Plan to remove Croydon rail bottleneck

[hwl]

Upcoming Kings Cross remodelling provides an ideal opportunity to renumber, removing #0 if so desired, as it involves complete resignalling of the area. Incidentally, that could also put the Harry Potter #9 3/4 feature in the concourse in the correct place sequentially across the station, not that such a consideration would contribute much to the business case!

Exactly - P9.75 could then be a retail outlet with a business case if done properly

 

[Grumbler]

Stations where two lines cross but do not physically connect should have platforms numbered 1, 2, 3, etc. on one lecal and 1i, 2i, 3i etc. on the other. Or will passengers find this too complex to understand?

 

[MarkyT]

It wasn't that confusing when Peterborough got it's platforms renumbered so can't see how it can be confusing at this London station....

That was a major layout reconfiguration, was it not, no doubt with local resignalling? The 'hardwiring' of platform numbers in signalling is not just the route indicator displays involved, but all the design details that lie behind it, because every circuit is named. Panel faces, wiring diagrams, control tables etc could need changing even if no new wire is run, and then there are all the downstream information systems such as train reporting from TD and cab-shore radio communications that would need work, all by expensive qualified engineers just so a so called numbering 'anomaly' might be addressed. It's very rarely worth it unless part of a major remodelling.

 

[MarkyT]

... a retail outlet with a business case if done properly

Apparently, there is already a shop next to the embedded trolley:
https://www.kingscross.co.uk/harry-potters-platform-9-34
I doubt many normal punters are concerned much about it's relative position across the station. It's all a long way from Croydon though!

 

[takno]

Stations where two lines cross but do not physically connect should have platforms numbered 1, 2, 3, etc. on one lecal and 1i, 2i, 3i etc. on the other. Or will passengers find this too complex to understand?

Passengers, station staff, drivers, signallers. Pretty much everyone would find this indecipherable or at least massively inconvenient I would have thought

 

[Aictos]

Passengers, station staff, drivers, signallers. Pretty much everyone would find this indecipherable or at least massively inconvenient I would have thought

Take Highbury and Islington or Moorgate they have various lines and they just number them 1, 2, 3 etc as no need to number them 1i etc as that is confusing.

The only time platforms ought to be split into A, B and C is at stations where services share platforms such as Kings Cross, Peterborough, Leeds etc

 

[Lockwood]

Stations where two lines cross but do not physically connect should have platforms numbered 1, 2, 3, etc. on one lecal and 1i, 2i, 3i etc. on the other. Or will passengers find this too complex to understand?

Get real...

 

[InOban]

Did your allusion to the square root of -1 went over the head of at least one poster?

 

[jopsuk]

Did your allusion to the square root of -1 went over the head of at least one poster?

quite possibly an engineer, they often use j instead of i.

 

[takno]

Did your allusion to the square root of -1 went over the head of at least one poster?

Over/under. Don't know about other posters but I find it more entertaining to respond to bad maths jokes like they were serious suggestions.

 

[InOban]

Where's that like button!

 

[vlad]

Stations where two lines cross but do not physically connect should have platforms numbered 1, 2, 3, etc. on one lecal and 1i, 2i, 3i etc. on the other. Or will passengers find this too complex to understand?

Given that 1i, 2i and 3i would be on top of each other I can't see that working.

Platforms 1i and 1+1i, however....

 

[City]

At Norwood Junction, aside from the buildings, there is a lot of space at Platform 1 to either shift the track across or put another track in. I imagine there used to another track there and it was removed; does anyone happen to know the history of the station and why it has the current arrangement?

Hopefully the planned works will bring all platforms to the full 12 car length and provide more opportunities for Thameslink trains to stop.

 

[mmh]

At Norwood Junction, aside from the buildings, there is a lot of space at Platform 1 to either shift the track across or put another track in. I imagine there used to another track there and it was removed; does anyone happen to know the history of the station and why it has the current arrangement?

There was a short north-facing bay platform behind platform 1. It'd be impractical to resurrect it now, it couldn't be connected without reducing the length of platform 1 from 10 car back down to 8, it'd probably only fit 2 or 3 cars and a track layout allowing southbound trains to access it would need conflicting moves across both the southbound and northbound fast lines.

Hopefully the planned works will bring all platforms to the full 12 car length and provide more opportunities for Thameslink trains to stop.

Yes, it would be good to see the platform lengths improved as well as widths! Most Thameslink stoppers are 12 car already though, the bizarre Thameslink timetable has them stopping but 8 cars mostly on through services.

 

[cle]

Is there a future plan for frequency improvements, or is this pure reliability (and maybe some shaving of padding?)

I've suggested it before, but if there is little capacity north of Croydon - one option could be to use a platform full time in East Croydon to terminate trains from the South.

Not everyone is headed to London and it could be a way of improving some of the shuttle services for lines/stations with shorter platforms or lower demand - e.g. sending shorter Reigate and Tonbridge trains to East Croydon (keeping everything long going to London) - it's better than Redhill as a destination, and if 50% are to London Bridge and 50% to Clapham/Victoria - then why not disperse people at EC.

Or adding 2tph to the ELL. Or Cat/Tat additionals. Or terminating the Uckfield diesels there off peak, and possibly better for utilization. Again, many will be jumping out there for Victoria anyway.

Just a suggestion - in this polycentrIc, decentralised era, having non-Central London hubs and termini makes sense. And if a platform can be spared, it might add some capacity without sucking London trains away.

 

[takno]

Is there a future plan for frequency improvements, or is this pure reliability (and maybe some shaving of padding?)

I've suggested it before, but if there is little capacity north of Croydon - one option could be to use a platform full time in East Croydon to terminate trains from the South.

Not everyone is headed to London and it could be a way of improving some of the shuttle services for lines/stations with shorter platforms or lower demand - e.g. sending shorter Reigate and Tonbridge trains to East Croydon (keeping everything long going to London) - it's better than Redhill as a destination, and if 50% are to London Bridge and 50% to Clapham/Victoria - then why not disperse people at EC.

Or adding 2tph to the ELL. Or Cat/Tat additionals. Or terminating the Uckfield diesels there off peak, and possibly better for utilization. Again, many will be jumping out there for Victoria anyway.

Just a suggestion - in this polycentrIc, decentralised era, having non-Central London hubs and termini makes sense. And if a platform can be spared, it might add some capacity without sucking London trains away.

In this what-now era? Croydon has come a long way in the last 20 years, but it's probably still fair to say that more or less nobody wants to end up there from the South. If the Reigate and Tonbridge trains are that much of an issue you'd be better off joining them at Redhill. If they aren't going through to London they might as well just run as a shuttle to Redhill, since everybody would have to change anyway.

 

[swt_passenger]

It isn’t just frequencies through East Croydon though is it? As it showed in the route study As amended in the linked London Reconnections article) there’s also full grade separation of Gloucester Rd junction, which should allow more reliable services through West Croydon, and don’t they intend more services in that direction as well, possibly from the ELL?

 

[Bald Rick]

Is there a future plan for frequency improvements, or is this pure reliability (and maybe some shaving of padding?)

I've suggested it before, but if there is little capacity north of Croydon - one option could be to use a platform full time in East Croydon to terminate trains from the South.

Not everyone is headed to London and it could be a way of improving some of the shuttle services for lines/stations with shorter platforms or lower demand - e.g. sending shorter Reigate and Tonbridge trains to East Croydon (keeping everything long going to London) - it's better than Redhill as a destination, and if 50% are to London Bridge and 50% to Clapham/Victoria - then why not disperse people at EC.

Or adding 2tph to the ELL. Or Cat/Tat additionals. Or terminating the Uckfield diesels there off peak, and possibly better for utilization. Again, many will be jumping out there for Victoria anyway.

Just a suggestion - in this polycentrIc, decentralised era, having non-Central London hubs and termini makes sense. And if a platform can be spared, it might add some capacity without sucking London trains away.

Yes it’s capacity, and yes there is (some) capacity north of Croydon.

 

[snowball]

Press release, supposedly with two videos, though they aren't showing for me:

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds...-to-remove-britains-worst-railway-bottleneck/

Residents across the south east are being reminded to have their say on plans for a major railway upgrade when a public consultation begins on November 5.

Network Rail is urging people to come and learn more about the plans to remove the Croydon bottleneck, which often delays up to 300,000 passengers who travel on the Brighton Main Line and its branch lines, at a series of public consultation events.

The Croydon area is the busiest and most congested part of Britain’s rail network, with 30 per cent more passengers and trains passing through it each day than London Euston and Kings Cross stations combined. This means train punctuality on the Brighton Main Line is the worst of any major route as the bottleneck magnifies the impact of even the most minor incident or delay.

Network Rail’s project manager, Kharon Williams, from Croydon, said: “We’d urge people to come along and make their voice heard when we launch a roadshow of consultation events.

“These proposals are a key part of our long-term strategy to ensure the railway continues to drive economic growth, by providing reliable, fast and frequent services for the growing numbers of people predicted to travel by train.”

VIDEO: A short animation explaining the Croydon bottleneck

VIDEO: Two hour aerial timelapse showing the congestion at the Croydon bottleneck, known as the Selhurst triangle

If approved, the scheme would see a see extra tracks built in the Croydon area, more platforms at an expanded and modernised East Croydon station and a series of new railway flyovers to replace the current congested junction near the station, where lines from the south coast, Sussex and Surrey merge.

John Halsall, Network Rail’s route managing director for the South East, added: “Removing the Croydon bottleneck is the only practical way to provide the step-change in reliability and capacity that passengers and businesses in Sussex so desperately want to see.

“For too long, train performance on the Brighton Main Line has been below the level that commuters and other passengers expect and deserve. While a number of factors have contributed to these issues in recent years, the basic layout of our railway through the Croydon area and the bottleneck it creates means reliability won’t ever improve to acceptable levels without significant changes.

“We want as many people as possible to take part in this consultation, either online or at one of our events, so we can make sure our proposal delivers a genuine transformation in rail services for passengers, businesses and communities in one of the most economically important parts of the country.”

Angie Doll, Passenger Services Director for Southern and Gatwick Express, added: “Punctuality on Southern was, recently, the best it had been for five years and services on Thameslink are back on track too. However, a major investment of this scale is vital to improve services further for passengers and to future-proof this most-congested route.”

A six-week public consultation runs from 5 November to 17 December 2018 to give passengers, businesses and members of the public the opportunity to have their say.

They can also do so online at networkrail.co.uk/croydon or by completing a questionnaire which will be handed out at stations along the Brighton Main Line including Brighton, Gatwick Airport, East Croydon, London Bridge and London Victoria.

Network Rail will also be hosting a series of consultation events at locations across the Croydon area from 6-22 November to enable the local community to view the proposals and talk to the project team.

Location

Date & time

East Croydon URC Church:
Addiscombe Grove, CR0 5LP

6 November 16:00 – 20:00
13 November 16:00 – 20:00

Croydon Neighbourhood Care Association:
Freemasons Road, CR0 6PD

7 November 12:00 – 16:00
14 November 16:00 – 20:00

The Woodside Academy:
Morland Road, CR0 6NF

8 November 17:00 – 21:00
10 November 12:00- 16:00

St. Mary’s Catholic High School:
Woburn Rd, CR9 2EE

15 November 17:00 – 21:00

Stanley Halls:
12 South Norwood Hill SE25 6AB

19 November 13:30 – 17:30

Croydon & District Masonic Hall:
73 Oakfield Rd, CR0 2UX

12 November 16:00 – 20:00
21 November 16:00 – 20:00

Brit School:
60 The Crescent CR0 2HN

22 November 13:00 – 17:00

 

[Meerkat]

Videos work for me on Windows but not Apple

 

[snowball]

Videos work for me on Windows but not Apple

I just see blank space in the press release when I look on my (Windows) system, whether I use Firefox or Microsoft Edge. I don't even get as far as seeing something that looks like a non-working video.

 

[Meerkat]

I am a caveman on IE!

 

[hwl]

I get nothing on IE, edge, Chrome or Firefox

 

[InOban]

Worked fine on my android tablet.

 

[robvulpes]

I couldn't get them directly (MS Edge and Chrome tried) but I was able to watch presumably the same videos from this indirect link https://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/news/croydon-news/new-videos-explain-east-croydon-2163406

 

[cle]

In this what-now era? Croydon has come a long way in the last 20 years, but it's probably still fair to say that more or less nobody wants to end up there from the South. If the Reigate and Tonbridge trains are that much of an issue you'd be better off joining them at Redhill. If they aren't going through to London they might as well just run as a shuttle to Redhill, since everybody would have to change anyway.

Everyone from Reigate, Uckfield and Edenbridge had to change for Victoria anyway. If there is no capacity north, or trains are too short to deserve it, and there is some spare capacity at East Croydon, I see no reason why trains couldn't end there from the south.

It's a big interchange (WA trains empty at Stratford) - and employment/shopping place. Plus very populous, and so reverse commuting might be popular too. Or shuttles to improve stopping patterns from further afield (e.g. Purley/Coulsdon South etc on Horsham services) - 22-24m users annually, plus 6m interchanging, it's busier than most termini.

I'm a Londoner, and most things do end there - but I appreciate the polycentric way of things these days. Tokyo does this very well, and has very decentralised employment and activity overall.

 

[RichardN]

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...-area-remodelling-scheme/#public-consultation

I'm very underwhelmed with the level of detail (unless I'm missing something..)

 

[JonathanH]

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...-area-remodelling-scheme/#public-consultation

I'm very underwhelmed with the level of detail (unless I'm missing something..)

Who drew their map? At least they could show the junctions for Tonbridge and Guildford in the same place and the one for Horsham south of Gatwick Airport.

Oh, and it clearly can't address any of the flat junctions at South Croydon, Purley, Stoats Nest, Redhill, Earlswood, Gatwick, Tinsley Green, Balcombe Tunnel, Keymer or Preston Park so trains from the south will still present late.

Is the point that this is a consultation for locals about the works and how they will affect them rather than the travelling public. Presumably the plans about timeline, routes through the work don't actually need consultation, just the way in which materials will be brought in and hours of work.

 

[Dr_Paul]

From the Network Rail site: 'Two hour aerial timelapse showing the congestion at the Croydon bottleneck, known as the Selhurst triangle.' — I thought it was called the 'Selhurst Tangle'.

 

[MarkyT]

There's a new London Reconnections article article covering this subject, including a diagram capturing the latest state of layout development:
https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/a-study-in-sussex-part-14-the-beginnings-of-big-changes/

A study in Sussex part 14: The beginnings of big changes
With consultation on the much-discussed improvements at East Croydon and Windmill Bridge opened on November 5th 2018, we look briefly at what is being put forward and take the opportunity to provide an update for the plans for the Brighton Main Line...