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Platform 15 and 16 project at Manchester Piccadilly.

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Altfish

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I


It certainly doesn't create a good impression being in one of those trains and hearing the conductor describing the situation as normal. The not knowing if you will or won't make a connection, and if your final arrival time will be 5 or 50 minutes late.

It's all very well having a theoretical capacity of x trains per hour but, as many are now saying, it's one thing to have a series of the same class of trains on the same route with the same stops. It's something else when you have several stations at which some trains all stop, others only stop at one, some trains are 2 carriages, others may be up to 8, different classes, with very long freight services trying to run through non-stop in between them.

Most of the trains aren't standard local loop suburban type services. They pick up delays from as far away as Edinburgh, Glasgow, Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Cleethorpes, Norwich, Liverpool and a whole lot more places I invite all to add in. The delays are diverse, many totally random, but some are quite predictable.

The more trains arriving into the Manchester area on time the better able Platforms 13 and 14 will be to maximise their capacity - obvious to us all, surely.

It's all those minutes here, there and everywhere that contribute to the state we're now in. It's the butterfly effect where one minor action creates a chain of ever increasing bigger actions.

One trivial example from my local station, but I'm willing to bet most readers will be able to think of one or two near them. The 7.14 TPE 185 to Manchester picks up about 100 in school term time. A recent victory, it usually now has 6 coaches, in two 3 car units, with first class in both, coaches lettered A-F. Many passengers have reservations. There'll be no prior announcement whether A will be at front (usually) or back.

Where do passengers wait? That's where a strategy is forming. It's only a 4 car platform so A-C will be in but all those wanting D-F will need to board through D. The huddle at one end of the platform may find they've got it wrong! Today F is at the front! Even if it's not A-C may have standees already so more go towards D. This is a 1 minute booked stop. That's only achieved on Fridays and 3 minutes is not unusual.

If we want to push more, and/or longer, trains through the network we need more micro mangement to look at little details all around the country. Tweeking of timetabling to have achievable times. Looking at more platform extentions. Through corridor connections on all new rolling stock to allow easy communication within trains. Smarter signalling. New passing loops where space is available (it wasn't just branch lines that the Beeching era axed).

The Northern Hub included a range of projects. Too many are stalled without realising the greater benefits for the north need them all in place. My little station is a single track, single platform bottleneck on the Sheffield-Manchester line thanks to a nonsensical decision in 1985 to remove 3 platforms and shorten the one that was left from 6 car to 4. The Hope Valley Capacity Scheme should have had that put right with trains due to run from December 2018. Despite the TWAO eventually getting the green light in February 2018 we still don't know when, or even if, work will start. Network Rail have said they hope in 2019, maybe trains running by December 2021, but it's gone exceedingly quiet! It's now looking as though that wasn't a green light at all, maybe not even a double amber!

The result is that the Hope Valley line will continue to contribute more delays across the country than it should. That's a small scheme. How many more little improvements across the nation are similarly being delayed?

Platforms 15 and 16 are the most obvious component part of this giant spiders web centred on Manchester. If not 15 and 16 a massive tunnelled solution needs to be found.

Happened to be by the Humber recently and came across the River Humber pipeline replacement project. It's a massive scheme including a large 5km tunnel to house a new pipeline below the Humber. We do do tunnelling in the north, quietly where few will notice. Under Manchester, and with a wider bore and overground access points may be rather more delicate - and expensive!

And there's the 23 mile tunnel being bored under the North York Moors for Sirius Minerals.

Is there the vision? Apparently there is if we can believe Jo Johnson, but in the meantime, and that probably means 10+ years, we're stuck with what we have now!
Excellent post, agree with 99% of it.
Regarding carriage position, they manage to do it on the continent, when waiting on the platform you will be able to get into the right position before the train arrives.
The problem with tunnelling in Manchester is the underground rivers, the Tibb in particular, it means that you have to go deep to avoid them, that makes any stations deeper and the start of the tunnel further back.
 
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dilbertphil

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Do we know where these short TPE services actually reverse?
I was caught up in a Newcastle train that I was catching from the Airport. We were told to catch a Scottish service to Piccadilly and catch the Newcastle train from there. When the Newcastle train arrived it had come from Ardwick or Longsight, it hadn't used the siding that ATW use.

If terminating at Piccadilly TPE will either use Mayfield, the U&D Goods or the the D Goods depending on where there is space, additionally but rarely they could go down to the run around near the longsight wheel lathe.
 

Mollman

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In regards to North TPE, If terminating at Picc due to late running they do seem to be sent via Guide Bridge as this is the quicker route.
 

Altfish

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In regards to North TPE, If terminating at Picc due to late running they do seem to be sent via Guide Bridge as this is the quicker route.
That may well happen sometimes, but it means that the return journey is also via Guide Bridge.
 

B&I

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If only they could afford them.
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/...opers-affordable-housing-manchester-sheffield

http://aboutmanchester.co.uk/manche...property-crisis-is-not-just-a-london-problem/


Yes you read that right, 93% foreign owned, ‘buy-to-leave’. Whilst I appreciate that will be the high end, the 'average' is going to be pretty high.


You see the mistake you made there ? You managed in a single post both to criticise current government policy, and suggest that Manchester is not the most economically dynamic city in the universe. Go and sit in a corner and think about what you've done
 

B&I

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What percentage of inner-city flats that seem attractive to the young professional classes in particular in the Manchester core which means no long distance commuting to their places of employment "lie empty for years"?

Rail is just one of the available modes of transport, not the "be-all" and "end-all".


How else do you propose transporting around all these legions who dwell, according to you, in the heart of a large and congested city ? Jetpack ?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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How else do you propose transporting around all these legions who dwell, according to you, in the heart of a large and congested city ? Jetpack ?

For "those legions who dwell in the heart of the large and congested city" to use your very own phrase, there are two Metrolink routes CC1 and CC2, three specific free Metroshuttle buses that cover that area well, buses from both Piccadilly Gardens and Shudehill bus stations, bicycles, taxis, walking,etc.
 
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Killingworth

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Excellent post, agree with 99% of it.
Regarding carriage position, they manage to do it on the continent, when waiting on the platform you will be able to get into the right position before the train arrives.
The problem with tunnelling in Manchester is the underground rivers, the Tibb in particular, it means that you have to go deep to avoid them, that makes any stations deeper and the start of the tunnel further back.

The rivers are a difficulty of course, but so are the Thames and all its tributaries, plus the sewers and many other underground lines beneath London and they manage to thread through new lines. It may be that the tunnels have to start quite a long way out.

I'm no civil engineer or architect but I'd suspect in Manchester there will be more difficulty with deep foundations of all the high rise blocks springing up around the centre, but it should be possible to avoid them.

Note I say "there will". If we are to move forward, rather than sinking back into our past, we have to make better use of the ground under our feet. We can't get maximum benefit out of HS2 to the city centre without doing so. The same goes for any HS3 to Yorkshire etc.

Sheffield has decided it wants HS2 into the centre. Mmm. It will be on existing slow tracks, with all the issues we're describing here, and the main line will speed past into Leeds - where there's another conundrum for another thread, especially if it's supposed to be heading further north and meeting a new HS3!

Recently I was speaking to a Chinese tourist with a group who'd been to Chatsworth House. They'd travelled along the Hope Valley line from the Manchester direction and were marvelling at our railways. Her English was quite good. She noted how little industry they'd seen, and no crops. So far so good, all very quaint and picturesque, but then in went the innocent stiletto. Your trains are so slow. In China we've got trains that will go 300 kph or more. Then the Pacer trundled up................. As we parted I meekly pointed out that we'd joined railways from London to Edinburgh by 1849 and most of our infrastructure is well over 100 years old on a crowded island, but somehow I couldn't help feeling we should be doing better!
 

Bletchleyite

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Recently I was speaking to a Chinese tourist with a group who'd been to Chatsworth House. They'd travelled along the Hope Valley line from the Manchester direction and were marvelling at our railways. Her English was quite good. She noted how little industry they'd seen, and no crops. So far so good, all very quaint and picturesque, but then in went the innocent stiletto. Your trains are so slow. In China we've got trains that will go 300 kph or more. Then the Pacer trundled up................. As we parted I meekly pointed out that we'd joined railways from London to Edinburgh by 1849 and most of our infrastructure is well over 100 years old on a crowded island, but somehow I couldn't help feeling we should be doing better!

China and the UK are two very different places - for rail to be viable (other than Sleepers) in such a huge country as China it needs to be high speed, otherwise the Boeing 777s[1] might as well get wheeled out. China also seems to have most of its population crammed into a relatively small number of very large cities. The UK is very different, with a quite spread-out population across a large number of small towns and cities plus a few big (not by Chinese standards) ones. China is a country that needs high speed - the UK is a country that, while there are a few longer journeys for which high speed is useful (that'd be those lines presently getting 125mph services), by and large needs lower-speed regular interval connectional regional express type services instead - which is what, by and large, it has.

[1] Yes, even with HSR there are plenty of widebodies of various types on domestic Chinese flights.
 

markem41

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Recently I was speaking to a Chinese tourist with a group who'd been to Chatsworth House. They'd travelled along the Hope Valley line from the Manchester direction and were marvelling at our railways. Her English was quite good. She noted how little industry they'd seen, and no crops. So far so good, all very quaint and picturesque, but then in went the innocent stiletto. Your trains are so slow. In China we've got trains that will go 300 kph or more. Then the Pacer trundled up................. As we parted I meekly pointed out that we'd joined railways from London to Edinburgh by 1849 and most of our infrastructure is well over 100 years old on a crowded island, but somehow I couldn't help feeling we should be doing better!

The UK decided some time ago that arriving in another country and stripping their natural resources to generate money to build things back home somehow wasn't quite fair. China on the other hand...
 

Killingworth

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The UK decided some time ago that arriving in another country and stripping their natural resources to generate money to build things back home somehow wasn't quite fair. China on the other hand...

China and the UK are two very different places - for rail to be viable (other than Sleepers) in such a huge country as China it needs to be high speed, otherwise the Boeing 777s[1] might as well get wheeled out. China also seems to have most of its population crammed into a relatively small number of very large cities. The UK is very different, with a quite spread-out population across a large number of small towns and cities plus a few big (not by Chinese standards) ones. China is a country that needs high speed - the UK is a country that, while there are a few longer journeys for which high speed is useful (that'd be those lines presently getting 125mph services), by and large needs lower-speed regular interval connectional regional express type services instead - which is what, by and large, it has.

[1] Yes, even with HSR there are plenty of widebodies of various types on domestic Chinese flights.

Having gone half that way with HS1 we seem to be going a little further with HS2, and we may even manage a HS3 in the lifetime of younger readers. But you're right, we don't have space or need for such very high speed services as they have in China.

We do need to sort out the more mundane matters I mentioned in Post 780. Those Pacers are better than nothing, but where else do we find such basic trains running so many important services?
 

Bletchleyite

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We do need to sort out the more mundane matters I mentioned in Post 780. Those Pacers are better than nothing, but where else do we find such basic trains running so many important services?

Plenty of countries use bog-standard 2-car DMUs of various types for local stopping services, which is what the one under discussion is. OK, probably not bus bodies on flat wagons, but some of them can be quite basic, often little better than a Class 150.
 

markem41

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<Stupid> Could freight trains reverse out of Trafford Park terminal to head west? </Stupid>
 

B&I

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For "those legions who dwell in the heart of the large and congested city" to use your very own phrase, there are two Metrolink routes CC1 and CC2, three specific free Metroshuttle buses that cover that area well, buses from both Piccadilly Gardens and Shudehill bus stations, bicycles, taxis, walking,etc.


And how many people can those shift per hour, in comparison to heavy rail ?

I assume you don't expect walking to provide a viable alternative to rail over anything but very short journeys, although one thing this forum has taught me is to never assume anything about anyone's posts.
 
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Bletchleyite

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I assume you don't expect walkig to provide a viable alternative to rail over anything but very short journeys

For able-bodied people walking from Picc to Vic or vice versa is entirely viable and a valid option. The Ordsall Chord isn't relevant to any other journey.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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And how many people can those shift per hour, in comparison to heavy rail ? I assume you don't expect walkig to provide a viable alternative to rail over anything but very short journeys, although one thing this forum has taught me is to never assume anything about anyone's posts.

Please do not try my patience by attempting to confuse matters. It was you who brought up the matter of those central Manchester core flat dwellers and my original reply was based on that very same premise in that the young professional classes who so reside in these flats do not need to commute by rail into the central Manchester core, as they are already there.

In response to your still confused second follow-up posting, I then notified you of what currently exists to transport people in the central Manchester core, such as the Metrolink system (both CC1 and CC2). three free of charge Metroshuttle bus services with a ten minute frequency, buses from both Manchester Piccadilly and Shudehill bus stations, to name but some.

In comparison to the abovementioned transport modes of travel in the same inner city core area, I very much doubt that those making heavy rail journeys between Manchester Victoria, Deansgate, Manchester Oxford Road and Manchester Piccadilly railway stations making similar very short inner city core journeys are far less in number. It would seem that you have no idea of the actual numbers carried by the Manchester Metrolink system on a daily basis in the central Manchester core area.
 

Altfish

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For able-bodied people walking from Picc to Vic or vice versa is entirely viable and a valid option. The Ordsall Chord isn't relevant to any other journey.
The Ordsall Chord is of great benefit for anyone wanting to go from North Manchester and great swathes of Lancashire and West Yorkshire to Manchester Airport.
It was never built to get from Piccadilly to Victoria(although that is a by product) you can use the tram for that.
 

Killingworth

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For able-bodied people walking from Picc to Vic or vice versa is entirely viable and a valid option. The Ordsall Chord isn't relevant to any other journey.

Free Metroshuttle bus is very busy between the two. I'd prefer to walk as it's as quick!
 

Killingworth

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The problem with tunnelling in Manchester is the underground rivers, the Tibb in particular, it means that you have to go deep to avoid them, that makes any stations deeper and the start of the tunnel further back.

An underground link between Piccadilly and Victoria was surveyed about 1977, see the Hidden Manchester Map.

Foresighted then, and 40 years later needed more than ever. Money short then, money short now.
 

Bletchleyite

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It would be nice, but I don't think it's the highest priority Manchester area rail project. The 15/16 and Oxford Road work is needed far more urgently, and there's still scope for more capacity on Metrolink by running all services as double sets (or just ordering some 4-car sets).
 

Killingworth

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It would be nice, but I don't think it's the highest priority Manchester area rail project. The 15/16 and Oxford Road work is needed far more urgently, and there's still scope for more capacity on Metrolink by running all services as double sets (or just ordering some 4-car sets).

And by dividing attention nothing gets done, there, I said it!
 

hawk1911

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Once the new timetables are fully implemented, the Ordsall Chord will be of benefit to people like me who currently have to change at Piccadilly and Victoria. And what happens with advance tickets (split at Manchester) if the bus or tram is late and I miss my connection.

Soon it will be one change at Piccadilly and a significant saving in journey time.
 

Altfish

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They did...unfortunately it was the wrong plan which has caused nothing but trouble just to get a few people to their annual week in the sun a bit quicker.
Totally disagree, it is one third of the overall plan. Piccadilly 15/16 and Oxford Road remodelling being the other two. It has caused an odd problem but "nothing but trouble" is talking rubbish.
Build the other two and we have a functioning system. At least Piccadilly throat's problems have been massively reduced; no more waiting at Ardwick for 5-minutes whilst a Pendolino, a Voyager and a Pacer clear before the TPE train can get to platform 13/14.
 

B&I

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Please do not try my patience by attempting to confuse matters. It was you who brought up the matter of those central Manchester core flat dwellers and my original reply was based on that very same premise in that the young professional classes who so reside in these flats do not need to commute by rail into the central Manchester core, as they are already there.

In response to your still confused second follow-up posting, I then notified you of what currently exists to transport people in the central Manchester core, such as the Metrolink system (both CC1 and CC2). three free of charge Metroshuttle bus services with a ten minute frequency, buses from both Manchester Piccadilly and Shudehill bus stations, to name but some.

In comparison to the abovementioned transport modes of travel in the same inner city core area, I very much doubt that those making heavy rail journeys between Manchester Victoria, Deansgate, Manchester Oxford Road and Manchester Piccadilly railway stations making similar very short inner city core journeys are far less in number. It would seem that you have no idea of the actual numbers carried by the Manchester Metrolink system on a daily basis in the central Manchester core area.


Sorry, I didn't realise we were discussing matters on the basis that these flat dwellers apparenrly never leave Manchester City Centre. Now I realise that unarguable premise, well, let's pull down the entire central Manchester railway network so there's more space for speculative flats.

For better or worse, most long-distamce trains in the north of England run through central Manchester. There are therefore a lot more people affected by Manchester's railway-defying planning policies than the fairly small number of people living in central Manchester flats. Unfortunately, Manchester's rulers, while demanding that vast sums be spent to get people to and from their shiny metropolis, don't seem very worried about the people who have to travel through it.
 

Chester1

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Totally disagree, it is one third of the overall plan. Piccadilly 15/16 and Oxford Road remodelling being the other two. It has caused an odd problem but "nothing but trouble" is talking rubbish.
Build the other two and we have a functioning system. At least Piccadilly throat's problems have been massively reduced; no more waiting at Ardwick for 5-minutes whilst a Pendolino, a Voyager and a Pacer clear before the TPE train can get to platform 13/14.

Yes, all the moaning about the Ordsall Chord being a failure does forget the extra capacity and reduced conflicts for platforms 1-12. The chord has been blamed for problems that are partly occuring due to increasing the frequency of service on the Castlefield corridor from 8/10tph to 12/15tph.

The latter was achieved by sending Liverpool trains via Vic, no?

That removed one of four crossing movements (Liverpool - Scarborough). Airport-Newcastle/York and Airport-Middlesbrough conflicting moves have been resolved by the chord, leaving only Airport-Cleethorpes services crossing the station throat.
 
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