Plaid pledges more Wales electrfication

[Gareth Marston]

Ms Davies pledged to speed up journey times on trains, creating fast and reliable ways to travel. Her party would plan for an electrified rail network not just through to Swansea, but also in the Valleys and across the North Wales coast.

Read More http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...sembly-campaign-91466-28474090/#ixzz1IqqQqIZo

Forum Members might like to see more detail, in particular for the "North Wales Coast" as all the services on it run from parts of England that are not electrified to get on to it.

Plaid have overseen a massive increase in North to South trains which will have to be diesel powered between Chester and Newport. Chester to Manchester via Warrington isn't electrified and I doubt the bidders for the WCML are planning on anything but Voyagers to North Wales. I wonder if Plaid knows any of this?

Sounds like an IEP Bi-mode Salesman's dream.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Warrington to Newton-le-Willows is already electrified and Newton-le-Willows to Manchester will soon be as part of the Chat Moss scheme, leaving only Chester - Warrington to do for Manchester trains to go electric. Virgin would only need Chester-Crewe to be done for electrics from London.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As far as I know, the only person that can commit major rail infrastructure spend in Wales is Philip Hammond as (UK) Minister of Transport. Wales can lobby but otherwise can fund only local schemes. Plaid can promise what it likes but Hammond (and Osborne) will determine the extent of electrification in England and Wales. I should think the North Wales coast figures lower on their priority list than say Midland, cross-Pennine and Yorkshire schemes.

I would also imagine no new schemes will be announced until Network Rail have started rolling out the current schemes and demonstrated that unit costs are reducing. If Cardiff-Swansea isn't viable then surely Crewe-Holyhead isn't either.

 

[CardiffKid]

And how on earth are Plaid proposing to pay for the north Wales line to be electrified? Four years ago they promised to give every school kid a laptop and guess what - there wasn't and still isn't any money for it

 

[merlodlliw]

Muz Davies is Plaids deputy housing's Minister,so an expert on Rail infrastructure,

Its not going to happen, from what will be the next Plaid transport Ministers
vision, amazing North Wales is even mentioned by her.



Bob

 

[mumrar]

Oh great, another expensive idea from a devolved country spending some of the tax from the country they want to be disasocciated with. Between free Scottish Uni, free Scottish prescriptions and all the Scottish re-opened routes, I can't help feeling these devolved parliaments like having cake and eating it!

 

[junglejames]

Oh great, another expensive idea from a devolved country spending some of the tax from the country they want to be disasocciated with. Between free Scottish Uni, free Scottish prescriptions and all the Scottish re-opened routes, I can't help feeling these devolved parliaments like having cake and eating it!

Ouch. Very true, if not a little harsh.
I dont mind them spending the money they get in these ways (Scotland seems to do well with it), as long as they dont then go round asking for total seperation and all that. Luckily most of the Scots have come to realise that Salmonds idea of total seperation from England would not work.

Its plainly obvious this latest Plaid plan is just spouted out to get them voted in. They know it will never happen.

 

[tbtc]

Ouch. Very true, if not a little harsh.
I dont mind them spending the money they get in these ways (Scotland seems to do well with it), as long as they dont then go round asking for total seperation and all that. Luckily most of the Scots have come to realise that Salmonds idea of total seperation from England would not work.

Its plainly obvious this latest Plaid plan is just spouted out to get them voted in. They know it will never happen.

In fairness, Scotland could be (fairly) independent in railway terms. The Welsh railways are nothing like this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Plaid have overseen a massive increase in North to South trains which will have to be diesel powered between Chester and Newport. Chester to Manchester via Warrington isn't electrified and I doubt the bidders for the WCML are planning on anything but Voyagers to North Wales. I wonder if Plaid knows any of this?

Sounds like an IEP Bi-mode Salesman's dream.

Agreed. Electrification needs to be organised along operational practices. No point in doing the Coast line unless you also do Chester - Warrington, Chester - Crewe, maybe even the Marshes line too...

 

[tirphil]

Oh great, another expensive idea from a devolved country spending some of the tax from the country they want to be disasocciated with. Between free Scottish Uni, free Scottish prescriptions and all the Scottish re-opened routes, I can't help feeling these devolved parliaments like having cake and eating it!

If Scotland and Wales are such an economic burden on England and English taxpayers why do Conservative and Labour argue against them going there own way. Surely jettisonning the Celtic nations would be a vote winner in England?

 

[northwichcat]

If Scotland and Wales are such an economic burden on England and English taxpayers why do Conservative and Labour argue against them going there own way. Surely jettisonning the Celtic nations would be a vote winner in England?

England would be less of a 'power' in both the EU and Worldwide than the UK is and that's certainly the argument Gordon Brown used numerous times.

 

[merlodlliw]

If Scotland and Wales are such an economic burden on England and English taxpayers why do Conservative and Labour argue against them going there own way. Surely jettisonning the Celtic nations would be a vote winner in England?

The majority of us Welsh do not want independence ,but wish to remain part of the UK.


Bob

 

[mumrar]

The majority of us Welsh do not want independence ,but wish to remain part of the UK.


Bob

I don't dispute that, but using the example of Scotland and all the free things English MPs can't vote on, it's hardly a fair system in place. If you're an English student you pay for uni, you pay for any prescriptions and you have to bus or cycle there because the railway was shut. It's possible that none of those could apply to a Scottish student.

 

[Dewedin]

And? It's news that Scotland decides on what things to spend its budget?

 

[mumrar]

And? It's news that Scotland decides on what things to spend its budget?

Well unless they're making drastic cutbacks elsewhere, like England is WITHOUT having all that free stuff, then obviously too much is being sent in to that budget.

 

[jones_bangor]

I don't dispute that, but using the example of Scotland and all the free things English MPs can't vote on, it's hardly a fair system in place. If you're an English student you pay for uni, you pay for any prescriptions and you have to bus or cycle there because the railway was shut. It's possible that none of those could apply to a Scottish student.

England did have the opportunity for devolution under the last Labour government, and turned it down. I agree that it was a pretty rubbish deal on offer, but nevertheless....

I do wonder whether EU funding could help electrify Crewe to Holyhead, given that it is a major rail route for passengers to and from Ireland.

I also understand that Network Rail are against electrifying this route as it's "too close to the sea"?

 

[tbtc]

I also understand that Network Rail are against electrifying this route as it's "too close to the sea"?

Evidence for this?

Bearing in mind the coastal sections of railway which are electrified (e.g. ECML north of Berwick)

 

[jones_bangor]

Evidence for this?

Bearing in mind the coastal sections of railway which are electrified (e.g. ECML north of Berwick)

This is what Network Rail told the MP for Caernarfon as a reason for not electrifying. The words "fobbed off" and "London centric" come to mind.

 

[tbtc]

This is what Network Rail told the MP for Caernarfon as a reason for not electrifying. The words "fobbed off" and "London centric" come to mind.

He/She should have a word with the MPs for costal towns like Largs in that case.

Then again, if a North Wales MP can be fobbed off with a spurious argument like this then that doesn't encourage me that any North Wales representation on the WAG Transport Committee would make any realistic difference...

 

[lancastrian]

I do wonder whether EU funding could help electrify Crewe to Holyhead, given that it is a major rail route for passengers to and from Ireland.

Typical, to talk abut EU Funding, the EU has no money of its own, any more than the UK has money of its own. It all comes from our Taxes. Its money taken from us in the first place in both the UK & EU that they are spending, although it would be nice to see more of the money we usually waste in the EU actually return to us and used for a proper purpose.

 

[Welshman]

He/She should have a word with the MPs for costal towns like Largs in that case.

Then again, if a North Wales MP can be fobbed off with a spurious argument like this then that doesn't encourage me that any North Wales representation on the WAG Transport Committee would make any realistic difference...

There are some sensible, rational people in N Wales!!
But they're not MPs.

 

[tbtc]

There are some sensible, rational people in N Wales!!
But they're not MPs.

Agreed on both counts

 

[merlodlliw]

This is what Network Rail told the MP for Caernarfon as a reason for not electrifying. The words "fobbed off" and "London centric" come to mind.

If NR told the M.P of the sea effect,and he did not challenge the statement,it just proves how little some Politicians understanding of rail infrastructure is.

Little wonder some are appointed onto Committees with faces that fit.

Have a look on the web at

House of Commons
Welsh Affairs Committee
The Provision of Rail
Services in Wales
Third Report of Session 2003–04
Report, together with formal minutes, oral and
written evidence



Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

Alas that is the big issue with rail so linked in to Political machinery post privatisation the knowledge from Politicians is so often woefully lacking that they cant challenge anything spurious that's put in front of them.

 

[merlodlliw]

Alas that is the big issue with rail so linked in to Political machinery post privatisation the knowledge from Politicians is so often woefully lacking that they cant challenge anything spurious that's put in front of them.

Agree fully, and Network Rail know this . Just met a colleague off the Birmingham Holyhead at WXM around 1.15p.m. Two coach 158, standing room only from Shrewsbury said my friend, Id guess 50 or so got off with a similar number boarding.


Bob

 

[IanXC]

England did have the opportunity for devolution under the last Labour government, and turned it down. I agree that it was a pretty rubbish deal on offer, but nevertheless....

The North East region was given the opportunity for devolution. After that went against the idea the government of the day decided against giving any other park of England the option.

 

[WatcherZero]

There was also a mandatory consultation on elected mayors last year where in Greater manchester at least 90%-99% responsded negativley correctly saying there was no point if they had no new powers, hasnt stopped the new government however which will force elected mayors on 12 cities and then hold referendums on whether they people want them or not after theyve been in place a year. Their doing the same thing with elected police commisioners, paying someone £100,000 a year for what a councillor used to do for £30k! Thats why the person most likely to win in GM is the Cllr who was doing the job before whose running on a no interference in polic work and abolish the post platform.

Anyway back on topic I have heard that argument against electrifying on the coast made in respect of third rail before (if salt water waves which conduct electricity flood the rails and cause shorting) but ive never heard it said about OHLE before.

 

[merlodlliw]

Anyway back on topic I have heard that argument against electrifying on the coast made in respect of third rail before (if salt water waves which conduct electricity flood the rails and cause shorting) but ive never heard it said about OHLE before.[/QUOTE]

The average M.P or assembly Member would not have a clue on your mention above, thats why NR & its like get away with unchallenged spurious statements.

Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

Anyway back on topic I have heard that argument against electrifying on the coast made in respect of third rail before (if salt water waves which conduct electricity flood the rails and cause shorting) but ive never heard it said about OHLE before.

The average M.P or assembly Member would not have a clue on your mention above, thats why NR & its like get away with unchallenged spurious statements.

Bob[/QUOTE]


My local MP thinks IEP bi-mode is perfectly sensible and turning on the underfloor extra weight diesel engine in Cardiff is all part of normal railway operation!

 

[BestWestern]

My local MP thinks IEP bi-mode is perfectly sensible and turning on the underfloor extra weight diesel engine in Cardiff is all part of normal railway operation!

It's a great shame that Hammond also, presumably, thinks this is sensible. Wire all the way to Cardiff but don't bother doing the last stretch down the road to Swansea, pointlessly dragging all those engines for most of the journey; brilliant!

I suppose it's easy to see why the argument was made for electrifying the Cardiff suburban network as a bolt-on to the IEP upgrade, but another well-meaning yet highly unlikely project I'd think. If the money was available it's probably reasonable to assume they'd instead send the wires through to Swansea and cut out some considerable IEP bi-mode rolling stock costs at the same time.

 

[tbtc]

It's a great shame that Hammond also, presumably, thinks this is sensible. Wire all the way to Cardiff but don't bother doing the last stretch down the road to Swansea, pointlessly dragging all those engines for most of the journey; brilliant!

I suppose it's easy to see why the argument was made for electrifying the Cardiff suburban network as a bolt-on to the IEP upgrade, but another well-meaning yet highly unlikely project I'd think. If the money was available it's probably reasonable to assume they'd instead send the wires through to Swansea and cut out some considerable IEP bi-mode rolling stock costs at the same time.

I see what you are saying, but part of the problem is that the London services don't all stop at Swansea, and stopping the wires there would lead to problems in west Wales (do places like Carmarthen lose their London links? do we go to the trouble of attaching 67s?)

At least with the Valley Lines you have a fairly self contained set of lines where there wouldn't be the need for IEP/ diesels under wires etc.