Planes grounded, special train requirements?

[Failed Unit]

Seems most of the BA flights have been permitted to land in Shannon.

So, as the NATS / DfT did't let them land here, I just hope they'll make it easy for passengers to get home tomorrow. And have a very good excuse for making them wait in the air over an empty Heathrow airport!

Shannon, so a ferry accross the Irish sea followed by coach / train whatever. I would be interested to know what was wrong with landing at Edinburgh (it is still open) Planes too big? no customs? They would need to fly through the cloud anyway? At least in Edinburgh East Coast could easily absorb the crowds getting home. (Glasgow is closed again from what I understand not sure about Newcastle)

 

[yorkie]

I guess the question is no how safe is safe?

On the roads, not very safe at all.

But for other modes of transport, a level of safety on a par with road transport is considered far too unsafe.

I see the entire GWML was closed from around 5pm to around 8pm today due to a gas leak near the line. If anyone is injured taking alternative road transport we'd not even hear about it!

 

[jopsuk]

Shannon, so a ferry accross the Irish sea followed by coach / train whatever. I would be interested to know what was wrong with landing at Edinburgh (it is still open) Planes too big? no customs? They would need to fly through the cloud anyway? At least in Edinburgh East Coast could easily absorb the crowds getting home. (Glasgow is closed again from what I understand not sure about Newcastle)

There was a flight from Doha landed just before 8pm at Edinburgh as far as I can see. I'd have thought the main issue there is size- and the same goes for Glasgow, I don't think they can handle laden 747s (though someone will doubtless correct me).

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Now, at 8:20pm, Lord Adonis (yes, he, our aircraft engine Safety Officer) has permitted the BA flights to land in the UK.
They'll just have to circle around in that ash for another half hour or more before they do.
It's taken all that time for the politicians to be persuaded by "naughty" BA that they can fly their planes into London again.

What a farce!

 

[87015]

If anyone, it would have been Lord Adonis who would have spoken to the TOCs, although from the very little media reporting there has been they seemed to sort it out themselves with NR

The orders came from the DfT via ATOC.

Overall, the loss of revenue from airport services is expected to be far greater than gains in extra passengers - the majority of people just won't or can't travel.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

And now . . . . The Civil Aviation Authority has told NATS to remove all its restrictions on air travel in UK airspace.
Nothing to do with ash or volcanoes - its an order "from above".

It was too dangerous one minute - a stand-off from a big Company, a word from the Politicians, and now its safe.

So those BA flights still circling around, and others on their way, will all be able to land. And the passengers headed for London will get home tonight.

I think I might have said it before . . . Politics over Safety.
A sad day for UK transport

 

[Failed Unit]

And now . . . . The Civil Aviation Authority has told NATS to remove all its restrictions on air travel in UK airspace.
Nothing to do with ash or volcanoes - its an order "from above".

It was too dangerous one minute - a stand-off from a big Company, a word from the Politicians, and now its safe.

So those BA flights still circling around, and others on their way, will all be able to land. And the passengers headed for London will get home tonight.

I think I might have said it before . . . Politics over Safety.
A sad day for UK transport

I hope to god nothing happens to one of those planes, either now or in the next few days. Unsafe one minute, safe the next minute = large lawsuit if something goes wrong.

I wonder if 2200 BST was chosen so the first plane landing can be filmed on the 2200 news (how cynical)

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The orders came from the DfT via ATOC.

Overall, the loss of revenue from airport services is expected to be far greater than gains in extra passengers - the majority of people just won't or can't travel.

Do you know this, I suspect the TOC's did it on thier own back. GNER certainly did when BA suspended all domestic flights back in Dec 2006 due to the fog.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I wonder if 2200 BST was chosen so the first plane landing can be filmed on the 2200 news (how cynical)

Expect lots of "spin" on the News. Adonis or Brown will now tell us that they have been working hard to ensure the safety of British people . . . and how they've finally achieved this, despite the terror of an Icelandic volcano . . . and we all owe them so much gratitude.

Oh, what's that circling overhead now? Its coming this way! Is it a bird?
No!
I can nearly make it out. Yes! Yes, Its an election. And its coming this way !

And don't expect to hear much about Wee Willy of British Airways who has just held the Government to ransom. And won.

But we should feel sorry for the poor passengers who were pawns in all this - those who after being kept circling overhead had to make a break for Brussels, Shannon or elsewhere. And the thousands still waiting in airports and overpriced hotels.
Each one of them is a pawn in this manoever.

And by the way - if anybody still thinks this was a safety issue - the current Met Office maps show just the same ash cloud over Southern England that was there this afternoon.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well, the first of BA's jumbo's has just landed in London.

It seems as if Willy Walsh launched a personal airborne attack on the UK's DfT today - an attack consisting of 24 wide bodied jets. Some had to give up and retreat while they still had the fuel. The rest will be coming in to land shortly.

I will never agree that he was right to do this - I will never be knowledgeable enough to know what are safe conditions for aircraft.
But I'm ashamed that our government denied them access to our airports "on principle". A principle which became inherently UNsafe the longer it went on.

As well as sympathy with the passengers who were caught up in all this, it must have been an awful day for all the staff working those flights and working in the regulatory bodies who were all caught up in it.
Shameful day.

(I really must get on with some work now, but this drama really has been incredible!)

 

[jon0844]

It's mad. The first flight was from Canada within a few minutes of the restrictions being lifted - then loads more.

I was on the M25 and could see them in their holding pattern.

Someone who works for BA was on the radio pointing out that nobody told them to come out, so there are far too few ground crew ready for the planes to arrive. I bet it will take some time to get people (and their bags more importantly) off the plane.

Still, the press are there to take the video of people coming off.. the tears of joy and so on. The media will love it - but will Gordon when the truth comes out about how it all happened? He already looks like a fool for promising war ships and coaches, and running all those extra trains that were running anyway.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

This may be of interest http://www.heathrowcam.net/liveradar.php and it's fully live, no delayed transmission at all!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Someone who works for BA was on the radio pointing out that nobody told them to come out, so there are far too few ground crew ready for the planes to arrive.

If that's really true, then it must have been a loal rostering issue. This "attack" by wee WW (BA) of 24+ wide bodied, fully laden planes from several remote global airports, designed to arrive in quick succession at 7:30pm onwards would HAVE to have been orchestrated at least 24 hours beforehand. Crew rostered, Passengers & luggage informed and boarding, Aircraft prepped & stocked, fuel estimates supplied (for more than usual anticipated additional flight time during the "stand-off"), and then informing LHR. Yes, Heathrow was informed. These arrivals were on the boards at Heathrow all afternoon. It was planned.
Willie Walsh was in a COBRA meeting (with Met Office, NATS, the CAA, DfT and other airlines) this afternoon. That was planned.

Perhaps Heathrow management didn't anticipate the rouse would work - I didn't. I saw the first 12 flights in the air at 2pm (from the N.Americas) and my posts still show I guesed they'd all be diverted (leading to the interest for rail capacity!).

I was wrong. Willie Walsh challenged DfT. They didn't relent for a while. He kept his planes circling in the no-fly area. They didn't let him land. He kept them flying. No one would officially remove the blockade. He kept them circling in the "ash containment area" (tho' 3 had to quit to land elsewhere). The Government relented, but decided to save face - they announced that they had received new analysis on engine wear. They're Willies engines! He'd already done the risk assessment on them (or so I hope!).

No other countries had new engine wear information to announce.

Still, the press are there to take the video of people coming off.. the tears of joy and so on. The media will love it - but will Gordon when the truth comes out about how it all happened? He already looks like a fool for promising war ships and coaches, and running all those extra trains that were running anyway.

That will depend on what we believe really happened today, I guess.

I know which profession I trust most to assess aviation risks.
And the relevance for THIS forum is :- That its not the DfT.

 

[90019]

I would be interested to know what was wrong with landing at Edinburgh (it is still open) Planes too big? no customs?

In theory, only the weight.

 

[Failed Unit]

I was wrong. Willie Walsh challenged DfT. They didn't relent for a while. He kept his planes circling in the no-fly area. They didn't let him land. He kept them flying. No one would officially remove the blockade. He kept them circling in the "ash containment area" (tho' 3 had to quit to land elsewhere). The Government relented, but decided to save face - they announced that they had received new analysis on engine wear. They're Willies engines! He'd already done the risk assessment on them (or so I hope!).

The risk assessment was flying them in the danger zone for 3 hours :roll: (unless their flight over the weekend counts).

I did suspect this would happen, the industry was losing a fortune. We all know that a couple of days they would down tools and not say much as it is a safety issue afterall and we can't be seen to challenge that. Once it was clear that the ash was going no-where fast they started thinking this is going to cost us serious money, we can't afford to have planes doing nothing. Hence why KLM and Luthansa started the challenge. It was only a matter of time before the government(s) had to back down.

I wonder what will happen if we get some engine damage on a plane all flights are off? If one crashes the airline will say the CAA lets us fly, the CAA will say you did the risk assessment. I guess we are doing some live testing now, we know the ash damages planes, we just don't know how much as we are going to find out the hard way.

 

[jon0844]

I know people were keen to get home, but were those BA passengers told they were taking part in a game and would have to circle for hours (in potentially dangerous airspace) until the Government and NATS caved in?

I wonder what they were told before departure, given that they had nowhere to land at that time.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I wonder what will happen if we get some engine damage on a plane all flights are off? If one crashes the airline will say the CAA lets us fly, the CAA will say you did the risk assessment. I guess we are doing some live testing now, we know the ash damages planes, we just don't know how much as we are going to find out the hard way.

Correct!
There was no empirical science or analysis to justify the closure of airspace.
And there was no empirical science or analysis to justify opening airspace.

There IS suspected damage to an engine in Belgium, but the investigators haven't even started looking yet.

Short of designing some sort of test rig, we won't know (unless we find out the hard way). And what burden does that put on professional air crews?

 

[2030720310]

Correct!
There was no empirical science or analysis to justify the closure of airspace.
And there was no empirical science or analysis to justify opening airspace.

There IS suspected damage to an engine in Belgium, but the investigators haven't even started looking yet.

Short of designing some sort of test rig, we won't know (unless we find out the hard way). And what burden does that put on professional air crews?

I'm probably being very stupid here () but don't we have the experience from the 1982 incident with the BA flight?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...0.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsThird

 

[DaveNewcastle]

don't we have the experience from the 1982 incident with the BA flight?

There's been lots and lots of debate about all this and I can't summarise in a few words on here. Enough to say a)that in previous instances of damage, the ash cloud was visible; guidance subsequently was to descend with engines on idle - b) that was a "different kind of ash" (seriously, the ice is beleived to be responsible for a huge difference to the dynamics of the particles' behaviour). In this case, the Met Office maps were showing massive no-fly areas where there was no visible ash cloud.
Not the same.
There are many, many other recorded cases of aircraft encountering volcanic ash which didn't receive publicity but with inspection results available to technicians.

 

[2030720310]

There's been lots and lots of debate about all this and I can't summarise in a few words on here. Enough to say a)that in previous instances of damage, the ash cloud was visible; guidance subsequently was to descend with engines on idle

So if its engines had been running it would have been ok?
Or were they they running?

 

[flymo]

Something weird about all this. A plane should not take off unless it is cleared all the way to it's destination, i.e. it has an arrival slot approved and reserved. To my mind that means that any plane heading for Heathrow must have been cleared for landing there before it took off.

If it transpires that the airspace was open at take off and then subsequently closed, diversions to alternates must happen. If no alternates were available then a Mayday call would have allowed them to land anywhere suitable, including Heathrow. I wonder if we will ever find out what really happened?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

So if its engines had been running it would have been ok?
Or were they they running?

In the much publicised flight of a 747 back in '82, then power was demanded of all engines. Thats' what led to the ingestion of ash, to the solidification of ash under heat and pressure, then to engine failure. That's what led to the subsequent policy of idling and descending if aircraft enter an ash cloud.
But I repeat, that's a different scenario to the past week.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Something weird about all this. A plane should not take off unless it is cleared all the way to it's destination, i.e. it has an arrival slot approved and reserved. To my mind that means that any plane heading for Heathrow must have been cleared for landing there before it took off.

Not weird. Yesterday's flights were all scheduled for Heathrow (or Gatwick). Offers to land at diversionary airports were assured (Spain, Eire, Belgium, Netherlands). Passengers were aware that they may be diverted.
Planes were fuelled to tolerate the circling "on hold" while the COBRA meeting argued.

European control had already revised all their maps which showed no hazard. Their maps of hazardous regions differred from those being issued by NATS.
Same air, Same risks - different maps, different governments.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

What is that about an engine showing damage in Belgium? Doesn't seem to be anything on the news sites yet?

I guess it's not neccessarily volcano related - could in any case be an ordinary engine fault?

 

[flymo]

About the Belgium incident, and another reported incident out of Manchester:-

http://www.airlineindustryreview.com/latest-volcanic-ash-related-aircraft-accidents/

 

[DaveNewcastle]

What is that about an engine showing damage in Belgium? Doesn't seem to be anything on the news sites yet?

I guess it's not neccessarily volcano related - could in any case be an ordinary engine fault?

Its not really "news". A short World Airways flight from Maastricht to Oostende yesterday found with ash deposits. Waiting for analysis so too soon to jump to any conclusions. People mustn't panic at every operational incident. There's some level of incident in flying most days, including today. But they are well planned for and well managed.
If there was a scare story everytime a fault was reported then transport would be shut down in no time.

I'm much happier that evidence is being gathered and analysed by engine specialists so that decisions are made by them, rather than by politicians or those in regulatory bodies who are too uninformed to make a decision.
Lets concentrate on what we can learn about transport management and regulation?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I'm certainly not about to panic; I like flying actually - I have flown over 40 times on about 25 different types of aircraft.

What I don't like is the hassle at the airports, but I guess I'm not alone in that.

I have had one emergency landing ( Flying Eye, when the other passenger threw up over the radio transmitter! ) and one near crash ( Bell Jetranger; cleared a power line by a few inches(!) ) and neither incident did more than raise one of my eyebrows...

 

[turbo mick]

Iam Nights shift tonight FGW are running night specials from reading to gatwick i,ll be driving one of them to help passangers get home might be busy and some other services

Reading to Gatwick Airport

Two Turbo trains will operate from Reading to Gatwick Airport departing at 0034 and 0134 with approximate journey times of 90 minutes.
Gatwick Airport to Reading
Two Turbo trains will operate from Gatwick Airport to Reading departing at 0203 and 0303 with approximate journey times of 90 minutes.
London Paddington to Oxford
A High Speed Train service will operate from London Paddington to Oxford departing at 0434, with an approximate journey time of 60 minutes.
London Paddington to Cardiff
A High Speed Train service will operate from London Paddington to Cardiff departing at 0415, with an approximate journey time of 180 minutes.
London Paddington to Bristol
A High Speed Train service from London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads departing at approximately 0315, with an approximate journey time of 120 minutes.

 

[jon0844]

Do we have Gordon Brown to thank for that?

(Good show by the way!)

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Gordon Brown?
Who's he?

(Oh, hold on, do you mean the bloke who sent some boats off to Spain?)

 

[142094]

Today's 07.55 from Inverness to the Cross very full, most of first class is taken as well. Not sure if this is normal for this train, or if it is due to the flights situation.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Not sure if this is normal for this train, or if it is due to the flights situation.

No, I wouldn't call that normal, but not exceptional - and it can get very busy by Stirling, especially at the start/end of a holiday.

 

[chris89]

Well just thought to say that the RAF have tempoary suspened training flights, since ash was found in an Eurofighter Typhoon's engine.

Link

So looks like not out the wood's yet.