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Apologies if this has been raised before- but I cannot find any trace of it. Apologies also if this should be in the Speculative section. Has there ever been a proposal for a second branch of the Piccadilly Line in northern/northeastern London? It seems that having only one route, running only to Cockfosters, is surprising considering how busy the line can be and the two branches at the other end; but while there are plenty of suggestions for western extensions, and while people seem to love bringing up the old Aldwych branch, there seem to be few proposals for a second northern branch. Does anyone have any suggestions?
My own suggestion would be rather unimaginative: as far as possible to take over the unbuilt Northern Heights extension from Finsbury Park to Alexandra Palace via Highgate. I understand, however, that much of this is now a popular walking trail.
I think the reason there are few proposals is because there aren't really a lot of options for where the line could get extended to. Given the Underground does extend quite far in areas something you could do is that branch to Alexandra Palace, and then have it continue down the ECML (well, not literally down the existing tracks of course) and Hertford Loop perhaps, as far as Potters Bar and Gordon Hill respectively, a bit like how the Bakerloo runs alongside the WCML? Of course it's quite an extravagant idea but not one that is not entirely out of the question in my view given the relatively poor operation of the suburban stations here by GTR.
This is really getting into speculative discussion though.
I think the reason there are few proposals is because there aren't really a lot of options for where the line could get extended to. Given the Underground does extend quite far in areas something you could do is that branch to Alexandra Palace, and then have it continue down the ECML (well, not literally down the existing tracks of course) and Hertford Loop perhaps, as far as Potters Bar and Gordon Hill respectively, a bit like how the Bakerloo runs alongside the WCML? Of course it's quite an extravagant idea but not one that is not entirely out of the question in my view given the relatively poor operation of the suburban stations here by GTR.
This is really getting into speculative discussion though.
I have often tried to come up with a way of connecting the old Alexandra Palace station with the ECML. The gradient makes it a non-starter. Have to terminate at Alexandra Palace if using the Parkland route.
I have often tried to come up with a way of connecting the old Alexandra Palace station with the ECML. The gradient makes it a non-starter. Have to terminate at Alexandra Palace if using the Parkland route.
Never converted to a tube line, but a GNR steam branch from 1873 to WW2.
The line climbed constantly from Finsbury park to Highgate, then stayed at around that same high level through the tunnels and junction all the way to Muswell Hill (clue's in the name) and the terminus at Alexandra Palace.
Google Earth indicates that the palace plateau is at 92m, while the ECML track level is ~38m at Alexandra Palace station, resulting in a rise of 54m over a distance of ~700m (at the closest points), which corresponds to a gradient of about 1:13 or 7.69%. Too steep for conventional rail. If such a link was desirable to the palace and Muswell Hill, a longer route winding round the hill with an intermediate stop for the palace a little below the plateau to reduce gradient might be more plausible, with a rise of say 44m over ~1200m, about 1:27 or 3.7%. Even that would be more feasible for light rail though. Maybe a peoplemover, funicular or cable car? Might also cross the ECML at Alexandra Palace and extend to Wood Green for a Piccadilly/CR2 connection.
The line climbed constantly from Finsbury park to Highgate, then stayed at around that same high level through the tunnels and junction all the way to Muswell Hill (clue's in the name) and the terminus at Alexandra Palace.
Google Earth indicates that the palace plateau is at 92m, while the ECML track level is ~38m at Alexandra Palace station, resulting in a rise of 54m over a distance of ~700m (at the closest points), which corresponds to a gradient of about 1:13 or 7.69%. Too steep for conventional rail. If such a link was desirable to the palace and Muswell Hill, a longer route winding round the hill with an intermediate stop for the palace a little below the plateau to reduce gradient might be more plausible, with a rise of say 44m over ~1200m, about 1:27 or 3.7%. Even that would be more feasible for light rail though. Maybe a peoplemover, funicular or cable car? Might also cross the ECML at Alexandra Palace and extend to Wood Green for a Piccadilly/CR2 connection.
One plausible Piccadilly branch, going east to Tottenham and Walthamstow, was used instead for the Victoria Line in 1969, with a nice cross-platform interchange at Finsbury Park.
One plausible Piccadilly branch, going east to Tottenham and Walthamstow, was used instead for the Victoria Line in 1969, with a nice cross-platform interchange at Finsbury Park.
If, as suggested in I think the 1946 London Plan, what is now the Victoria Line had been built as a “crossrail” (ie linking two conventional mainlines and capable of carrying full-size trains), then perhaps this would have been a good use for the Piccadilly.
The branch towards Enfield seems to come up every so often. But is there any actual evidence that this was considered in the 30s. The Wood Green turnback is literally just that, a turnback and nothing else! No obvious signs of any other junction that might have been contemplated. Or where any tube extension would have terminated? Alongside Enfield Town station? On London Rd, near to the Town (but not fully in it)?
As a current user of them, the lack of capacity from just 2tph off peak is really showing, and the peak services are absolutely packed even with 4tph. And with GTR's poor operation of even such a basic service half the time you're better off getting a bus to the nearest tube station. It's quite frankly appalling, but this is going quite off topic - I'm welcome to discuss this in a separate thread.
Western edge, you have the High Barnet branch - which gets into inner Herts, ostensibly. Then New Barnet / Picc / Hertford Loop and Enfield Town / Overground. Even CR2 saw that weird route which looped back to New Southgate.
It's incredibly well served vs many similar snapshots - this screenshot below is all zone 4/5 and there are a lot of radial options. Orbital comes from further in, right so. And the area enjoys a mix of faster (Potters Bar), slower and high frequency, slowest but one-seat tube rides. City and West End options. No complaints really.
I don't see any cause for extending either of the tubes, but Enfield Town should have a more frequent service (4tph all day) - and arguably the Hertford Loop service should and could become more of a metro, with at least 6tph all day to Gordon Hill, buty maybe Hertford too.
The branch towards Enfield seems to come up every so often. But is there any actual evidence that this was considered in the 30s. The Wood Green turnback is literally just that, a turnback and nothing else! No obvious signs of any other junction that might have been contemplated. Or where any tube extension would have terminated? Alongside Enfield Town station? On London Rd, near to the Town (but not fully in it)?
When the Cockfosters extension was first proposed, it was to go as far as today's Oakwood station, originally named Enfield West, with the depot beyond. The planned route was extended a little further to Cockfosters, with running tracks alongside the depot. All stations from Arnos Grove to the terminus are within Enfield, though the line strays just outside the borough between Arnos Grove and Southgate. On opening in 1933, the name Enfield West was used until 1946 when that station became Oakwood. I wonder if these location and naming issues may be the source of some speculation about a further branch. It's possible the entire extension may have been referred to as the Enfield line officially or otherwise at some point.
This was the site of the short-lived Alexandra Park Electric Railway (1888-9). Alexandra Palace was the terminus for lines operated by single decker Metropolitan Electric Tramways cars (unusual in London ) from both the west and east sides. The current W3 service isn't the most frequent bus service in town so I doubt if there would ever be the demand for light rail, sadly.
On page 69 of Mike Horne's book The Piccadilly Tube there are plans drawn in 1929 of three of the stations, including Wood Green where "future extension" is marked. I don't know how firm that idea was at that time, or when it was decided not to proceed with it. The reversing arrangements would have allowed an extension to be built later. At about the time the extension to Cockfosters was opened the Underground Group became the LPTB, and no doubt the 1935-1940 New Works Programme took all their attention over the next few years.
On page 72 of the book is a plan for what was then called East Barnet station (now Oakwood) which shows the depot located to the south of the station.
Neither East Barnet nor Enfield West was a very accurate name. On the other side of the road, as you came out of Enfield West, was a large sign with an arrow pointing to the right and the words "Enfield Town 2¼ miles”.
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I think the more likely situation is that if the Piccadilly Line had been extended north of Cockfosters development would have followed.
Travelling north for about a mile up the main road (Cockfosters Road) north of Cockfosters station there were several very large houses on the left hand side. I recall them from the 1950s and I think it likely these were mostly pre-World War 2. Some have now had other developments built in their gardens. After Ferny Hill (a turning on the right) the houses on the left of the main road were smaller, and also probably largely pre-war. Then there's Waggon Road on the left (Wagon Road at the other end) which on its south side also had smaller houses. To the south of Waggon Road there is some development around the main line line Hadley Wood station; again this is likely to be mostly pre-war, with some larger and very pleasant homes.
I doubt that LPTB wanted to extend north of Cockfosters. The station isn't placed with a view to further extension. When I travelled to school from Southgate in 1950 onwards you could usually get a seat, but not at Arnos Grove unless you chose one of the Arnos Grove starters. If there'd been much new development north of Cockfosters most passengers joining at Southgate would always have had to stand.
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When the Cockfosters extension was first proposed, it was to go as far as today's Oakwood station, originally named Enfield West, with the depot beyond. The planned route was extended a little further to Cockfosters, with running tracks alongside the depot. All stations from Arnos Grove to the terminus are within Enfield, though the line strays just outside the borough between Arnos Grove and Southgate. On opening in 1933, the name Enfield West was used until 1946 when that station became Oakwood. I wonder if these location and naming issues may be the source of some speculation about a further branch. It's possible the entire extension may have been referred to as the Enfield line officially or otherwise at some point.
That's ingenious, but the London Borough of Enfield wasn't formed until April 1965. Southgate Station was in East Barnet Urban District. Enfield West/Oakwood was in the Borough of Southgate. I think Cockfosters was in the pre-1965 Borough of Enfield. I don't think it's likely that the extension would have been thought of as the Enfield line, since it didn't go near what at that time would have been thought of as Enfield, which is Enfield Town.
My own suggestion would be rather unimaginative: as far as possible to take over the unbuilt Northern Heights extension from Finsbury Park to Alexandra Palace via Highgate. I understand, however, that much of this is now a popular walking trail.
I always imagined that had the London sprawl had continued unabated, then future developments would have tried to connect things up to enable higher capacity orbital travel to permit things to develop more densely.
To that end, I've occasionally mused on an imagined Piccadilly extension beyond Cockfosters to Elstree via New Barnet, High Barnet, et. al., meeting an extension of what is now the Jubilee from Stanmore via Elstree Hill South.
A Piccadilly extension along the Alexandra Palace branch is essentially the idea for the brilliant layout “Hornsey Broadway”. I think I may have read a reference to a northern extension into Trent Park or wherever. Can’t remember fully.
I've always thought that branching off at Finsbury Park, going underground to Haringey Green Lanes, up through some of the unserved areas of Tottenham to Edmonton Green before surfacing and joining the line to Enfield Town just before Bush Hill Park would provide the best development opportunities as well as worthwhile links
I've always thought that branching off at Finsbury Park, going underground to Haringey Green Lanes, up through some of the unserved areas of Tottenham to Edmonton Green before surfacing and joining the line to Enfield Town just before Bush Hill Park would provide the best development opportunities as well as worthwhile links
Apologies if this has been raised before- but I cannot find any trace of it. Apologies also if this should be in the Speculative section. Has there ever been a proposal for a second branch of the Piccadilly Line in northern/northeastern London? It seems that having only one route, running only to Cockfosters, is surprising considering how busy the line can be and the two branches at the other end; but while there are plenty of suggestions for western extensions, and while people seem to love bringing up the old Aldwych branch, there seem to be few proposals for a second northern branch. Does anyone have any suggestions?
My own suggestion would be rather unimaginative: as far as possible to take over the unbuilt Northern Heights extension from Finsbury Park to Alexandra Palace via Highgate. I understand, however, that much of this is now a popular walking trail.
I don’t think it remotely needs extending. Anywhere further out is served by faster services - which all have a connection to the Victoria line for an alt route to the West End.
The Moorgate routes need to improve in frequency to be metro routes (6tph each side) - that would make the world of difference along both lines.
I drive the 298 bus route which serves Cockfosters and travels up to Potters bar which is a very busy section of the route you see a lot of people get on and off in Potters bar that have TFL staff passes, freedom passes oyster cards, travel cards, et cetera and would be interesting to see the Piccadilly line extended to Potters bar.
I guess if that happened, then there would be lots of people who live in a town nearby to Potters bar who are the same and the cycle would just continue
I don’t think it remotely needs extending. Anywhere further out is served by faster services - which all have a connection to the Victoria line for an alt route to the West End.
The Moorgate routes need to improve in frequency to be metro routes (6tph each side) - that would make the world of difference along both lines.
Perhaps the title i have given the thread is misleading. I am more interested in whether there should be a second branch in north London than in extending the current line beyond Cockfosters, although I don’t see anything necessarily wrong with that either.
I am thinking more of a route through suburban north London which would give greater public transport connectivity. Obviously the Victoria Line is faster than the Piccadilly in most cases; indeed if such a branch were to be built I would expect a high proportion of its users to change at Finsbury Park.
I drive the 298 bus route which serves Cockfosters and travels up to Potters bar which is a very busy section of the route you see a lot of people get on and off in Potters bar that have TFL staff passes, freedom passes oyster cards, travel cards, et cetera and would be interesting to see the Piccadilly line extended to Potters bar.
I guess if that happened, then there would be lots of people who live in a town nearby to Potters bar who are the same and the cycle would just continue
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