PFN issued when changing trains at a station with a split ticket.

[Narked]

I had purchased a split ticket on trainline Skipton - Leeds, Leeds - Garforth on Trainline. I just saved the ticket on my Google wallet without looking. The train from Skipton was late and I missed my connection. I checked the board and caught the next available train. I hadn't checked the tickets only the route which was correct. The ticket did have the Northern Only Route. So I had an invalid ticket which I have to admit is through my own oversight. The collector issued a penalty fare notice for £104.20 for a £3 ticket? for having a Northern only ticket on Trans Pennine Train. Although I told him that I had changed trains, and he would not listen to my explanation. Not even asking me what time the previous train arrived.

I am basing my appeal that the penalty fare was incorrectly applied- The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, as amended by the The Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022, and if someone with a bit more experience in these matters could check my understanding is correct.

Firstly - My train was late and I checked the board and went to the next available train. So Section 6, Para (3) (c ) (ii) applies. And the correct procedure should have been to give me the opportunity to buy a ticket.

Section 6 —(1) Subject to paragraph (6), a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train (in this regulation “the passenger”) must not be charged a penalty fare where either paragraph (2) or (3) applies.
(3) This paragraph applies if—
(a)the passenger has travelled on a preceding train;
(b)at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the first of the preceding trains, any of sub-paragraphs (a) to (d) of paragraph (2) applied; and
(c)at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger changed from any preceding train—
(i)any of sub-paragraphs (a) to (d) of paragraph (2) applied; or
(ii)the passenger did not have sufficient time between leaving one train and boarding the next to purchase a travel ticket

Secondly I did not see any notices between the platforms, so the signage was not readily visible. So section 6 (2) (B) applies as Section 8 (1) (4) was not adhered to. I didn't see any notices, and as there is no legal definition of legally visible, this is very subjective.

6.—(1) Subject to paragraph (6), a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train (in this regulation “the passenger”) must not be charged a penalty fare where either paragraph (2) or (3) applies.
(2) This paragraph applies if, at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the train—
(b)the requirements for the display of notices specified in regulation 8 were not satisfied;

Section 8.—(1) The requirements for the display of notices are as follows.
(4) Standard notices and compulsory ticket area notices must also be displayed at sufficient locations around the station so that at least one notice is readily visible to passengers prior to boarding a train at the station, including passengers changing from one train to another train.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Narked. Welcome to the forum. Why do you think that a route "AP Northern" Advance Single ticket would ever be valid on a TPE train? Surely, the thing to do would have been to wait a few minutes more at Leeds for the next Northern train (from Leeds to Garforth) and claim 'Delay Repay' from Northern?

By the way, just how much have TPE asked you to pay? =£4.20 with a £50 or £100 penalty fare added on top?

 

[Narked]

I didn't look at the ticket only the notification when I bought it, so didn't know it was Northern only. I have never had problems before on the route - It's a suburban route and tickets are usually for any train. So potentially an expensive lesson
TPE issued £104.20 - £4.20 fare and £100 penalty, with £50 if paid in 21 days.

My issue is that the PFN was not issued in accordance with the the legislation which differs if changing trains as opposed to entering a station, and I should have been asked to buy a single with no PFN. (I have had instances in the past when travelling with a ticket to Leeds where I have bought a single to Garforth on a TPE train, after explaining I had just got off the train from X and hadn.t had time to buy a ticket - and that was before I even knew about the exclusion)

 

[furlong]

"any of sub-paragraphs (a) to (d) of paragraph (2) applied" - for your case 1, which of those applied?

Also look at NRCoT 28.2 "Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you."

Your ticket was only valid on one train and disruption prevented you from completing the journey so you can try to argue the train company was obliged to carry you under that condition, for exactly the same reason as Northern would have been obliged to had you boarded one of its trains.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Wouldn't there have been a Northern train from Leeds to Garforth just three minutes after the TPE departure, at that time of the afternoon, on Monday 16th September?

 

[Kilopylae]

Why do you think that a route "AP Northern" Advance Single ticket would ever be valid on a TPE train? Surely, the thing to do would have been to wait a few minutes more at Leeds for the next Northern train (from Leeds to Garforth) and claim 'Delay Repay' from Northern?

That is the rule, but it's hardly obvious to most people (not to mention potentially problematic under 28.2, although unlike furlong, I do not think that 28.2 gives passengers a 'self-help' right to use another TOC's train if that TOC hasn't agreed to help them as it is supposed to). I don't think we need to be judgy.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Also look at NRCoT 28.2 "Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you."

Is there a difference in the NRCoT between “delay” and “disruption”?

Feels to me like one train being a bit delayed is just that, a delay, whereas disruption would be more widespread.

Could someone clarify this before we get the OP too excited about a potential challenge?

 

[Narked]

"any of sub-paragraphs (a) to (d) of paragraph (2) applied" - for your case 1, which of those applied?

Also look at NRCoT 28.2 "Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you."

Your ticket was only valid on one train and disruption prevented you from completing the journey so you can try to argue the train company was obliged to carry you under that condition, for exactly the same reason as Northern would have been obliged to had you boarded one of its trains.

Thanks for the NRCoT reference.

It is interesting that 28.2 refers to any where as the other conditions refer to every or your train company.

As with the term "readily visible " the difference between delay and disruption are not defined.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks for the NRCoT reference.

It is interesting that 28.2 refers to any where as the other conditions refer to every or your train company.

As with the term "readily visible " the difference between delay and disruption are not defined.

That you didn’t see a sign doesn’t mean it isn’t “readily visible” - have you investigated the signage at Leeds? Are there any on the route you would take between changing trains?

I think this is important to do else your appeal may well fail. “I didn’t see it” won’t suffice on its own.

 

[reb0118]

If we take the fact that using an Advance ticket on other than the booked train is generally taken to be the equivalent of travelling with no ticket, then surely this could be akin to short fareing? In that the OP had an opportunity to obtain a ticket prior to boarding at his origin for his throughout journey.

To me, changing trains in this instance is a red herring. That defence would only apply if there was no opportunity to purchase prior to boarding.

 

[furlong]

You can also quote https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tick...tickets/advance-tickets-terms-and-conditions/

"5.2 If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey. "

No further restrictions. You took the next available train as entitled under that condition.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

You can also quote https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tick...tickets/advance-tickets-terms-and-conditions/

"5.2 If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey. "

No further restrictions. You took the next available train as entitled under that condition.

That seems fairly unequivocal. Assume the OP was booked on the 1600 Northern train from Skipton to Leeds on Monday 16SEP2024. Due in Leeds at 1638 but arrived some 15 minutes down. No chance then of catching the already booked 1654 Northern train onward from Leeds to Garforth. That, however, had been a valid connection (minimum connection time at Leeds is 10 minutes).

Might, however, the PF appeals team, when considering the OP's appeal, try to assert (correctly, or incorrectly) that the next available train when using a route "AP Northern Only" ticket from Leeds to Garforth would have been the 1716 Northern service, and not the 1713 TPE?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I had purchased a split ticket on trainline Skipton - Leeds, Leeds - Garforth on Trainline. I just saved the ticket on my Google wallet without looking. The train from Skipton was late and I missed my connection. I checked the board and caught the next available train. I hadn't checked the tickets only the route which was correct. The ticket did have the Northern Only Route. So I had an invalid ticket which I have to admit is through my own oversight. The collector issued a penalty fare notice for £104.20 for a £3 ticket? for having a Northern only ticket on Trans Pennine Train. Although I told him that I had changed trains, and he would not listen to my explanation. Not even asking me what time the previous train arrived.

I am basing my appeal that the penalty fare was incorrectly applied- The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, as amended by the The Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022, and if someone with a bit more experience in these matters could check my understanding is correct.

Firstly - My train was late and I checked the board and went to the next available train. So Section 6, Para (3) (c ) (ii) applies. And the correct procedure should have been to give me the opportunity to buy a ticket.

Section 6 —(1) Subject to paragraph (6), a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train (in this regulation “the passenger”) must not be charged a penalty fare where either paragraph (2) or (3) applies.
(3) This paragraph applies if—
(a)the passenger has travelled on a preceding train;
(b)at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the first of the preceding trains, any of sub-paragraphs (a) to (d) of paragraph (2) applied; and
(c)at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger changed from any preceding train—
(i)any of sub-paragraphs (a) to (d) of paragraph (2) applied; or
(ii)the passenger did not have sufficient time between leaving one train and boarding the next to purchase a travel ticket

Secondly I did not see any notices between the platforms, so the signage was not readily visible. So section 6 (2) (B) applies as Section 8 (1) (4) was not adhered to. I didn't see any notices, and as there is no legal definition of legally visible, this is very subjective.

6.—(1) Subject to paragraph (6), a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train (in this regulation “the passenger”) must not be charged a penalty fare where either paragraph (2) or (3) applies.
(2) This paragraph applies if, at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the train—
(b)the requirements for the display of notices specified in regulation 8 were not satisfied;

Section 8.—(1) The requirements for the display of notices are as follows.
(4) Standard notices and compulsory ticket area notices must also be displayed at sufficient locations around the station so that at least one notice is readily visible to passengers prior to boarding a train at the station, including passengers changing from one train to another train.

In respect of "Firstly".

You need to read this fully.

6.—(1) Subject to paragraph (6), a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train (in this regulation “the passenger”) must not be charged a penalty fare where either paragraph (2) or (3) applies.

(2) This paragraph applies if, at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the train—

(a)there were no facilities in operation for the sale of a travel ticket for that passenger’s journey;

(b)the requirements for the display of notices specified in regulation 8 were not satisfied;

(c)a notice was displayed indicating that the passenger was, or persons generally were, permitted to travel by or be present on the train without having a travel ticket; or

(d)the operator of the train or the station, or a person acting or purporting to act on behalf of the operator, indicated that the passenger was, or persons generally were, permitted to travel by or be present on the train without having a travel ticket.

(3) This paragraph applies if—

(a)the passenger has travelled on a preceding train;

(b)at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the first of the preceding trains, any of sub-paragraphs (a) to (d) of paragraph (2) applied; and

(c)at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger changed from any preceding train—

(i)any of sub-paragraphs (a) to (d) of paragraph (2) applied; or

(ii)the passenger did not have sufficient time between leaving one train and boarding the next to purchase a travel ticket.

Looking at the above, Either Paragraph 2 or 3 needs to apply for you to be exempt from a Penalty Fare.

Paragraph 2 applies to Leeds, and I suspect none of those failed at Leeds.

Paragraph 3 applies to Skipton. 3,c,ii is not independent. It is an "and" to 3,b.

So, for 3,c to apply, any of Para 2 a - d must have applied at Skipton AND Para 2 a - d must have applied at Leeds OR you did not have sufficient time to purchase a travel ticket at Leeds.

I suspect all of 2 a - d applied at Skipton too. The only possible get out could be 2b, in so far as you can only be charged a Penalty Fare by an operator if the sign at the origin showed the logo or name of that operator who is charging the Penalty Fare. As the Northern and TPE scheme generally operates as one, and each operator has an agreement for the collection of penalty fares by the other, the signs at both company's stations all seem to display both logos. I can't be certain at Skipton, but I know other stations on the Aire Valley line at Northern stations show the Transpennine Logo, so I suspect Skipton will do too.

To use 3(c)(ii) as a defence Para 2 a - d must have applied at Skipton.

In essence, the combination of 6(2) and (3), means that (2) (a) to (d) applies only at the point where you entered the relevant penalty fares scheme area, which in your case would be Skipton. So anything at Leeds is largely irrelevant, unless the TPE logo is missing from the signs at Skipton, and thus you only entered the TPE scheme area at Leeds.

"any of sub-paragraphs (a) to (d) of paragraph (2) applied" - for your case 1, which of those applied?

Also look at NRCoT 28.2 "Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you."

Your ticket was only valid on one train and disruption prevented you from completing the journey so you can try to argue the train company was obliged to carry you under that condition, for exactly the same reason as Northern would have been obliged to had you boarded one of its trains.

Disruption did not prevent the OP from completing their journey. The ticket was still valid and could be used on the next Northern service 3 minutes later. The ticket had not ceased to be valid and they were not in a situation where there were no other options available for which their ticket would have been valid. I.e., they were not stranded.

As is often quoted on this forum, the PRO rules only kick in once an expected delay of 60+ minutes applies.

You can also quote https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tick...tickets/advance-tickets-terms-and-conditions/

"5.2 If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey. "

No further restrictions. You took the next available train as entitled under that condition.

The next 'available' train would be the next Northern train.

As per the advance T's and C's you quote...

"4.3 Tickets may only be used on the services of the Train Company (or geographic route where applicable) shown next to ‘Route’ on the ticket. "

There is nothing to say that 4.3. doesn't apply if delays occur while travelling. Therefore a TPE train is not "available" as it isn't valid with the ticket.

 

[BongoStar]

Firstly - My train was late and I checked the board and went to the next available train. So Section 6, Para (3) (c ) (ii) applies. And the correct procedure should have been to give me the opportunity to buy a ticket.



Secondly I did not see any notices between the platforms, so the signage was not readily visible. So section 6 (2) (B) applies as Section 8 (1) (4) was not adhered to. I didn't see any notices, and as there is no legal definition of legally visible, this is very subjective.

But even if there was ample time and signage visible to you, it appears you would not have bought a ticket because in your mind, you had a flexible ticket. And that is what the underlying issue is - you didn't check that the ticket you hold is valid on the train you are taking.

The guard issuing you a PF was better than reporting you for prosecution. If it ended up in court, I am not sure what position you would take:

1. You didn't know you had a Northern only ticket and boarded the train without bothering to check the validity of it for the train assuming it was a flexible one.

2. You knew it was an Northern only ticket, you checked departure boards and saw a TPE followed by Northern 3 minutes later but still got on TPE, due to an earlier delay (not disruption - these are two distinct scenarios when dealing with ToC).

TPE just need to evidence one purchase of a Northern only ticket on this route by you to demonstrate that you are fully aware that such tickets exist on this route, so you should be well aware of the rules.

The delay of first leg is really not relevant here. If you knew you had bought a Northern only, even in instances of disruption (which wasn't the case here), unless there is blanked acceptance of tickets, it is advisable to ask the staff before boarding. And they would have just told you to wait 3 mins for the next train they are making available for your journey.

 

[dodecahedron67]

First off, I think it’s worth saying you were unlucky in a way. You encountered one of our RPO/RPAs and not a guard (TPE guards cannot penalty fare, and only some can issue a TIR), as if you’d encountered a guard you would’ve simply been sold a new single Leeds - Garforth

That being said, for an RPO/RPA dealing with this situation, they have acted in according with their training and the way they are supposed to. Revenue Protection at TPE do not sell new tickets unless there is a very good reason, as PFs are their remit.

I think that for the sake of 3 minutes (1713 vs 1716 ex-Leeds) it’s an expensive mistake, but one you have made nonetheless. Chasing appeals under signage is irrelevant as Leeds does indeed have compliant signance both on the concourse and in various poster cases on the platforms. TPE services are also announced with ‘Northern or XC only tickets are not valid on this service’ as well as a note on departure boards that ‘Penalty Fares apply on this service’.

 

[furlong]

"4.3 Tickets may only be used on the services of the Train Company (or geographic route where applicable) shown next to ‘Route’ on the ticket. "

There is nothing to say that 4.3. doesn't apply if delays occur while travelling. Therefore a TPE train is not "available" as it isn't valid with the ticket.

But don't forget

4.1 Tickets are valid ONLY on the date and train service(s) shown on the ticket(s).

No exceptions. On its own terms, the ticket is no longer valid on any service, whatever the operator, so conditions such as 4.3 are irrelevant by this stage.

It is only 5.2 that provides for the remedy of travel on "the next available train" using the ticket that is by now invalid.
It is noteworthy that 5.2 does not place limits on the train company.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So, does the OP have grounds for submitting an appeal which has any prospect of being successful?

 

[yorkie]

So, does the OP have grounds for submitting an appeal which has any prospect of being successful?

I would say so.

I could also look into the possibility of asking a solicitor to represent the OP on a pro bono basis; @Narked please let me know if you would like to consider that option.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2024 ==

First off, I think it’s worth saying you were unlucky in a way. You encountered one of our RPO/RPAs and not a guard ...

I'd be very keen to audit these people, and also ask some questions of the person responsible for training them!

 

[dodecahedron67]

There isn’t any grounds for appeal here, whatsoever, regardless of people’s personal views on operator specific advances in (minor) disruption.

I am all for being lenient on minor mistakes/ticketing issues (and whether I would’ve charged for a new ticket had it been me you ran into is another matter) but by the letter you have fallen foul and a 20 minute delay is not going to bail you out of the fact that you had a ticket clearly marked ‘Northern Only’ and got on a TPE train. An RPO issuing a PF is appropriate in those circumstances, the fact you were delayed by 20 minutes is irrelevant as it wasn’t 1h+ to the next Northern service, so PRO doesn’t kick in.

If this was a TPE only advance and you’d got on a Northern you’d have the same result. You’ve messed up, yes it’s “steep” over a £4 or whatever ticket, but that’s the way it is.

Signage at both Leeds and Skipton is adequate under PF regulations so you have absolutely no leg to stand on. You also admit you knew it was Northern only and yet still got on a TPE service. To suggest any solicitor would take this on pro bono is ridiculous, as they would be fighting one of the most open and shut cases possible, and one not in their favour.

@Solent&Wessex ’s post explains it perfectly

I'd be very keen to audit these people, and also ask some questions of the person responsible for training them!

I know you have seen the retail training slides for TPE as we’ve discussed them before and they’ve been FOI’d. The revenue team are there for revenue protection and PFs/TIRs are their remit, not new tickets. New tickets are the guard’s remit.

 

[Kilopylae]

There does seem to be a conflict between NRCoT 28.2, which might require all TOCs in a position to help to offer ticket acceptance, but does not seem to authorise passengers to travel unilaterally on another TOC's services before acceptance has been arranged, and Advance T&Cs 5.2, which seems to imply that any train can be taken. Similarly, NRCoT speaks of "disruption", which may not cover a short delay to a single train, whilst the Advance T&Cs speak of "if delays occur", which does.

Given the broader context though, including the Advance T&Cs' repeated emphasis on TOC restrictions, the announcements at the station warning Northern only passengers not to board TPE trains, and the general understanding that standard practice is to board the next train of the same operator... well, it's hard to imagine a bored magistrate who deals with thirty fare evasion SJPNs a day accepting a novel reading of Advance T&Cs 5.2 that conflicts with the general tenor of both the Advance T&Cs and the NRCoT, as well as with the background known to the parties. Hard to imagine they'd even listen to the argument rather than just 'No, you don't understand the rules, NEXT'.

This is particularly true given that this was a relatively short, isolated delay, and there was a Northern train three minutes later. It's not exactly someone missing a funeral due to a lack of ticket acceptance during widespread line closures. It looks like someone not knowing the rules and combing through the T&Cs for a loophole after the fact. Not that I have anything against that, but when it looks that way to a magistrate, it isn't likely to succeed, imo.

 

[OscarH]

There does seem to be a conflict between NRCoT 28.2, which might require all TOCs in a position to help to offer ticket acceptance, but does not seem to authorise passengers to travel unilaterally on another TOC's services before acceptance has been arranged, and Advance T&Cs 5.2, which seems to imply that any train can be taken. Similarly, NRCoT speaks of "disruption", which may not cover a short delay to a single train, whilst the Advance T&Cs speak of "if delays occur", which does.

Given the broader context though, including the Advance T&Cs' repeated emphasis on TOC restrictions, the announcements at the station warning Northern only passengers not to board TPE trains, and the general understanding that standard practice is to board the next train of the same operator... well, it's hard to imagine a bored magistrate who deals with thirty fare evasion SJPNs a day accepting a novel reading of Advance T&Cs 5.2 that conflicts with the general tenor of both the Advance T&Cs and the NRCoT, as well as with the background known to the parties. Hard to imagine they'd even listen to the argument rather than just 'No, you don't understand the rules, NEXT'.

This is particularly true given that this was a relatively short, isolated delay, and there was a Northern train three minutes later. It's not exactly someone missing a funeral due to a lack of ticket acceptance during widespread line closures. It looks like someone not knowing the rules and combing through the T&Cs for a loophole after the fact. Not that I have anything against that, but when it looks that way to a magistrate, it isn't likely to succeed, imo.

The common view of 28.2 is that it's related to when you would be stranded overnight (hence being prevented from completing your journey), so I don't think relevant here

 

[BongoStar]

This is particularly true given that this was a relatively short, isolated delay, and there was a Northern train three minutes later. It's not exactly someone missing a funeral due to a lack of ticket acceptance during widespread line closures. It looks like someone not knowing the rules and combing through the T&Cs for a loophole after the fact.

To add to that, this is a clear case of someone not bothering to check what ticket they bought and expecting concessions which would not be available in any circumstances.

Also, if we refer to a ToC position on what their obligations are in delays, read this post on another thread:

Karen from Avanti responds:
“Whilst you are correct the National Rail Conditions of Travel does advise passengers their Train Operating Company will do their best to get you to your destination, this does not mean passengers can travel on any service.

If your ticket is valid only on West Midlands and Northern Services only, you can travel only on those services. If you travel on another Train Operator's service you may be charged and it is at the Train Manager's discretion whether to do so.

We do, on occasion, arrange for other Train Operator's tickets to be accepted on our services and usually because there are serious disruptions across the network. This is called ticket easement and is agreed between Train Operators and agreed in advance.

The Train Manager was willing to make a call to see if your ticket could be accepted and this was agreed.

Please rest assured feedback will be discussed and appropriate steps to improve things will be taken. Whether that’s by way of individual coaching, training, or other more formal methods.

Avanti West Coast will carry on investing in our people, to help them develop and enhance all of the skills needed to make our customers’ service and experience go smoothly. I am confident this will be reflected in the experience that you have next time you travel with us.

For your future reference, Crewe station has Help points. So, if you have difficulties travelling from there and there are no staff available, from any company, you can use these to call for assistance.”