Planes grounded, special train requirements?

[Stuart Galbraith]

How feasible would it be to lease some of the better stock from the Heritage lines? I accept you wouldnt want to do 90mph running with it, but some of the BR Mk1s would probably be usable on slower routes.

BTW, I dont advocate using heritage traction, though the thought of Tornado or Western Champion being used in the role is a pleasant if unlikely thought

That said, perhaps 5043 hauling the Bristolian the other day is a move towards austerity measures?

 

[the sniper]

How feasible would it be to lease some of the better stock from the Heritage lines? I accept you wouldnt want to do 90mph running with it, but some of the BR Mk1s would probably be usable on slower routes.

There's no need to use Mk1's, there are plenty of safer Mk2's and Mk3 carriages about with the charter operators, should the TOC's be that interested in acquiring extra stock.

 

[Oliver]

I really wouldn't say it's that clear, for one, it's under the title 'Europe's leading low fares airline' and the subtitle 'Where we fly to'. Then the font they use doesn't stand out at all.

Well, you would have to have been living on another planet not to be aware of all this, and if you went to EasyJet's website I think you'd see it.

 

[silentone]

East Coast have been managing fairly well, this weekend has really not been as bad as people were expecting. Trains are busier than normal, this was expected with the end of the School holidays but there is no real business travel over the weekend. They even managed to print up some leaflets for customers welcoming them onboard and telling them East Coast are doing everything possible.

Monday however is looking like it could be a repeat of Thursday & Friday on both North & South services.

 

[route:oxford]

The 3 Adelantes with Northern should have been recalled on Friday and temporarily replaced with Loco, LHCS & DVT borrowed from the relevant operators.

The Adelantes could then run as a 15 car set with 850+ seats on a relief express run to Scotland, first stop Newcastle (not sure if it possible/workable to reform the first class coaches together).

Alternatives, there is another thread which suggests that there is a "spare" 180 hanging around a depot at the moment. This would give 2 10 car sets.

It's time for East Coast & Virgin to grab some publicity by running record-beating express services to Scotland.

Could a 15 Car Adelante beat the old BR timetabled 3h59m service from Kings Cross to Edinburgh? If so, by how much?

 

[northwichcat]

The 3 Adelantes with Northern should have been recalled on Friday and temporarily replaced with Loco, LHCS & DVT borrowed from the relevant operators.

The Adelantes could then run as a 15 car set with 850+ seats on a relief express run to Scotland, first stop Newcastle (not sure if it possible/workable to reform the first class coaches together).

Alternatives, there is another thread which suggests that there is a "spare" 180 hanging around a depot at the moment. This would give 2 10 car sets.

It's time for East Coast & Virgin to grab some publicity by running record-beating express services to Scotland.

Could a 15 Car Adelante beat the old BR timetabled 3h59m service from Kings Cross to Edinburgh? If so, by how much?

I think you're living in fantasy world.

How many East Coast crews sign 180s?
And how many stations do East Coast call at that have platforms long enough for 15 car trains?

Northern wouldn't be able to get crews to sign loco hauled by Monday morning and wouldn't be able to run a proper weekday service without the 180s or at least 10 replacement carriages. DRS staff run the Cumbrian loco shuttle on behalf of Northern but they wouldn't have time to learn the Blackpool-Hazel Grove line by Monday.

You seem to be suggesting that the 3 carriage Ds (1st class) could be rearranged so they are all adjacent. If you want a train in service ASAP then you shouldn't be taking it apart and rejoining them up. One carriage in each unit has an unused buffet so the weight would be wrong if you spilt up first and standard class.

Northern have also removed or covered 1st class signs and a lot of the table lamps are broken and haven't been repaired, so that wouldn't please people paying 3 figure sums for 1st class tickets.

 

[royaloak]

The 3 Adelantes with Northern should have been recalled on Friday and temporarily replaced with Loco, LHCS & DVT borrowed from the relevant operators.

The Adelantes could then run as a 15 car set with 850+ seats on a relief express run to Scotland, first stop Newcastle (not sure if it possible/workable to reform the first class coaches together).

Alternatives, there is another thread which suggests that there is a "spare" 180 hanging around a depot at the moment. This would give 2 10 car sets.

It's time for East Coast & Virgin to grab some publicity by running record-beating express services to Scotland.

Could a 15 Car Adelante beat the old BR timetabled 3h59m service from Kings Cross to Edinburgh? If so, by how much?

And a partridge in a pear tree! :roll:
Do you have a clue about the logistics of running a train service?

 

[route:oxford]

I think you're living in fantasy world.

Nope, this is definitely reality.

How many East Coast crews sign 180s?

The 180s are on hire from East Coast, so whilst logic doesn't always come into it, they *should* have crews ready.

And how many stations do East Coast call at that have platforms long enough for 15 car trains?

Kings X, Newcastle, Waverley?

Northern wouldn't be able to get crews to sign loco hauled by Monday morning and wouldn't be able to run a proper weekday service without the 180s or at least 10 replacement carriages. DRS staff run the Cumbrian loco shuttle on behalf of Northern but they wouldn't have time to learn the Blackpool-Hazel Grove line by Monday.

Could have been out all weekend training.

You seem to be suggesting that the 3 carriage Ds (1st class) could be rearranged so they are all adjacent.

Correct, nobody has said that it is impossible yet. I appreciate it is a problem with the 22X series.

If you want a train in service ASAP then you shouldn't be taking it apart and rejoining them up.

Fair enough, how many days would it take to remarshal a set?

One carriage in each unit has an unused buffet so the weight would be wrong if you spilt up first and standard class.

Isn't it more a little shoppette rather than a full-blown buffet and as none of the cars are trailers, would the weight really make much difference?

Northern have also removed or covered 1st class signs and a lot of the table lamps are broken and haven't been repaired, so that wouldn't please people paying 3 figure sums for 1st class tickets.

The world wouldn't end if an enterprising member of the East Coast team were to nip along to a stationers and buy some sticky labels.

If its only the lamps that are broken (rather than the fittings), then phone the wholesaler and get some!

For goodness sake, when did we reach the stage where an excuse for not running a rail service is "a secondary courtesy light in first class has a duff bulb"?

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

There's no need to use Mk1's, there are plenty of safer Mk2's and Mk3 carriages about with the charter operators, should the TOC's be that interested in acquiring extra stock.

Irish rail were scrapping some Mk3s a while ago werent they?

 

[northwichcat]

The 180s are on hire from East Coast, so whilst logic doesn't always come into it, they *should* have crews ready.

The 180s were proposed for services like Kings X to Harrogate and Lincoln. These services will require extra crews and are due to start in 2011 so it is likely that staff will be trained on 180s next year. That is if East Coast don't get their wish of swapping the 180s with Grand Central's HSTs.

If training had taken place in 2008 under National Express it would have expired by now and certainly wouldn't have included any Newcastle/Scottish crews.

The 180s with Northern are on hire from East Coast, but then 158s are on hire to Scotrail from Northern and 142s are on hire to FGW from Northern. Northern are short of units but can't recall the 158s because DfT have decided ScotRail can keep them and can't recall the 142s from FGW until FGW get cascaded 150s to replace them. DfT interfere too much for an operator to just say "We'll take our trains back."

Kings X, Newcastle, Waverley?

So are you proposing they go through Peterborough, Doncaster and York and a shorter train does all stations?

Could have been out all weekend training.

And cancelled a lot of services in the process?

I think you are forgetting that Northern serve a lot of towns/cities with ports such as Liverpool, Heysham and Hull and would have seen an increase in passengers this weekend just like East Coast and ATW have.

 

[route:oxford]

Theres a reason why he hasn't got a career in Transport Management - hes probably 14 and thinks he knows it all.

Sadly it's been a very long time since I was a member of Rail Riders.

The only time I touch "transport management" in my working life is when I instruct the reposession of large commercial vehicles, boats, aircraft and from time to time railway equipment. And, of course, sometimes the homes of directors/guarantors of those involved in transport.

I'm sure that will have a few of the regular posters "frothing".

 

[Failed Unit]

Re: using the 180's on East Coast, I don't think they are cleared North of Newcastle anyway yet....

Anyone know who the other rail corridors which compete with air are coping? Birmingham & Manchester - Scotland spring to mind. I know that Virgin are strengthening, are TPE. Do TPE need to strengthen? I guess people will also be tempted to drive to both these destinations.

Are Great Western noticing any extras going to Newquay?

If I was travelling Scotland - Bristol / Southampton I would probably go via London, but I wonder if XC are also seeing increased overcrowding?

 

[merlodlliw]

On glancing at the nat rail website, Carlisle departures,even though engineering
is cancelled today, it still shows bus departures to Glasgow, etc.

A bit confusing to travellers.

 

[northwichcat]

On glancing at the nat rail website, Carlisle departures,even though engineering
is cancelled today, it still shows bus departures to Glasgow, etc.

A bit confusing to travellers.

From TPE website:

Services this weekend
Weekend services between Manchester – Preston – Carlisle – Glasgow/Edinburgh were due to be affected by engineering works.

Rail replacement buses were due to operate however, working with Network Rail and Virgin Trains, we will operate a rail service as well as the replacement buses between Carlisle and Glasgow and also Carlisle and Edinburgh.

For further details please call National Rail Enquires on 08457 484950

Also on there, relating to Manchester Airport advance tickets:

First TransPennine Express tickets dated from Thursday 15th April to Monday 19th April inclusive for travel to/from Manchester Airport will have restrictions lifted to allow customers to travel on the most appropriate train to their revised flights. This applies to First TransPennine Express services and also to those connecting services you need to complete your journey.

 

[Donny Dave]

I'm half in agreement with Routexford here, as I do think East Coast have missed a trick ....

With the 180s recalled from Northern for a week or 2, they could have then worked with GC and Hull Trains to create extra capacity. With eaxtra stops and double 180 sets between London and Doncaster/York (for GC and HT), that would free up space on East Coast sets so they could concentrate on getting the maximum amount of passengers to North of York.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm half in agreement with Routexford here, as I do think East Coast have missed a trick ....

With the 180s recalled from Northern for a week or 2, they could have then worked with GC and Hull Trains to create extra capacity. With eaxtra stops and double 180 sets between London and Doncaster/York (for GC and HT), that would free up space on East Coast sets so they could concentrate on getting the maximum amount of passengers to North of York.

Yes I suppose that would work if Northern completely shut down their Sheffield--Scunthorpe-Hull service for the forseeable future to allow units to be released for Blackpool/Preston to Manchester/Hazel Grove services.

 

[Dolive22]

2 questions.

Q1 How fast can a driver be passed from one TOC to another, assuming an anxious DfT or a large fee persuades the TOCs concerned to expedite the process? My understanding is that they transfer train-driverness (what would be the licence to drive trains if we had a licence) by passing on paperwork that shows they are trained, which makes it seem like that could be done in hours if you can get a couple of admin staff in.

Q2 I doubt any mk1s are about to be used for releif services, but how many of them have air brakes? Are the fitting compatible with whatever would be available to haul them? I know some of them were dual air/vacuum, would they have enough braking power to meat modern regs with only air?

That sort of turned in to 4 questions.

 

[Lampshade]

Yes I suppose that would work if Northern completely shut down their Sheffield--Scunthorpe-Hull service for the forseeable future to allow units to be released for Blackpool/Preston to Manchester/Hazel Grove services.

Northern would never compromise the Eastern side for the Western side.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Have ScotRail been able to strengthen the normal single 156 unit on Stranraer services? I understand it's been packed, but I can't remember whether the intermediate stations between Ayr and Stranraer have platforms long enough for more than two coaches.

 

[deltic]

Do we really need all this extra capacity - the present service to Scotland could easily carry the majority of air passengers who still want to travel by alternative means - only about 10,000 passengers a day are flying between London and Edinburgh/Glasgow (ignoring transfer passengers) - probably about half of those trips are discretionary that people wont make if they can't fly.

An extra 5,000 passengers travelling each way on the ECML and WCML can readily be accommodated without additional trains being needed

 

[merlodlliw]

From TPE website:



Thanks for that, perhaps its me, but I imagine the buses will be empty
with the trains running.

 

[Geezertronic]

From TPE website:



Thanks for that, perhaps its me, but I imagine the buses will be empty
with the trains running.

Please can someone give merlodlliw lessons on how to quote again

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Some European air operators are resuming services.
KLM is resuming many services tonight, mainly (or possibly, only) freight.
Several flights over Europe already, incl Aeroflot.
Some Spanish, Polish and Norwegian airports open. More opening tomorrow.
BA still appears to have nothing planned for London tomorrow, tho' has a test flight to Cardiff in the air at present. Adonis has confirmed that no pass or freight in UK tomorrow.

 

[Greenback]

Would anyone happen to know the train situation at Fishguard. I may have to route back to London that way later this week as a foot passenger. I know Stena and Irish ferries are full to bursting.

Sensible thing would be for FGW to 'assist' Arriva Wales and extend a Swansea service HST to Fishguard as per the old days. I would hope its more than the usual 1 or 2 car dmu.

Irish Rail reporting very heavy loadings on trains to Rosslare including the Waterford line scheduled for closure due to lack of use!

The train from Fishguard arrived in Swansea this afternoon at 1600 with six cars (3x150's) and very heavily loaded. I counted 74 people off before the platform was swamped and I physically couldn't count any more! It ook around 5 minutes for the train to be cleared of passnegers! The train then formed the 1605 to Pembroke Dock, which was less well loaded!

 

[holyflyer]

Thanks for the info Greenback - I imagine lots of families heading back to UK at the end of the school holidays. I need to make a decision Wed/Thur. Any helpful info very much appreciated.

 

[merlodlliw]

Some European air operators are resuming services.
KLM is resuming many services tonight, mainly (or possibly, only) freight.
Several flights over Europe already, incl Aeroflot.
Some Spanish, Polish and Norwegian airports open. More opening tomorrow.
BA still appears to have nothing planned for London tomorrow, tho' has a test flight to Cardiff in the air at present. Adonis has confirmed that no pass or freight in UK tomorrow.

Test flight this afternoon, testing the air between West Wales/Aber/Wrexham turn off beacon & Liverpool, passed over the Wrexham beacon about 4.00p.m.
neighbour is in the trade.

 

[boing_uk]

I cant beleive this.

So the proposals being made by the unenlightened on here are:

transfer the 180's to East Coast who have no crew who can sign them, magically train some crew up over a weekend and to hell with the Blackpool - Hazel Grove services;

transfer the 180's with Northern crews over to 180's who cannot sign the ECML as they dont have route knowledge, meaning I presume that East Coast would have to have conductor drivers as well; again to hell with the Blackpool - Hazel Grover services;

forming the 180's in to a three unit ensemble with all the first class cars remarshalled in to one of the units, moving them over to East Coast and still with nothing to cover the Hazel Grove services.

Seriously, which planet do you people live on? You clearly do not have ANY idea how the railway operates.*

Perhaps in BR days, then yes a few relief services could have been laid on with coaching stock and locos available. But these are not BR days, these are the privatised railways days and the TOC's are no doubt responding as best and as cost effectively as they can with the resources available to them.

And even then, training up crew on a new type of traction isnt something that can be just done "over a weekend" Im sure. What about drivers hours, crew rest days and all of that? How many drivers do you want to train up in 48 hours on three available units on the ECML?

*I'll caveat this by saying that I dont either. But from an engineering background and some limited understanding of the railway I can make a reasonable guess...

 

[A60K]

How many extra services are actually required in any case? I certainly didn't notice southbound services at Edinburgh at lunchtime being especially crowded compared to normal.

 

[deltic]

How many extra services are actually required in any case? I certainly didn't notice southbound services at Edinburgh at lunchtime being especially crowded compared to normal.

Virtually none - see earlier post - ie

"Do we really need all this extra capacity - the present service to Scotland could easily carry the majority of air passengers who still want to travel by alternative means - only about 10,000 passengers a day are flying between London and Edinburgh/Glasgow (ignoring transfer passengers) - probably about half of those trips are discretionary that people wont make if they can't fly.

An extra 5,000 passengers travelling each way on the ECML and WCML can readily be accommodated without additional trains being needed"

 

[Mvann]

Virtually none - see earlier post - ie

"Do we really need all this extra capacity - the present service to Scotland could easily carry the majority of air passengers who still want to travel by alternative means - only about 10,000 passengers a day are flying between London and Edinburgh/Glasgow (ignoring transfer passengers) - probably about half of those trips are discretionary that people wont make if they can't fly.

An extra 5,000 passengers travelling each way on the ECML and WCML can readily be accommodated without additional trains being needed"

If that's true, why have all the trains been full to standing.