Planned light rail networks in the early 2000s

[thenorthern]

The other day I found an old news paper article from 2004 shortly after the Nottingham Express Transit opened discussing proposed tram networks. Some of them included Leeds Supertram, Bristol Supertram, MerseyTram, Glasgow Trams, Edinburgh Trams and Belfast Trams.

There was also talk at the time of the ULtra in Cardiff at the time, a new Tyneside Tram to run alongside the Metro and major expansions to the Glasgow Subway, Midland Metro and Manchester Metrolink.

So far the only new system has been the Edinburgh Trams and many of the extensions of other networks have been rather small compared to what was planned with the exception of the Manchester Metrolink.

It made me think though compared to then why has so little been done in real term to what was planned in 2004 and are we likely to see any new light rail systems open in the near future.

 

[ooo]

Could you scan the article please?

 

[snowball]

I think a network was proposed around Southampton and Portsmouth.

 

[thenorthern]

I think a network was proposed around Southampton and Portsmouth.

There was something that was going to run through Gossport I think, not heard about that for years.

Wikipedia also lists the Cross River and West London Trams as well as the Abbey Line and Penistone Tram Train trial.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

There was a discussion of opening a tram in Grimsby but I can't find it on Google anymore. Edinbugh and Nottingham weren't only system, there's Blackpool which got modernised with trams 40-80 years newer than the old ones, so practically new.

Parry People Movers website contains infomation on some sites where they were considered for use on new tramways.
http://www.parrypeoplemovers.com/ppm-uk-map.htm
You will have to select the area you're interested in on their map.
And Trampower tried to get a new line in Preston but the council aren't helpful, a test track was even built.

And BBC proposed a Hull Supertram at one point!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/humber/content/articles/2008/10/22/light_rail_feature.shtml
It has a nice map too.

Rotherham extention of Supertram has started, trams are built in Spain and I think work on clearing has started.
Metrolink in Manchester, Midland Metro, Nottingham Express transit, Edinburgh Trams, Blackpool Trams are all expanding or are planning on it.
So the light-rail boom isn't over.
Just sad that a city like Leeds will end up with trolley buses rather than trams.
I attached the proposed Tyne and Wear metro which was to include new tramlines.

 

[Busaholic]

The Labour government of ten and twelve years ago became scared of trams getting the same kind of public support, both in the emotional and financial senses, as in other European countries, especially after Alastair Darling had become Transport Secretary. Whether, as an Edinburgh MP, he was wary of the Scots Nats rabblerousing and seeking to make political capital out of any attempt to start a tram system in that city, I do not know.
He would also have been confronted with the political infighting that helped do for the Liverpool, Leeds and Bristol schemes (the latter being an impossible place to achieve anything worthwhile for public transport for decades). The proposed Leeds one-route trolleybus scheme is all that is left of these proposals, and even that imo has less chance of being achieved than HS2 to Leeds, i.e. very low indeed, not helped by the over-dominant local bus operator, First, sticking their unwanted oar in and 'offering' a state-of-the-art bus system in its place. By state-of-the-art, they're meaning 'ftr', a failure elsewhere, and the ego-driven New Routemaster.

Expressed simplistically, tram schemes take too long to develop and build here as opposed to many other countries through being over-engineered because of UK regulations and the cost of moving underground infrastructure resting almost solely with the tramway promoter.

 

[edwin_m]

My recollection is that Darling canned the Fareham-Gosport and Liverpool tram proposals along with the Metrolink "big bang" which was the only one that was later revived (in several stages). The Bristol project had fallen apart some time earlier. Boris canned the cross-river and Uxbridge Road tramways soon after his election.

 

[thenorthern]

I think the disappointing usage of the Midland Metro has meant that many new tram networks just haven't been built.

I think as well there were proposals to build a Birmingham Underground in a similar way to London although the geology was found to be unsuitable.

There was talk about a Glasgow Subway expansion although I can't see that happening in the near future.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think the disappointing usage of the Midland Metro has meant that many new tram networks just haven't been built.

I think as well there were proposals to build a Birmingham Underground in a similar way to London although the geology was found to be unsuitable.

There was talk about a Glasgow Subway expansion although I can't see that happening in the near future.

The Glasgow subway has the disadvantage of a non-standard gauge (both track and loading) which I imagine would push the already high costs even higher.

European cities have the advantage of having never got rid of their legacy systems in most cases, in the UK we were quick to adopt tramways in the early 20th century, only to be very quick to rip them up during the 50s/60s.
It's remarkable that towns as (relatively) small and self-contained as Taunton built tramways, only to dismantle them a few years later.

 

[jopsuk]

Most of the French tramways built in recent years have been from scratch, the originals having been dismantled at the same time Britain was removing them. And they've gone BIG on trams

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Most of the French tramways built in recent years have been from scratch, the originals having been dismantled at the same time Britain was removing them. And they've gone BIG on trams

I was thinking more of the Netherlands, and many German and Austrian cities, some of which have trams older than the T-68s that Manchester have discarded.

 

[BananaRepublic]

The Fareham to Gosport tram (South Hampshire LRT) scheme was intended to address the chronic road congestion and limited route options between the towns and for getting in or out of Gosport in general.
It was also proposed to continue on from Gosport, through a deep tunnel under Portsmouth Harbour into the city of Portsmouth and envisioned to ultimately form part of a wider network around the whole Portsmouth Harbour hinterland..

The route started with a short distance of street running in Fareham, before joining the disused Fareham - Gosport railway line at a point near Fareham railway station.
Then the route followed the trackbed of the disused railway all the way to Gosport town centre, before resuming street running to the Quayside and entry into the tunnel portal.

It was cancelled due to the vast cost of the proposed tunnel and I've no idea if due consideration was given to terminating the scheme at Gosport and simply dropping the proposed tunnel under the harbour.

http://www.lrta.org/southhants.html

After the scheme was cancelled, they wasted no time in planning and building a Rapid Bus Transit Route, between Fareham and Gosport, which uses the disused railway trackbed, but only for half the distance from Fareham to Gosport, reverting to the busy, not so "Rapid" local roads for the remainder of the journey.

https://firmank.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/busway_41.png
https://www.transportxtra.com/files/12030-l.jpg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-17787398
http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/966...e_that_doesn_t_live_up_to_its_name/r/?ref=rss

Widely considered a complete waste of money, but at least it wasn't built as a guided busway.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I seem to remember there was at one point a crackpot scheme for a South Hampshire Monorail during the 1990s...

 

[Busaholic]

My recollection is that Darling canned the Fareham-Gosport and Liverpool tram proposals along with the Metrolink "big bang" which was the only one that was later revived (in several stages). The Bristol project had fallen apart some time earlier. Boris canned the cross-river and Uxbridge Road tramways soon after his election.

Uxbridge Road had already been shelved under Ken Livingstone's administration, due to implacable opposition from the London Borough of Ealing.

 

[thenorthern]

I think there was a Swansea Monorail proposal for a while although they have had to settle for a guided busway.

I know recently there were proposals for trams in Stoke-on-Trent and Derby although they were quickly rejected in both cities. There were proposals in Preston but I am not sure what is happening there. I think as well there was talk of a Milton Keynes tramway which would be the most ideal place to build a tramway in my opinion given its grid system.

 

[nottinghamcity]

Most of the French tramways built in recent years have been from scratch, the originals having been dismantled at the same time Britain was removing them. And they've gone BIG on trams

Spain dismantled all but (I think) two of their tram routes - one on Majorca, the other in Barcelona. They too have started a significant rebuilding. It hasn't all been plain sailing though, Jaen tram being a depressing case in point.

 

[edwin_m]

Spain dismantled all but (I think) two of their tram routes - one on Majorca, the other in Barcelona. They too have started a significant rebuilding. It hasn't all been plain sailing though, Jaen tram being a depressing case in point.

Not to mention Velez Malaga.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I know recently there were proposals for trams in Stoke-on-Trent and Derby although they were quickly rejected in both cities. There were proposals in Preston but I am not sure what is happening there. I think as well there was talk of a Milton Keynes tramway which would be the most ideal place to build a tramway in my opinion given its grid system.

There have been dozens if not hundreds of tramway proposals over the years. The ones that had significant work done on them within the past 20 years but haven't gone ahead are, off the top of my head and in no particular order:

Leeds, Merseytram, Croydon (Crystal Palace extension), Uxbridge Road, Cross River (Camden-Peckham), Fareham-Portsmouth, Bristol.

 

[BestWestern]

I seem to remember there was at one point a crackpot scheme for a South Hampshire Monorail during the 1990s...

That would certainly be interesting!

I'm curious though, what would be more expensive to construct; tramway or monorail?!

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Well I know maglevs are alot cheaper to construct than high speed railway.
And the tramway would have to move all the pipes under the road and resurface it whereas a monorail can simply put metal poles up to support the track.
The stations will cost more due to lifts and stairs though.
The Sydney monorail was replaced by a tramway so they must have problems.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

I wonder if light rail will work in new towns such as Telford or Milton Keynes? I think at the time of building, car usage was on the up and so they were built around car usage, which often means housing and shopping, etc. area are far apart, so light rail would sem to be ideal.

 

[edwin_m]

Well I know maglevs are alot cheaper to construct than high speed railway.

Source?

And the tramway would have to move all the pipes under the road and resurface it whereas a monorail can simply put metal poles up to support the track.
The stations will cost more due to lifts and stairs though.
The Sydney monorail was replaced by a tramway so they must have problems.

The monorail might still have to move some utilities to provide foundations for the supports. The stations will be much more intrusive as well as costly.

There are two big problems with monorails. One is that points are extremely cumbersome to build and slow to operate, so monorails tend to be simple loops or sometimes end-to-end. The other is that if emergency evacuation provision is made equivalent to that required for a tramway, the structure isn't much smaller than would be needed for an elevated light rail.

On the whole the various rubber-tyred peoplemovers are usually a better bet than a monorail, unless the science fiction factor is considered to be important.

 

[thenorthern]

I remember going to a lecture in Lichfield of all places about the proposed ULtra system in Cardiff which was probably the most unrealistic proposal there was.

The Economic downturn I don't think helped light rail building although Alistair Darling was probably the biggest opposition.

With Monorails there are restrictions on height in some places which makes them difficult to build.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

by edwin_m.
"Source?"

http://www.500kmh.com/maps.html
This is the UK Ultraspeed website, who suggest that a maglev would be faster, cheaper, less overhead wires, and would be more future proof than HS2.

 

[edwin_m]

Good unbiased source there then ... NOT!

 

[thenorthern]

I can't see a maglev being built in the United Kingdom for a long long time. The British National Party was proposing one but they have thankfully faded into obscurity now.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

http://www.railway-technology.com/features/feature1606/
This article says the UK government thinks the UK Ultraspeed will cost £60bn, not bad compared to HS2 as it runs from Liverpool and Glasgow too.

The World's first commercial maglev was in the UK.
It is certainly going to become popular in the future, not least due to their speeds which are faster than current trains. And often cheaper.

Here's more articles.
http://www.quora.com/What-are-the-cost-differences-between-Maglev-and-conventional-high-speed-rail
http://www.californiaprogressreport...y-levitated-trains-was-maglev-ever-contention

Back onto tramways, I remember hearing a suggestion that Liverpool's overhead railway should be built again instead of a tramway.

 

[edwin_m]

http://www.railway-technology.com/features/feature1606/
This article says the UK government thinks the UK Ultraspeed will cost £60bn, not bad compared to HS2 as it runs from Liverpool and Glasgow too.

And following that link also reveals that the only route in commercial service was three times over budget. And none of the "imminent" developments back in 2008 has actually happened.

You should take a look at this one, which pretty comprehensively demolishes the case for Maglev in the UK:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....supportingdocs/railwhitepapermaglevreport.pdf

As well as containing the cost figure you refer to, there are some pretty convincing technical reasons not to adopt it.

 

[thenorthern]

Back to the topic in hand I think there has been talk several times of extending the Tyne and Wear Metro to the MetroCentre which would be good if they did although given there is already a 4 trains per hour from Newcastle Station I can't see how a the additional Tyne and Wear Metro services could improve things.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

The Tyne & Wear Metro extention to MetroCentre was to be a tramway, not replacing any trains. It will run from Newcastle Central to Gateshead first and later run to West Denton. See my map on first page.

 

[edwin_m]

The Tyne & Wear Metro extention to MetroCentre was to be a tramway, not replacing any trains. It will run from Newcastle Central to Gateshead first and later run to West Denton. See my map on first page.

Although branded as Metro with integrated ticketing etc, the Metrocentre route if built will have no connection with the existing Metro for vehicles, so could use a different and incompatible technology.