Platform 15 and 16 project at Manchester Piccadilly.

[edwin_m]

I am talking of comparative timescales. What is the earliest year that any HS2/NPR involvement could be associated with the platforms 15/16 subject of the thread?

We don't know the timescales for NPR but I agree it is unlikely to be before the 2030s.

However, even if P15/16 was approved and funded tomorrow it would be the best part of five years before it was completed, and if NPR removes the need then P15/16 would have to justify itself on perhaps only 10 years of use. This does of course change if it continues to be useful after the fast Leeds/Liverpool/Airport trains move onto NPR (always assuming NPR happens at all).

 

[snowball]

However, even if P15/16 was approved and funded tomorrow it would be the best part of five years before it was completed

Is that estimate based on specific information about the scheme?

For the Ordsall Chord it was less than 2 years 9 months from approval of the order to fare-paying use, despite the fact that Mark Whitby's legal challenges continued through the first year of that period. I believe alterations to listed structures were postponed until after the final dismissal of his case. The Oxford Road / Piccadilly scheme is much less contentious and (as far as I know) unlikely to be the subject of any such challenge.

 

[edwin_m]

Is that estimate based on specific information about the scheme?

For the Ordsall Chord it was less than 2 years 9 months from approval of the order to fare-paying use, despite the fact that Mark Whitby's legal challenges continued through the first year of that period. I believe alterations to listed structures were postponed until after the final dismissal of his case. The Oxford Road / Piccadilly scheme is much less contentious and (as far as I know) unlikely to be the subject of any such challenge.

It might be three years rather than, as I quoted, "the best part of five". But my point stands about the limited amount of time to recover the benefits of the scheme unless it is also useful after NPR. Really the NPR strategy needs to be defined and agreed at all levels of government before decisions can be made on sub-regional schemes.

 

[HSTEd]

Well even if NPR removes the regional express traffic, you could have a high intensity Salford to Manchester Airport metro service that would ensure a lot of traffic through the Castlefield Corridor in either case.

 

[edwin_m]

Perhaps so, but a change to the assumed service pattern part way through the business case evaluation period also changes the business case.

 

[LOL The Irony]

The HS2 line would also need to be able to access P13-16 and go on to Ordsall/Liverpool.

They're going from Interchange, not Piccadilly.

 

[LM93]

So I take it we're not getting any news before the recess then?

 

[jonesy3001]

think its going to be the end of the year, that's if platforms 15 and 16 are going to be part of the plans that transport for the north are putting to the government.

https://transportforthenorth.com/northern-powerhouse-rail/

 

[YorkshireBear]

Yep it appears that any announcement on infrastructure for the North has been bottled.

 

[CHAPS2034]

The Parliamentary Recess does not start until next week - the House rises on 24th.

So still time for Grayling to sneak out any bad news

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Yep it appears that any announcement on infrastructure for the North has been bottled.

When I saw this I double checked and ........

The Parliamentary Recess does not start until next week - the House rises on 24th.

So still time for Grayling to sneak out any bad news

This is what I saw and thought. I really am hoping there will not be any bad news.

 

[PR1Berske]

There surely would have been hints or clues or breadcrumbs by now.

P15/P16 would appear to be dead.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There surely would have been hints or clues or breadcrumbs by now.

P15/P16 would appear to be dead.

Still, best to wait for the official obituary to be published.

 

[158756]

Is there really any point now? What extra services would be made possible by 15/16? If it's just about reliability is it really worth spending such a large amount?

 

[a_c_skinner]

Is there really any point now?

Forgive me if I've missed this but what has changed since this seemed a really useful project? The only big rail development has been the Ordsall Cord which has the potential to push more through the through lines. I may be being obtuse, but it isn't deliberate.

 

[158756]

Forgive me if I've missed this but what has changed since this seemed a really useful project? The only big rail development has been the Ordsall Cord which has the potential to push more through the through lines. I may be being obtuse, but it isn't deliberate.

I don't think so much has changed in terms of the benefits, but when it was announced it was just one part of a bigger project. Now it's a standalone scheme after the Ordsall Chord has been built and most changes associated with the Northern Hub have already happened or are waiting for the rolling stock/electrification situation to improve.

 

[Senex]

I don't think so much has changed in terms of the benefits, but when it was announced it was just one part of a bigger project. Now it's a standalone scheme after the Ordsall Chord has been built and most changes associated with the Northern Hub have already happened or are waiting for the rolling stock/electrification situation to improve.

Now a standalone scheme maybe, but an essential part of making sure the Ordsall Chord can actually function smoothly and not just help produce ongoing massive delays.

 

[swt_passenger]

Additional platforms to improve reliability seems OK down south, such as at er... Derby.

 

[snowball]

Forgive me if I've missed this but what has changed since this seemed a really useful project?

What's changed is that it landed on Grayling's desk.

 

[snowball]

Additional platforms to improve reliability seems OK down south, such as at er... Derby.

Not a very close comparison as Derby isn't on viaduct.

 

[WatcherZero]

The Cabinet are meeting in Newcastle on Monday to promote the Great Exhibition of the North, if there are to be any northern announcements before parliamentary recess that would be the logical place to make them.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The Cabinet are meeting in Newcastle on Monday to promote the Great Exhibition of the North, if there are to be any northern announcements before parliamentary recess that would be the logical place to make them.

That is very useful information and I agree. Politicians love stuff like that and it makes logical sense.

 

[Ploughman]

Rehash of old announcements is more likely.

 

[Overspeed110]

The Cabinet are meeting in Newcastle on Monday to promote the Great Exhibition of the North, if there are to be any northern announcements before parliamentary recess that would be the logical place to make them.

The only thing we will get from this completely useless inept "government" will be sound bites, spin, lies and yet more B.S.

 

[MotorcycleAlan]

Additional platforms to improve reliability seems OK down south, such as at er... Derby.

Didn't realise Derby was in the south it seems a lot further north than Watford to me, which I thought was the dividing line

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Didn't realise Derby was in the south it seems a lot further north than Watford to me, which I thought was the dividing line

Perhaps Derbyshire has been seconded into the Home Counties "on the quiet" whilst Brexit features heavily in current news....

 

[swt_passenger]

Didn't realise Derby was in the south it seems a lot further north than Watford to me, which I thought was the dividing line

It was meant as a dig at those who think improvements only ever occur in the south.

 

[edwin_m]

On a point of information Derby isn't getting any more platforms, although it loses one rather useless short bay and gains one through platform (plus one that will only be used temporarily during the works). There are few terminating trains at Derby and the trains that reverse there will probably be concentrated on fewer platforms in future, so platform capacity isn't really an issue. The extra platforms are more to enable a simpler and faster track layout at the south end.

 

[AndrewE]

There are few terminating trains at Derby and the trains that reverse there will probably be concentrated on fewer platforms in future, so platform capacity isn't really an issue. The extra platforms are more to enable a simpler and faster track layout at the south end.

only the hourly service from Crewe, although that has seemed to use one of the through platforms for several months now. I guess it is a lot safer (and faster) to run in to a through platform than into a bay - as long as there isn't already a train in it, in which case there would be no gain.

 

[Chester1]

The easier solution would be to only rebuild Oxford Road to 4 longer platforms and make some services 8 coaches.

I would have 12 run through Oxford Road mostly using platforms 3 and 4. The CLC stoppers could terminate and start at platforms 1 and 2. A service pattern of:

Northern:

2tph - Lime Street (all stops DMU via Warrington Central - Starting at Oxford Road)

Lime Street (all stops EMU via Chat Moss) - double 319s
2tph - Preston (EMU via Bolton) - double 319s
Wigan Northwestern (EMU via Chat Moss) - double 319s
Blackpool North (EMU via Bolton) - 331

Lime Street (fast DMU via Warrington Central) - 195
Leeds (Fast DMU via Calder Valley) - 195

Other ToCs:

Middlesbrough (TPE)
Edinburgh/Glasgow (TPE)
Newcastle (TPE)
Lime Street (EMT)
Llandudno (ATW)

That would require diverting the Wigan via Westhoughton service to Victoria but would mean 4tph of double 319s opperating through Oxford Road and Piccadilly 13 and 14 providing a huge increase in capacity using extra stock that is currently off lease. In the short term Northern could extend the leases on some of the 323s to allow 6 coach EMU sets to run. Obviously, this suggestion relies on a reasonable cost for upgrading the platforms between Manchester and Liverpool / Preston to 160m+. The extra capacity would buy time to see what happens with NPR and with ERTMS.