Planes grounded, special train requirements?

[MCR247]

Typhoons go a lot faster than commercial jets so they suck in more air

 

[jopsuk]

Much more complicated than that! Commercial jets have high-bypass turbofans, where most of the air they suck in doesn't actually got through the fuel burning part of the engine- they're sort of like large ducted rotors powered by a turbine engine. Jet fighter engines are low-bypass- much closer to turbojets. So, a much higher proportion of the air intake goes into the hot part of the engine.

On the other hand, the air intake on a Eurofighter is minute compared to that on a commercial turbofan.

 

[silentone]

Today's 07.55 from Inverness to the Cross very full, most of first class is taken as well. Not sure if this is normal for this train, or if it is due to the flights situation.

I've no idea what it is with that train and its opposite northbound service both are a nightmare. I guess it's the time of day they pass through the major stations but they are always fairly well loaded.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The Highland Chieftan

I've no idea what it is with that train and its opposite northbound service . . . . but they are always fairly well loaded.

Other factors might be that the Chieftan is the only comfortable train of the day for the northern 150 miles of its journey, its the only direct train of the day between the Highlands and some busy Cities and some useful interchanges, and its the only train of the day from the Highlands to London.
Also, its timings are pretty convenient for most of these journeys (tho another one 3 / 4 hours earlier northbound and 3 / 4 hours later southbound would be, too).
In fact the only thing it doesn't have is a restaurant car (which for a 600 mile journey is crazy!).
So I don't think you should be surprised! Especially during all of the tourist holiday season, Christmas & New Year and Bank Holidays in both England & Scotland, and University term start/ends.

 

[route:oxford]

I've no idea what it is with that train and its opposite northbound service both are a nightmare. I guess it's the time of day they pass through the major stations but they are always fairly well loaded.

It's always busy, particularily southbound. Northbound, at least north of Edinburgh it does tend to be quieter.

Inverness could do with an additional daily service to London, or at least a long-haul service to somewhere in England, Birmingham perhaps?

In BR days, where could you travel to directly from Inverness and which single service would be best placed for re-introduction?

 

[Greenback]

It's always busy, particularily southbound. Northbound, at least north of Edinburgh it does tend to be quieter.

Inverness could do with an additional daily service to London, or at least a long-haul service to somewhere in England, Birmingham perhaps?

In BR days, where could you travel to directly from Inverness and which single service would be best placed for re-introduction?

The Clansman. I wish I'd traveleld on it. Inverness - London via the West Coast and Birmingham.

 

[route:oxford]

The Clansman. I wish I;d traveleld on it. Inverness - London via the West Coast and Birmingham.

Now that would be good.

Interestingly, and I'm not sure how it was in the Clansman days, if it were to be done now the Scottish journey time would probably exceed the English journey time.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

What makes this discussion particulary more relevant than the usual "wouldn't it be nice if trains ran from AAA to ZZZ?" is that if internal air transport was to experience significant handicaps again, then its going to be these very-long-distance journeys that our rail network would be called upon to provide. (That was the point of this thread in the first place!)

For all my enjoyment of the route, and my winge about no restaurant car, I can't help thinking we really need to be doing some very detailled research into long-distance internal travel in the UK that currently includes air, and looking at how that could best be catered for by rail.
And we need to be researching, planning and costing it now!
(Just the one Highlands - London service a day isn't going to cope, is it?)

I don't think I'd be the only one on here who'd be very annoyed if such an air closure occurred again and we still didn't have a properly researched, informed, resourced, workable and viable plan ready to roll across our network. (Even a half baked researched, with half costed solution would do!)

So, my question is . . . are DfT (or any of the TOCs) doing the research and contingency planning and costings now? Just in case we have another air closure?
We are, aren't we? Surely? (Must just be that I've been looking in the wrong places)

 

[Bedpan]

The main thing that needs to be researched in my opinion is finding a way of getting from England to France (or Spain for that matter) rather than Scotland. At least it was possible to get to and from Scotland without having to queue for hours part way through the journey. Seems to me that Eurotunnel have a lot to explain, how easy would it have been for them to have carried foot passengers (albeit standing) through the tunnel, with onward specials from Cheriton to London laid on by Southeastern? Surely easier and cheaper than chartering cruise ships for those stuck in Bilbao/Santander (however did they all come to be there in the first place: was it a migration from Madrid when the 100 coaches that were supposed to be there weren't)?

 

[dk1]

Just back from a few days in Marseille. Stayed in London last Sunday & went over to St.Pancras for a meal & a few beers. It was very chaotic with many stranded & no availability. A stroll over to Kings Cross i witnessed 3 Anglo-Scottish trains arrive within 15 minutes (2x91 1xHST) & you never thought the passengers where going to stop pouring off all of them. Monday at 08.00 (with a sore head!) & the Eurostar terminal was once again heaving. Boarded tghe 08.55 for a punctual sprint to Paris.

The 14.15 double set TGV Duplex to Marseille departed with passengers on all stair cases, buffet floor & vestibules. This was not helped by the threat of a rail strike across France. Luckilly this had very little effect on the TGV network in the end. Arrival in South of France was just 15 down due to an additional stop to help out air passengers.

Returning Thursday again on a double set Duplex TGV it was very full but comfortable. Good job we arrived on time & made connection at Gare du Nord for London as Eurostar made regular announcments that both classes where full in ALL Eurostars until Monday!!

What came across with the dozens of people we spoke to who had had horrendous problems travelling from all over Europe was how excellent the rail system was with many saying they would certainly look at it in the future especially Eurostar. Americans & Aussies where the most impressed as air is all they usually know.

Arrival back into St.Pancras was 1 minute early at 16.37 which was a very credible 9hrs after leaving Marseille & allowing 97 minutes to cross Paris as no convenient via Lille TGVs where available.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The main thing that needs to be researched in my opinion is finding a way of getting from England to France (or Spain for that matter) rather than Scotland.

Well, the trouble is, we don't know the details of whatever future hazard we'd be planning for. My challenge was:" . . are DfT (or any of the TOCs) doing the research and contingency planning and costings now? Just in case we have another air closure?" and what I meant by this was more than just the "rescue" operation of those stranded when an air-closure is imposed.
You are quite correct in identifying the demand for substantial rescuing of short-stay travellers in Europe. But even those numbers are very dependent on the holiday seasons and business calendars.

I was anticipating that, for any number of reasons, we might plan for a sustained loss or reduction in air traffic, and consequently, the opportunity to plan for increased demand for rail travel.
Surely that would include an analysis of internal and international traffic?
Your point, bedpan, is perfectly appropriate for the situation which actually arose this time. But next time?
The aviation industry may be airborne again, but it has not yet had enough time to analyse the long-term effects of this volcanic incident on maintenance intervals, and a large number of possible long-term failures. There still might be reductions in services in the future.

To put this in context, we have a record of mis-judging emergency planning. eg. We criticised the UK government for under-provision for Tamiflu. And then they over-reacted and now we have 2million pounds worth of the "cure" on the shelf.
But what I'm asking for is planning and costing (no capital expenditure). Just the reassurance that there are various plans in place that would actually work following a loss of air capacity - whether its internal or international, partial or complete, short-term or prolonged.

 

[deltic]

What makes this discussion particulary more relevant than the usual "wouldn't it be nice if trains ran from AAA to ZZZ?" is that if internal air transport was to experience significant handicaps again, then its going to be these very-long-distance journeys that our rail network would be called upon to provide. (That was the point of this thread in the first place!)

For all my enjoyment of the route, and my winge about no restaurant car, I can't help thinking we really need to be doing some very detailled research into long-distance internal travel in the UK that currently includes air, and looking at how that could best be catered for by rail.
And we need to be researching, planning and costing it now!
(Just the one Highlands - London service a day isn't going to cope, is it?)

I

According to the CAA in 2009 daily passenger flows in each direction equate to

Inverness-London 426
Inverness-Birmingham 41
Inverness-Bristol 100
Inverness-Manchester 69

Readily accommodated by additional HST?

You may be surprised to know that there are only 8 UK domestic air routes, that dont involve flights over water, that carry more than 500 passengers a day in each direction,

As has been mentioned before domestic air travel in the UK is trivial

 

[DaveNewcastle]

According to the CAA in 2009 daily passenger flows in each direction equate to
. . . . .
As has been mentioned before domestic air travel in the UK is trivial

Thanks for these numbers, deltic!

I guess, though, we were concentrating on Inverness numbers following the posts by 142094 and silentone.
What I'm hoping that planners have done is that they've looked at the whole matrix of passengers numbers between all internal and international airports, and the nearest applicable nodes on the rail networks.

But again, thanks for those passenger numbers!
(I'm now intriged to know what the original start point and ultimate destination was for the Inverness-Bristol and Inverness-London passengers, but that's me becoming too interested in just one aspect of this thread!)

 

[Failed Unit]

According to the CAA in 2009 daily passenger flows in each direction equate to

Inverness-London 426
Inverness-Birmingham 41
Inverness-Bristol 100
Inverness-Manchester 69

Readily accommodated by additional HST?

You may be surprised to know that there are only 8 UK domestic air routes, that dont involve flights over water, that carry more than 500 passengers a day in each direction,

As has been mentioned before domestic air travel in the UK is trivial

On the Inverness - London traffic how much of it is going beyond London? (as mentioned by Dave). There are people that do Aberdeen and Inverness - London by rail, whatever floats thier boat, but to me that is just a bit too long.

However other domestic air journeys that would not really cope if all the passengers transfered to rail mirror the Cross Country route. If Scotland - Southampton / Bristol routes were grounded tomorrow I can't see XC been able to take up the slack!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In fact the only thing it doesn't have is a restaurant car (which for a 600 mile journey is crazy!).

Good old National Express killed that one off :cry:

 

[Bedpan]

I entirely agree with you DaveNewcastle. Its quite forseeable that air travel will suffer large scale disruption from time to time (although not necessarily due to a volcano!) and one would have hoped that there would have been contingency plans drawn up to deal with the situation. And particular emphesis should be paid to the pinch points such as Edinburgh/Glasgow - London and getting across the Channel.

Anybody know what the volcano is doing now by the way? I haven't heard anything about it at all since the flights were resumed, is it still spewing out ash?

 

[jon0844]

Anybody know what the volcano is doing now by the way? I haven't heard anything about it at all since the flights were resumed, is it still spewing out ash?

After what BA did to get flights going again, the question is what happens if the volcano does erupt again and the wind carries the ash back over the UK.

I suspect they'll be pressured into keeping the skies open and that's when we could begin to see risks being taken.

Hopefully, for the sake of Gordon Brown, the volcano will wait until May 7th before doing anything.

 

[gordonthemoron]

This shows the activity of the neighboring volcano Katla which is much larger than the one which has already erupted

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Interesting link, Gordon. Is there a home page it is linked off please?

 

[gordonthemoron]

This is where I got the link to Katla (it's on the menu bar at the top right).

The graph appears to come from the Icelandic Met Office

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Ah, I see, thank you. I had been expecting it to have come off a volcano monitoring site with links like this to hundreds of active volcanoes around the world!

 

[Pumbaa]

Ah, I see, thank you. I had been expecting it to have come off a volcano monitoring site with links like this to hundreds of active volcanoes around the world!

BGS/USGS and other organisations, such as the various observatories around the world, have links to real-time data from many volcanoes. You need to be a member to gain access though.