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Pilot only planes

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MCR247

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The only time you hear from a customer is when they're usually complaining because they want to break our rules. Why can't I get a refund for my non-refundable ticket? Bugger off

So true, works with the railways too :)
 

blackfive460

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If flying a plane is so simple and mainly automated nowadays why bother with a pilot at all?
The first passenger on board gets to drive, 25% discount if you've got MS Flight Sim experience!
 

Clip

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Ryanair's cheif executive, who could be called a maverick or a businessman, has come up with a new plan; pilot only planes. He basically suggested to the media that planes only need one pilot. Some links.

http://www.irishcentral.com/travel/Ryanair-chief-wants-only-one-pilot-on-flights-102212779.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/t...e-allowed-to-land-planes-in-an-emergency.html


Why not. it only needs one pilot. if its gonna crash then crash it will
 

Vulcan

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Last time I flew we were delayed by 2 hours because of fog at Exeter airport. If man can build a combine harvester that guides itself along the field to within 3 inches of the edge of the crop, why can we not invent a plane that can go along a great big runway in the fog? I know this isn't exactly on topic, but the above post about not needing a pilot at all got me thinking.
 

mickey

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Last time I flew we were delayed by 2 hours because of fog at Exeter airport. If man can build a combine harvester that guides itself along the field to within 3 inches of the edge of the crop, why can we not invent a plane that can go along a great big runway in the fog? I know this isn't exactly on topic, but the above post about not needing a pilot at all got me thinking.

Modern aeroplanes can land in thick fog as long as the pilot lets the computer do it and the airport is enabled with the highest category of ILS - I'm not sure whether Exeter has this but I doubt it really. Take offs are another matter as there does need to be a minimum acceptable level of visibility. It's certainly not as simple though as combine harvesters.
 

Vulcan

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But why? I mean, planes must have some pretty accurate compass on them, so they should be able to know when they are pointing in the right direction at the end of the runway without physically seeing it. Then all thats needed is a system to make sure the runway is clear. I'd have thought a series of parking sensor type things along each side of the runway would be capable of this. Then all the pilot needs is the 'runway clear' from air traffic control, check the compass to make sure he's pointing the right way, then open the taps and pull up. Simples?
 

ralphchadkirk

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But why? I mean, planes must have some pretty accurate compass on them, so they should be able to know when they are pointing in the right direction at the end of the runway without physically seeing it. Then all thats needed is a system to make sure the runway is clear. I'd have thought a series of parking sensor type things along each side of the runway would be capable of this. Then all the pilot needs is the 'runway clear' from air traffic control, check the compass to make sure he's pointing the right way, then open the taps and pull up. Simples?

Location? It's all very well pointing the right way, but you could still be miles off the runway.
 

ivanhoe

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The strange thing about this thread is that we are talking about doing away with with the First Officer. Do we need train drivers? Discuss!
 

Clip

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But why? I mean, planes must have some pretty accurate compass on them, so they should be able to know when they are pointing in the right direction at the end of the runway without physically seeing it. Then all thats needed is a system to make sure the runway is clear. I'd have thought a series of parking sensor type things along each side of the runway would be capable of this. Then all the pilot needs is the 'runway clear' from air traffic control, check the compass to make sure he's pointing the right way, then open the taps and pull up. Simples?


Thats exactly what they do..

Without the need to quote horrible adverts
 

jon0844

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I doubt many airports that Ryanair fly to have the equipment for automated landings, but I do accept that one pilot is probably fine for most situations. However, I doubt passengers will accept it and many would be too scared - even if they're totally in the wrong. I doubt most people are scared to drive, even if statistically they're at much greater risk, but they do get rather frightened when flying because of the feeling that anything will mean death. In a car, you might just be able to do something yourself.

The fact is, in an emergency, two pilots are essential and you may not get a member of cabin crew into the cabin quick enough. Not only that, but they'll only be given the most basic of training anyway - they simply couldn't have the flight time and experience to do anything major.

And, not all serious incidents result in losing the plane completely and everyone dying on board, so I think it's fair to say that you want to at least give the 200-300 passengers flying a fighting chance. Could a single pilot do all the procedures to deal with an emergency?

I am not sure this idea was actually serious, although with Ryanair it's quite likely it was, but Ryanair has a good knack of announcing silly things like this to keep the press from noticing other changes. Create a load of controversy over this, while slipping out the announcement that all passengers are now going to be charged £5 to walk up the steps to board or something.
 

mickey

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Agreed. Probably the first time I've done so with you!

(Though on a point of information, Ryanair planes have 189 passenger seats and 6 crew, so a maximum ever of 195 SOB.)
 

jon0844

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Maybe they can afford to lose a plane or two then!

One thing I would say about Ryanair though, is Michael O'Leary has said many times that he'll never cut back on maintenance and risk safety.
 

gordonthemoron

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however, would the CAA permit passenger planes to fly with only one pilot? This all sounds like another of O'Leary's publicity stunts
 

jon0844

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however, would the CAA permit passenger planes to fly with only one pilot? This all sounds like another of O'Leary's publicity stunts

I don't think so, and I think the controversial story was/is a smokescreen for other changes that will be snuck through.

Wasn't the check-in charge introduced while everyone was talking about paying to use the toilets?

If there was ever anyone that knew how to 'bury bad news', I'd say Michael O'Leary was up near the top.
 

Clip

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Sorry - typo, I only just noticed that. Then how come they can't take off in fog?

They can. Its just deemed safer if they do not. They managed to fly through thunderstorms and fog when in the air so its no different when taking off.
 

Vulcan

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They can. Its just deemed safer if they do not. They managed to fly through thunderstorms and fog when in the air so its no different when taking off.

I knew it was just a ploy for the trolley to sell more cups of tea! Damn you Flybe! :-x
 

Clip

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I knew it was just a ploy for the trolley to sell more cups of tea! Damn you Flybe! :-x

Of course.. everything costs when you fly short haul.. and the tea is no bloody good either!!
 

Peter Mugridge

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The fact is, in an emergency, two pilots are essential and you may not get a member of cabin crew into the cabin quick enough. Not only that, but they'll only be given the most basic of training anyway - they simply couldn't have the flight time and experience to do anything major.

And, not all serious incidents result in losing the plane completely and everyone dying on board, so I think it's fair to say that you want to at least give the 200-300 passengers flying a fighting chance. Could a single pilot do all the procedures to deal with an emergency?

For the first point, there is the additional problem of how would they get them into the cockpit in the first place now that they all have re-inforced doors with internal locks?

For the second, you are absolutely correct - one pilot could not cope with the workload in the time available to react when things go wrong. If you look at the 777 that came down at Heathrow in January 2008, both crew were vital.

The Captain adjusted the flaps setting to gain extra lift, without which at best it would have ploughed into the approach lights and the perimeter fence and at worst it would have come down on Hatton Cross. He also made the emergency calls to air traffic control and to the cabin, although the cabin system failed to operate.

The First officer - who had control for the whole approach and therefore retained control when the engines cut out - handled the stability of the aircraft.

Neither man could have done both tasks. There was only just over 30 seconds between the engines cutting and the impact. Had this flight been single manned it is unlikely that it would have made a safe crash landing.
 

Vulcan

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Of course.. everything costs when you fly short haul.. and the tea is no bloody good either!!

Exactly! £1.60 for a tin of Irn Bru. I knew it wouldn't be a bottle, but it showed up as one of those tiny 'fun sized' tinlets. Theres more liquid in a tin of Humbrol!
 

mickey

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For the first point, there is the additional problem of how would they get them into the cockpit in the first place now that they all have re-inforced doors with internal locks?

Because the captain can still get out and let him/her in!
 

Peter Mugridge

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And if the Captain collapses? What happens then?

It has happened on several occasions on airliners in recent years, so they have to allow for the possibility of it.
 

jimrbrobinson

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If I was a flight attendant and they asked me to undertake training to be able to land the plane in an emergency (which would essentially involve having to know how to pretty much fly the darned thing anyway) then my response would be "pay me a pilot's wage or bugger off." And yes, there are two g's in 'bugger off'. :D

Seriously, sounds all well and good if the pilot become incapacitated on a direct line of approach to the runway in perfect conditions and visibility. However, if they're going to train a flight attendant to adjust for wind, make course corrections, set up the approach, follow the glidepath, adjust trim tabs, etc. etc. then they're pretty well teaching them to fly, in which case give them a pilot's licence, and pay them as such. Or, maybe, get rid of a flight attendant and when not needed on the flight deck the co-pilot can go out the back and serve the drinks!
 

flymo

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Isn't there some legislation somewhere saying that there must be 1 cabin crew member for every 50 seats on board the aircraft? That would explain why Ryanair have 4 cabin crew and 2 flight crew. If one of the cabin crew was called in to land the plane then that would leave the cabin understaffed with cabin crew in an emergency. For many reasons this will not fly. O Leary has been watching too much TV.

It's when things go wrong that pilots really earn their cash and if something does go wrong I want 2 people up at the pointy end with every single second of their experience with them, not a cabin crew member with 20 minutes of flight sim experience.

There are some wonderful blogs from airline pilots about their jobs which make for fascinating reading.
 
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