PKPIC orders 38 Push-pull trains

[Stephen Lee]

[PL] 38 push-pull trains for PKP Intercity: These are their specifications - Railcolor News

PKP Intercity recently revealed the details of one of its largest passenger fleet orders. The carrier wants to buy 38 push-pull trainsets of regular and double-decker cars. The tender also […]

railcolornews.com

As I am not registered, I am unable to look at the specifications. Can anyone tell me about it?

 

[Cloud Strife]

Strange, I haven't seen this reported in Polish anywhere.

Either way, it's just another sticking plaster on the huge problems that PKP Intercity has.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Either way, it's just another sticking plaster on the huge problems that PKP Intercity has.

EU funded I believe. What are those problems?

They look nasty, though. Double deck is not suitable for long distance operation, though I suppose they'll be better than compartments of 8!

 

[Cloud Strife]

What are those problems?

Well, first and foremost: timetabling.

The trains simply aren't run in any logical or sensible way, and I can give an example: it's impossible to return from Warsaw to Wrocław at night after 17:08 (EIP - Pendolino). On the other hand, there's a IC departure to Poznań at 19:22. There are so many pathologies in the timetabling that it's hard to know where to start.

Then there's the IC trains themselves. The overcrowding is unbearable at times, yet PKP IC stubbornly refuses to implement a reservation-only requirement during peak times. Yet, PKP IC is going towards a policy of having fixed formation trains, meaning that they're actually reducing the flexibility of the network. The specific nature of Polish tourism means that routes towards the seaside will be packed in summer, and routes towards the mountains will be packed in winter. Fixed formation trains aren't really a good option in this context, because for instance, you'll want to deploy more carriages on Warsaw-Wrocław-Jelenia Góra-Szklarska Poręba in winter, but then you don't need so many in the summer months.

Then there's my favourite absurdity in PL: above 130km/h, you either need ETCS or the cab must be double manned. PKP Intercity have shown absolutely no will to get this changed, even though it means that the new Poznań-Wrocław line runs at 130km/h rather than 160km/h despite the line and the trains being capable of it. It is unbelievably stupid on so many levels, especially as 160km/h running from Poznań-Leszno-Wrocław would be a convincing alternative to the car.

There are also issues with train fares themselves. PKP Intercity introduced a new system based on yield management, but the problem is that it's now possible for students to purchase tickets in advance for as little as 14.50PLN (about 3 quid) for Poznań-Wrocław journeys. The 50% discount for students is a political bribe, but again, there's no will to restrict the sale of such tickets at the busiest times (for instance, Friday afternoons away from major cities, Sunday afternoons towards major cities).

Unfortunately, PKP Intercity is run very much on the basis of politics and not on commercial reality. The end result is that you end up with things like sleeper trains taking ridiculous routes through the country at night, because local politicians need/demand direct sleeper train access to tourist destinations so they can brag about it.

 

[43096]

Strange, I haven't seen this reported in Polish anywhere.

Either way, it's just another sticking plaster on the huge problems that PKP Intercity has.

It’s the specifications of the tender that are being quoted, no order has been placed yet.

They look nasty, though. Double deck is not suitable for long distance operation, though I suppose they'll be better than compartments of 8!

You’d best let SNCF know that almost the entire TGV fleet isn’t suitable for the duties they perform.

 

[Austriantrain]

You’d best let SNCF know that almost the entire TGV fleet isn’t suitable for the duties they perform.

I have just been to Switzerland, travelled again on the IC2000 cars and for the first time on the Bombardier Twindexx RABe 502 (both in second class), and while these last seem to very problematic on a technical level, I find both very adequate for long-distance travel and while Swiss domestic journeys are short, I would happily travel on both of them on a long-distance 7 hour run in Austria.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I barely find the IC2000s suitable for a one hour regional express. Seat width and legroom is poor and windows small. Definitely a DoSto designed by an accountant. By contrast I find some of the more recent DB kit OK, though not really any better than OK.

 

[Cloud Strife]

It’s the specifications of the tender that are being quoted, no order has been placed yet.

That probably means they're planning to announce an order as part of the next election campaign.

They look nasty, though. Double deck is not suitable for long distance operation, though I suppose they'll be better than compartments of 8!

They might come in useful on certain routes. Warsaw-Kraków-Zakopane comes to mind, or Warsaw to Kołobrzeg via the Tri-Cities. The devil is in the detail, but if they were high capacity and reservation-only, they could work reasonably well.

 

[Austriantrain]

I barely find the IC2000s suitable for a one hour regional express. Seat width and legroom is poor and windows small. Definitely a DoSto designed by an accountant.

We have to disagree then.

In any case it’s moot, their capacity is certainly needed and I am quite sure the Swiss prefer a slightly less comfortable seat to no seat at all. Mind, the typical journey in Switzerland is very short.

I would certainly welcome double-deck long-distance stock at ÖBB if it meant there would be more capacity, at least on the more Interregio-like services.

To return on thread, I can certainly understand the wish for higher-capacity stock on some Polish routes. I cannot really judge on the necessity of compulsory reservation, but find that on this issue, those rail companies that do not want it usually know what they are doing.

 

[XAM2175]

You’d best let SNCF know that almost the entire TGV fleet isn’t suitable for the duties they perform.

I barely find the IC2000s suitable for a one hour regional express. Seat width and legroom is poor and windows small. Definitely a DoSto designed by an accountant. By contrast I find some of the more recent DB kit OK, though not really any better than OK.

It can be hit and miss, I think. The IC2000 upper decks are a bit too cozy for my liking in second class, but not unpleasantly so, and it's not somewhere you're going to be spending hours and hours. The TGV Duplex, on the other hand, has been eminently comfortable both times I ridden on.

By contrast, DB's using the Bombardier commuter dostos as the stock for IC2 services is really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

As ever it'll be down to design and fitout and I'm happy to reserve my judgement until then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It can be hit and miss, I think. The IC2000 upper decks are a bit too cozy for my liking in second class, but not unpleasantly so

I physically can't put the armrest down, and my knees are about 2/3 of the way across the bay. I'd rather a 350/2, at least those have big windows!

I would say that First Class in the IC2000 sets is an acceptable (not special, just acceptable) Standard class.

The TGV Duplex, on the other hand, has been eminently comfortable both times I ridden on.

I've not done a TGV Duplex, though I don't like TGVs generally (hugely inferior to the Siemens Velaro) and they look cramped from the pictures.

By contrast, DB's using the Bombardier commuter dostos as the stock for IC2 services is really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

To be honest I think they're better than the IC2000 in every possible way, other than that you need to go down and back up to move between vehicles. Bigger windows, more space and better seats. I've been on the regional version and put it in the "the only decent double decker I've ridden so far" category.

To be fair the IC2 routes aren't even proper long distance, they're more similar to the Swiss routes (they'd be IRs if DB hadn't binned that category), so the IC2000 is probably a fair comparison.

As ever it'll be down to design and fitout and I'm happy to reserve my judgement until then.

To an extent - a DoSto will always have inferior luggage space due to the lack of height for overheads, and the accountants will always be there muttering about wanting twice the seating capacity when about 1.4 times a 2+2 layout for regional (almost no uplift at all if going 3+2 single deck to 2+2 DoSto) and about 1.2 to 1.3 times for IC is the best you can achieve without reducing comfort).

 

[XAM2175]

I physically can't put the armrest down, and my knees are about 2/3 of the way across the bay. I'd rather a 350/2, at least those have big windows!

I'm quite wide myself - but I suspect nowhere near as tall as you - so obviously yes my opinion would be different in times of higher loading!

I've not done a TGV Duplex, though I don't like TGVs generally (hugely inferior to the Siemens Velaro) and they look cramped from the pictures.

I found first to be very pleasant (again accepting limitations on luggage space etc) and, to their rare credit, Alstom have actually fitted upper deck windows that are taller than those downstairs.

To be honest I think they're better than the IC2000 in every possible way, other than that you need to go down and back up to move between vehicles. Bigger windows, more space and better seats. I've been on the regional version and put it in the "the only decent double decker I've ridden so far" category.

They fail massively for me because in airline seats the bloody rubbish bin is exactly where my kneecap wants to be. Remove that and I'd be prepared to upgrade them considerably!
(especially compared to the distressingly claustrophobic Skoda version)

To an extent - a DoSto will always have inferior luggage space due to the lack of height for overheads, and the accountants will always be there muttering about wanting twice the seating capacity when about 1.4 times a 2+2 layout for regional (almost no uplift at all if going 3+2 single deck to 2+2 DoSto) and about 1.2 to 1.3 times for IC is the best you can achieve without reducing comfort).

I don't disagree with you; for genuine long-distance traffic they very very rarely suffice. For shorter domestic use, in what might be closer to the IR category than IC, I'm still prepared to allow well-meaning attempts at getting the layout right.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They fail massively for me because in airline seats the bloody rubbish bin is exactly where my kneecap wants to be.

The stupid mini bins blight most European stock, to be fair. They really should, er, bin them in favour of bigger ones in the vestibule.

I don't disagree with you; for genuine long-distance traffic they very very rarely suffice. For shorter domestic use, in what might be closer to the IR category than IC, I'm still prepared to allow well-meaning attempts at getting the layout right.

The IC2 routes are a bit more like IR routes than IC ones - they previously were IR routes, I believe. But DB has discontinued that category, the rare "IRE" is a regional category so not the same and so not applicable here.

 

[duesselmartin]

I found the TGV Duplex to Brest rather pleasant. It was Premiere class upper level.

As to the arguenents of seat style and bins, that is an issue with all stock nowadays and could be solved on the digital drawing bord.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not seat style, it's cramming seats in to satisfy bean counters.

 

[Austriantrain]

It's not seat style, it's cramming seats in to satisfy bean counters.

Often, yes. In other cases, it’s simply needed to being able to accommodate demand. The IC2000 are a good example for this.

 

[Cloud Strife]

To return on thread, I can certainly understand the wish for higher-capacity stock on some Polish routes. I cannot really judge on the necessity of compulsory reservation, but find that on this issue, those rail companies that do not want it usually know what they are doing.

Unfortunately, it's a political problem. The IC class routes are the successor of the so-called "fast" trains (pospieszny) that used to be operated by Przewozy Regionalne before 2009, which was as a kind of 'long distance for all' type of operation. The carriages were usually ancient and horrible, but there was a principle that people could be packed into them because the tickets were cheap. This transformed eventually into the TLK (older stock) and IC (newer stock) classes, but the problem was that the fares didn't change. The end result is that people view travelling on TLK and IC lines as being some kind of 'right', and no politician will change this.

The problem is that it ends up being the case that these new trains are overcrowded and uncomfortable despite being modernised.

 

[Austriantrain]

Unfortunately, it's a political problem. The IC class routes are the successor of the so-called "fast" trains (pospieszny) that used to be operated by Przewozy Regionalne before 2009, which was as a kind of 'long distance for all' type of operation. The carriages were usually ancient and horrible, but there was a principle that people could be packed into them because the tickets were cheap. This transformed eventually into the TLK (older stock) and IC (newer stock) classes, but the problem was that the fares didn't change. The end result is that people view travelling on TLK and IC lines as being some kind of 'right', and no politician will change this.

The problem is that it ends up being the case that these new trains are overcrowded and uncomfortable despite being modernised.

The obvious answer, before introducing compulsory reservation, would be to increase the number of trains. That is something that e.g. the Swiss can’t do because infrastructure is fully used (hence the double-deck stock, but they still don’t have compulsory reservation and never will), but the PKP timetable doesn’t strike me as particularly dense.