open competition in the tendering process. That's why a basic platform at Chesterfield cost over a million quid to build, despite it basically beign pre-fab concrete and some steel fencing.

I appreciate the need for contractors to demonstrate they meet the required standards, but someone is clearly taking Network Rail for a ride here. I suspect it's Balfour Beatty.
 

21C101

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To think that BR reopened templecombe station for £9,000 in 1983 including lighting. Resurfacing, coping stones, fencing, car park and converting half of the signalbox into a ticket office.....
 
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