Picking up tickets late

[radamfi]

Suppose you buy a ticket online for collection at a station. If you, for example, buy an Off Peak Return outward 6 June and return within a month, can you still pick up the ticket on, say, 15 June and use the return portion?

 

[rail-britain]

You will still be able to collect it, but I don't think it will be valid for travel
You need to use the outward portion, which you weren't able to do
I am almost sure the machine presents you with a "refund ticket" less the admin fee
After 28 days you receive a "refund ticket" with nil value

 

[Deerfold]

I don't know what happens after a long Period of time but I picked up a ticket last week at Leeds where I had a change - I'd forgotten to pick the ticket up when I'd been in Leeds two days earlier. I picked it up about 20 minutes after my journey started and used it for the second train of my pre=booked journey (obviously I had to pay again to get into Leeds).

 

[rail-britain]

I'd forgotten to pick the ticket up when I'd been in Leeds two days earlier

Two days is fine, depending on ticket type, the limit is three days

 

[bakerstreet]

You need to use the outward portion, which you weren't able to do

I wasn't aware of any rule saying you are required to use the outward portion of a return ticket? I am sure we have chatted on this forum about getting a return but dumping the outward portion to save money - for example over a single in another direction.

I think there is a convention that you should only use an outward first then the return but that's a different one to having to use the outward at all?

 

[northwichcat]

I wasn't aware of any rule saying you are required to use the outward portion of a return ticket? I am sure we have chatted on this forum about getting a return but dumping the outward portion to save money - for example over a single in another direction.

I think there is a convention that you should only use an outward first then the return but that's a different one to having to use the outward at all?

I think the rule is if you use the return part then it renders the outward part invalid. You don't need the outward part to make a return journey as rail staff (or ticket barriers) are allowed to take it off you when you have finished using it.

If I was in the situation I definitely try the Fast track machines first over asking at the ticket office.

 

[rail-britain]

It is a requirement that you keep the outward ticket when using a return ticket, as the outward ticket can be requested
I've argued this a few times when FSR staff have "demanded" I hand over the outward ticket; refer to the terms of issue for that ticket type
They have then conceeded the point after checking

The point I was trying to make is that the outward portion was not used
As a result the entire ticket becomes void and the purchaser is entitled to a refund of the unused return portion only
The OP had advised they had the issue date on the outward ticket of 06 June but would not be picking it up until 15 June
The time limit is three days for normal tickets (ie not a day ticket)
Therefore if you attempt to pick the ticket on or after 10 June the maching will return a "refund ticket" to you and receipt for that

 

[northwichcat]

It is a requirement that you keep the outward ticket when using a return ticket, as the outward ticket can be requested
I've argued this a few times when FSR staff have "demanded" I hand over the outward ticket; refer to the terms of issue for that ticket type
They have then conceeded the point after checking

In that case all Northern, Merseyrail and ATW staff and ticket barriers are doing the wrong thing. From my experience TPE staff usually seem happy for you to flash your ticket at them opposed to handing it over even when you've finished with it.

 

[Tomnick]

How does anyone know that the outward ticket hasn't been used? If the ticket machine prints the time of collection, then fair enough, it's possible to deduce that it wouldn't have been possible to use it, but otherwise there's no difference between an unused outward portion and a used outward portion that hasn't been inspected.

 

[yorkie]

It is a requirement that you keep the outward ticket when using a return ticket, as the outward ticket can be requested

This simply isn't true. Do you have a source for that?

There is nothing whatsoever that states you must make an outward journey. I see nothing wrong at all with buying a return from A to B and using only the return portion (B to C) and discarding the outward portion. Nowhere in the public domain does it state you have to have done, or be able to do, the outward journey that I have ever seen. Can anyone provide a source with a statement to the contrary? (and no, secret internal railway memos or internal railway documents do not count as they do not form the contract between the customer and the railway - however I'd like to see such secret documents if they exist)

 

[Mojo]

It is a requirement that you keep the outward ticket when using a return ticket, as the outward ticket can be requested

No it's not. You only need the return portion when using the outward.

As posted above, mant automatic gates and also ticket inspection staff at stations will take tickets off you once you have reached the destination printed on them.

 

[dan_atki]

It is a requirement that you keep the outward ticket when using a return ticket, as the outward ticket can be requested

So why, then, are ticket barriers allowed to retain the outward portion?

I think you've probably got things the wrong way around. It is a requirement that an outward portion is only valid when accompanied by a completely unused return portion. Staff can (and do) ask to see the return portion as well when presented with the outward.

I think there is a convention that you should only use an outward first then the return but that's a different one to having to use the outward at all?

I think the rule is if you use the return part then it renders the outward part invalid. You don't need the outward part to make a return journey as rail staff (or ticket barriers) are allowed to take it off you when you have finished using it.

Indeed, the Conditions of Carriage state:

17. Using a return ticket
A return ticket (including a two-part return ticket) is only valid for the outward journey shown on that ticket if the ticket is completely unused. You may not use the outward part of a return ticket after you have used the return part.

The last sentence of which, I think, clarifies things. As soon as you use the return portion then any remaining validity on the outward is void.

You need to use the outward portion, which you weren't able to do

I also don't follow this line of thought. Are you saying that you need to use the outward portion of the ticket for the return portion to become 'valid'? If so, how much of the outward portion needs to be used? 1 station? 10%? to the destination printed on the ticket?

I'm not disputing that the machine will probably not want to issue the tickets but I don't believe it's for the reasons you describe. I have also never heard of these 'refund tickets' you talk of. Is it a voucher to take to the ticket office to get a refund? Can you describe how they work please .

 

[rail-britain]

You're right, its the other way round
You need to carry the return ticket and have that ticket available for inspection

I've used Section 17 in order to keep my OUTWARD ticket, its a badly worded section!

 

[CarterUSM]

It is a requirement that you keep the outward ticket when using a return ticket, as the outward ticket can be requested
I've argued this a few times when FSR staff have "demanded" I hand over the outward ticket; refer to the terms of issue for that ticket type
They have then conceeded the point after checking

That seems a little strange when barriers do swallow outward tickets. I have never requested an outward portion of a return, but many times I have requested the return portion as re- using outward tickets is quite a problem where I work, nearly every day I come across a passenger in these circumstances, sometimes genuine, though more often than not fraudulent unfortunately.

 

[northwichcat]

That seems a little strange when barriers do swallow outward tickets. I have never requested an outward portion of a return, but many times I have requested the return portion as re- using outward tickets is quite a problem where I work, nearly every day I come across a passenger in these circumstances, sometimes genuine, though more often than not fraudulent unfortunately.

They're plenty of passengers that just show the first ticket they find to the conductor without checking what it says first so finish up showing their unused return part with the outward part.

 

[CarterUSM]

They're plenty of passengers that just show the first ticket they find to the conductor without checking what it says first so finish up showing their unused return part with the outward part.

Indeed, I mentioned genuine circumstances in my post and in the situation you describe I will accordingly be my usual polite self first and foremost. Unfortunately the rest I encounter are acting fraudulently. See it all the time, at least once a day usually, though generally more often on backshifts especially.

 

[janb]

The only thing to consider when using a return portion without using the outward is,

You should refuse to accept the return portion of a return ticket if the date and time shown on the ticket indicate that the outward journey could not have been physically and legitimately completed, or part completed, taking into account any applicable general or break of journey restrictions.

Obviously it doesn't apply in the OP's situation but its an interesting little paragraph in The Manual that I'm not sure is public anywhere.

 

[Chris-P]

The only thing to consider when using a return portion without using the outward is,



Obviously it doesn't apply in the OP's situation but its an interesting little paragraph in The Manual that I'm not sure is public anywhere.

if it's not public anywhere then it can't apply, can't have a contract with terms you don't know after all!

 

[John @ home]

if it's not public anywhere then it can't apply, can't have a contract with terms you don't know after all!

The requirement to have an unused return portion of a two-part return ticket when using the outward portion does appear in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

National Rail Conditions of Carriage

17. Using a return ticket
A return ticket (including a two-part return ticket) is only valid for the outward journey shown on that ticket if the ticket is completely unused. You may not use the outward part of a return ticket after you have used the return part.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/

 

[yorkie]

Obviously it doesn't apply in the OP's situation but its an interesting little paragraph in The Manual that I'm not sure is public anywhere.

It does not form any part of the contract, so I believe it can be ignored. I very much doubt a court would take secret info like that into consideration in the event of a dispute, but that's not legal advice. (If they did then I'd have no faith in our legal system!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

if it's not public anywhere then it can't apply, can't have a contract with terms you don't know after all!

The requirement to have an unused return portion of a two-part return ticket when using the outward portion does appear in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

Yes but that 'advice' concerns a different issue. It is basically implying that I can't use the rtn portion of a Peterborough to York Off Peak Day Return on the 0600 from York to Peterborough on the basis that I can't have used the outward portion. However that is nonsense as there is nothing whatsoever in the NCoC that states that the outward portion must be completed or part-completed.

It appears to be an instruction to guards to make a rule up and disregard the NCoC. :roll:

 

[John @ home]

Yes but that 'advice' concerns a different issue. It is basically implying that I can't use the rtn portion of a Peterborough to York Off Peak Day Return on the 0600 from York to Peterborough on the basis that I can't have used the outward portion. However that is nonsense as there is nothing whatsoever in the NCoC that states that the outward portion must be completed or part-completed.

I agree that there is nothing in the NCoC preventing the return portion of a Peterborough - York GDR being used on the 0600 York - Peterborough on a valid day.

Origin : PETERBOROUGH
Destination : YORK
GDR - OFF-PEAK DAY R
Restriction : X1

OUTWARD & RETURN TRAVEL
Ticket Type GDR/GDS available by any train on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays (NOT VALID Mondays to Fridays).

 

[radamfi]

When was the last time a guard asked to see your return portion when using the outward?

 

[yorkie]

In reality it only happens when using a former SOR, now called Anytime (without the Day) previously valid for 1 month on both portions but now only valid for a few days on the outward. If using the outward portion on any day other than the initial starting day then I would expect to be asked to show the return portion (indeed this has happened, the last time I can recall was quite some time ago though). If I was using any outward ticker on the start date I would be very surprised to be asked, and indeed this has never happened.

The rule used to be hidden and applied only to SORs. Then it finally got published into the public domain. However at simplification they put this rule in all ticket types. Various other more strict terms also appeared at simplification. Passenger Focus demanded simplification but all it got us was fare rises (in some cases, despite denials), more strict (and in some cases unfair) terms and more validity codes and more types of ticket, and tickets with the same name (eg Off Peak Single) but with different prices.

 

[janb]

Yes but that 'advice' concerns a different issue. It is basically implying that I can't use the rtn portion of a Peterborough to York Off Peak Day Return on the 0600 from York to Peterborough on the basis that I can't have used the outward portion. However that is nonsense as there is nothing whatsoever in the NCoC that states that the outward portion must be completed or part-completed.

Or equally that as I read it that you couldn't use it on the 14.00 if the ticket showed it was only printed at 13.47 etc.

 

[radamfi]

In the BR days, the return portion of Savers of tickets to London used to be valid on any train. Only the outward portion had morning restrictions. So, for a day trip, it seemed a good idea to buy a Saver return 'the wrong way around' and then use the return portion into London in the morning and the outward portion in the afternoon. I did this a couple of times in 1993/4 and it worked. However, I later read in the copy of the fare manual held in the university library that return portions were only valid with unused portions so I had actually got away with fare dodging.

 

[yorkie]

Or equally that as I read it that you couldn't use it on the 14.00 if the ticket showed it was only printed at 13.47 etc.

Yes, that could be another issue. I really do not think it is right that ATOC should be supplying a "manual" that instructs guards to refuse to accept tickets that are, as far as can be determined, perfectly valid.