PF'd in declassified First Class compartment

[jon0844]

I think I might have upset two plain clothed RPIs this morning!

I boarded my train to sit in the declassified FC section. Noticed man in there being given a PF for a fare that was just under £40. He seemed to be accepting it, no fuss. I presumed he'd boarded with no ticket.

Then, having seen me come in and sit down they asked for my ticket. When I produced it, he asked if I had another one (?) and I asked him what he meant. He then said it was first class, to which I corrected him and said it wasn't.

Yes it was! No it wasn't... that carried on a little until he pulled out a timetable and looked it up - asking me what service I thought it was. He then 'found it' and confirmed it was first class. I was somewhat surprised, but he wouldn't show me the page - yet the time he mentioned didn't fit (presumably a very slightly earlier service that didn't stop at Hatfield).

So I pulled out my own timetable (thank goodness I brought my bag today!) and found it - and, sure enough, it was marked as a 4-car service and NO first class.

So now it was my job to tell him which page it was on, and he walked off to talk to his colleague.

Upon his return, it wasn't to talk to me but to go to the gentleman who'd been given his PF and tell him it was being cancelled. So, I guess he did have a ticket, but standard class only.

What it did highlight however is how many people were in that compartment who obviously DID have first class tickets. What a waste.

So, I unexpectedly succeeded in getting a ticket cancelled (and a big thank you from the passenger) and now there may be many other FC ticket holders who will wonder why they're paying extra for their train to work that allows standard ticket holders in.

To be honest I'm torn as to how much sympathy to give him considering he knew it was first class and sat there anyway. He said he was't feeling well and needed a seat (that defence obviously didn't work!), but the service isn't that packed and there are seats in standard. Anyone standing does so purely out of choice. I did tell him that he was lucky this time, but most services to London would have first class in use.

Oops!

 

[t0ffeeman]

I assume it was a 317 or 321 instead of a 313. The only train I can see that happening on this morning is the 0611 ex KX or 0712 or 0746 ex Hatfield

 

[philjo]

we have had 317 or 365 units occasionally run the 07:19 Letchworth GC-KX stopping service instead of a 313 (now leaves at 07:20) if it was a 4-coach instead of the usual 6, some of the drivers reminded passengers that they could use the first class seats. Not happened recently as more 313s available now - there was along period when we had a 317 or 365 on this train (8 coaches as well, so better than the usual 6)
I seem to have had a bit of an argument with WAGN over this before as tickets were checked , but as the driver actually announced that it was a standard-only service whilst the ticket inspector was trying to charge everyone extra, he had to admit he was wrong!

one thing I have noticed in the fares, if that several stations inc Potters Bar etc have a 1st class peak return fare to London, but usually only 313s call during the peak periods!

 

[rail-britain]

We have a similar situation in Scotland where Express Class 158 / 170 units sometimes operate on SPT services (no First Class)
However, I've never heard of anyone with a Standard ticket being excessed or asked to leave
If there is First Class on such a service then I use it, although the First Class in a Class 158 is a waste of time as the seats are almost identical!

 

[jon0844]

I won't say what service it was (but, to be honest, it's hardly difficult to work out!) but it was a 317. It's a new service, originating from Hitchin, and all of the services that start from WGC (not the all-station services to Moorgate which are always 313s), Hitchin or Letchworth are declassified as far as I can tell - however, over the years and successive timetable changes, some of these have gone from 4 or 8-car services (all with 1st class) to 6-car 313s without.

This is of course one reason why first class cannot be used - as there's no guarantee that a train with first class on it will be in service for that diagram! As said above, the service that forms the 0744 (or whatever it is in the new timetable) from Hatfield is usually a 313, but the 0818 and 0844 (again, times may have changed by a minute or two) are 4 or 8-car and declassified. Mind you, I've not been on either since May so maybe they're 313s now.

So far this new service that I am on most days has gone from being near empty to pretty well used, but I doubt it's going to become so packed that they'll need to switch to a 6 or 8-car service.

In my opinion, as people start to adjust, the new timetable is working very well indeed.

 

[t0ffeeman]

The 0839 ex Hitchin, Hatfield 0902 is a declassified 4 car!!

 

[jon0844]

Really? I wouldn't know.

 

[asylumxl]

Kudos on holding your ground

 

[johnb]

Yup, a heartwarming tale of anti-jobsworthery. Although if I'd been in your shoes I'd've followed up with a stiff letter of complaint to FCC for trying to illegally extort money with menaces

 

[jon0844]

All credit to FCC - certainly no need for a complaint. Although at first they perhaps tried it on (having already considered the need for cancelling their PF given seconds before), once it was clarified it was all handled well - and they apologised to the other passenger.

My problem is the fact that the passenger probably should have been PFd as he was trying it on - and was simply a very lucky man (I mean a PF for some £40 is quite a sting, especially if he had a standard ticket already!). I actually felt sorry for the inspectors after this, especially as I am very happy to have seen two plain-clothed ticket checks in the last week. Long may it continue.

But they need to check their timetables a bit more throughly!

 

[87015]

My problem is the fact that the passenger probably should have been PFd as he was trying it on - and was simply a very lucky man (I mean a PF for some £40 is quite a sting, especially if he had a standard ticket already!). I actually felt sorry for the inspectors after this, especially as I am very happy to have seen two plain-clothed ticket checks in the last week. Long may it continue.

Do you know he was trying it on or are you just assuming that as he didn't refuse to pay up? It can be a lot easier to pay up and claim it (plus compensation for incompetence/being humiliated) than arguing with clowns that clearly don't know what they are doing if issuing FC penalty fares on a SC only train.

 

[jon0844]

He got a PF for sitting in first class, and when he thanked me (upon getting is PF cancelled) he said he'd sat there because he didn't feel well and needed a seat. To be honest, that means he knew it was first class all along - and clearly didn't know it was declassified. He got caught because the inspectors were plain clothed, so he presumably didn't see them and move (as usually happens on a 317 unless they're clever enough to come in from each side - and that rarely happens).

For him to have his PF cancelled, I have to assume he had a standard ticket! If he didn't, he would have still been given a PF - albeit for double the standard fare or £20.

I thought I'd written in enough detail in my original post to make it clear.

Also, everyone else in the compartment was still there - so either they'd been given a PF (unlikely or they'd have had theirs cancelled) or they had first class tickets - until I got on, nobody thought it was declassified. A fair few will now be wondering why they're paying extra - unless of course their company is paying for them, or it's not the service they usually use. However, since I've been using that train it's full of the same faces! A first class compartment on a 317 isn't exactly big - so you do get to recognise people day in, day out.

 

[yorkie]

H
A fair few will now be wondering why they're paying extra - unless of course their company is paying for them, or it's not the service they usually use.

Or they get train with FC in the evening peak?

IMO inspectors who incorrectly give out PFs in circumstances like this should themselves be given some sort of penalty. Otherwise, what's to stop them 'trying it on', as they did in this case and, other times, they will be quids in as there will be no-one to challenge them.

PF inspectors try it on and there are no repercussions? That's not right.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All credit to FCC - certainly no need for a complaint. Although at first they perhaps tried it on (having already considered the need for cancelling their PF given seconds before),

They were blatantly trying it on, that should be an offence IMO.

once it was clarified it was all handled well - and they apologised to the other passenger.

So if a passenger handles a PF well and apologies they should get away with it like the inspectors do?

My problem is the fact that the passenger probably should have been PFd as he was trying it on

On the contrary, the inspector should be given a penalty for trying it on!

I actually felt sorry for the inspectors after this, especially as I am very happy to have seen two plain-clothed ticket checks in the last week. Long may it continue.

But they need to check their timetables a bit more throughly!

That's a big "but". That's like saying SC passengers should get away with being in FC on trains that have FC and should simply "check their timetables more thoroughly" to make sure that next time they get a declassified train, isn't it?

 

[rail-britain]

That's quite a good bit of entrapment...
Send out a train with First Class on a service where there is none
Load the train with undercover inspectors, who then pounce when ANYONE sits in First Class

Complain, irrespective of if the matter was resolved
What the operator has done is completely wrong and improper

 

[jon0844]

It's worth noting that many of the evening peak services are also declassified, so there's a fair chance you may be travelling each way on a service that doesn't need a first class ticket.

As for the other points, I believe it was a genuine mistake. If it was a moneyspinner then they'd be doing this every day and they would ALWAYS be questioning people. In my experience over the last 6+ years, they'll know 99% of the time that a standard ticket is okay. Entrapment sounds like a good idea, but I doubt they'd win many appeals and it wouldn't do much for their reputation. That's not to say that I haven't seen some pretty bad RPIs over the years - but the bad ones seem to have disappeared...

My concern was that the person originally PF'd didn't know it was declassified and was lucky - and long may they continue to check first class to keep people out when they're not entitled to be there. The people in first are subsidising the rest of us - although when it's declassified then they're going to have to put up with me trying to get a table and a bit of privacy compared to the rest of the train!

Now if anyone is to complain, it's the passenger given a PF (even though it was cancelled). Why should I complain? I knew it was declassified, argued my case and won. No harm done to me.

 

[yorkie]

Why should I complain? I knew it was declassified, argued my case and won. No harm done to me.

If you had not had your timetable with you, then a PF may have been issued to you? As you said "thank goodness I brought my bag today!" but it shouldn't come to that.

I'm very concerned that they issued a PF for someone in FC on a train where there is no FC accomodation, and that the only reason they didn't get away with it was the unlikely chance that someone challenged them and produced a timetable to prove it. I bet most commuters would not have a copy of the timetable and some may be frightened to speak out against RPIs, who can appear intimidating to people.

 

[Jim]

Or they get train with FC in the evening peak?

IMO inspectors who incorrectly give out PFs in circumstances like this should themselves be given some sort of penalty. Otherwise, what's to stop them 'trying it on', as they did in this case and, other times, they will be quids in as there will be no-one to challenge them.

They are only human - are you telling me you would never have made a mistake before?

 

[jon0844]

If you had not had your timetable with you, then a PF may have been issued to you? As you said "thank goodness I brought my bag today!" but it shouldn't come to that.

I'm very concerned that they issued a PF for someone in FC on a train where there is no FC accomodation, and that the only reason they didn't get away with it was the unlikely chance that someone challenged them and produced a timetable to prove it. I bet most commuters would not have a copy of the timetable and some may be frightened to speak out against RPIs, who can appear intimidating to people.

I think you can safely say that I wouldn't have accepted a PF (although I did for a short time wonder if I was in fact wrong and had misread the new timetable so that's why it was particularly useful to be carrying a timetable, which I hardly EVER do - it's simply for the change to the evening services and the fact I am having to make a connection at Finsbury Park most evenings) and I would have insisted on them showing me their timetable before they went any further.

I think the fact is he wasn't sure what service he was actually on, not some conspiracy to give PF's to people with standard tickets on a declassified service. Yes, they DO need to check this out - especially when there are two other services between 0800-0902 (0818 and 0846) that are also declassified.

Just as an RPI is trained to detect things, I think I can judge characters well enough to see that he wasn't trying it on. He did immediately pull a timetable to check, and hadn't immediately looked at my ticket and said 'that's standard class' as he would if he was out to make easy money. He even asked if I had another ticket, which sounded silly (why WOULD you have two tickets) but he was presumably playing it by the book.

Maybe I'm wrong to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I was there and didn't get the feeling he was trying anything on, other than being quite convinced the service DID have first class accommodation (in any given day, there are only a handful of declassified services, although nearly all in the peak) but I suspect he was looking up the wrong service or on completely the wrong page/day. To be honest, he was probably somewhat flustered or nervous - especially if he would have known that the PF he had just issued could be incorrect.

I'm usually extremely cynical, but I have no reason to believe they were scamming people or trying it on. But, I'm always willing to stand corrected!!

And neither of them were rude or intimidating either.

Addition; What happens if someone appeals a ticket which is later found (quite easily I'd have thought) to be incorrectly issued. Surely that RPI gets in trouble, especially if it happens over and over. I am by no means unique at knowing which services are declassified - the 0818 and 0846 service is full of these people. It's only because the 0902 is a new service since May that it's not full of people who 'know'.

 

[yorkie]

OK, I accept it was a mistake in this case.

But my point is this: If a customer should be penalised by £20 for a mistake, then an RPI should also be penalised for a mistake (but the penalty should be worse as they should know better, and isn't extracting money when it's not due is a criminal matter?)

If they didn't go round charging passengers for £20 for a mistake and let people off who make mistakes, then I'd be happy for them to also be let off for making a mistake.

Personally I wouldn't want to see anyone penalised for making mistakes as well all do it, as it's human nature (as Jim quite rightly says above).

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps they should have to confirm on the PF exactly what service they were on and specifically declare whether first class was (or wasn't) in operation. In that way, they'd have to check - and risk getting in trouble when the ticket is processed later on.

Likewise, there would be a procedure to type in that service/headcode by the processing team that would automatically cancel an invalid PF. That would at least protect the passenger either way.

Going one stage further, I'm surprised they haven't developed a PDA based system for issuing penalties that could further improve the process (and also enable the checking of details without needing to use a phone), with the person given the ticket signing on the screen - like you do for many 'signed for' postal or courier deliveries.

FWIW, FCC did experiment with stick on signs to say when FC was declassified - but that stopped when I presume someone realised there was now the requirement for somebody to put them up (and take them down). Another solution is a software upgrade for the on-board CIS to periodically scroll a message that first class is declassified, but I am quite sure that most of the people taking advantage of sitting in first class DON'T want the whole train being told!

Or, they make it first class ALL the time - but have the problem of what to do when they replace the train with a 313. Mind you, considering these generally run into Moorgate, why didn't they ever get first class areas?

 

[t0ffeeman]

313s are small enough and cramped rotten without First Class. In the olden days they'd be unit swaps with the NLL, also no first class.

 

[jon0844]

It's obviously too late now seeing as the trains are too old and soon(ish) to be replaced, but with most peak rate services being 6-car, they could easily have had half of one carriage in each set being dedicated to first class. They probably have more people that would want/pay for first class on account of going into the city!

Doing so would have also enabled FCC (or Wagn) to have offered first class on all of its services, which again would have brought more revenue.

When we get new trains, I wonder if they'll have first class?

 

[tony_mac]

he may have made a mistake and been flustered - but he obviously knew that there was a problem when he 'looked it up' in the timetable or he wouldn't want to keep it hidden.

At that point he should have been doing something to try and sort it out - not insisting that he was correct and hiding the evidence from the passenger.

I can easily forgive mistakes, but not dishonestly trying to cover-up those mistakes.

 

[Tom C]

But my point is this: If a customer should be penalised by £20 for a mistake, then an RPI should also be penalised for a mistake (but the penalty should be worse as they should know better, and isn't extracting money when it's not due is a criminal matter?)

Woah!

Easy there tiger!!!!!

Even the very best of us (!!) occassionally make the odd mistake because as you say we are all human!

It was established that there was no 1st class accommodation on the train so his money was reimbursed but........

If they didn't go round charging passengers for £20 for a mistake and let people off who make mistakes, then I'd be happy for them to also be let off for making a mistake.

.... are you saying that if the train DID have 1st class then the inspector would be wrong to issue a Penalty Fare for this journey? This is despite 1st being on the windows in a big blue square with a big 1 in it? On 317's I seem to recall First Class being shown on the entry and exit to the first class section in the middle.

Out of interest what do you constitute as a "mistake"? There are already safeguards against PF's being issued against tickets with an invalid route or against a ticket which is restricted by the type (i.e CD, SV etc) so what else do you concider to be a genuine mistake?

Going one stage further, I'm surprised they haven't developed a PDA based system for issuing penalties that could further improve the process (and also enable the checking of details without needing to use a phone), with the person given the ticket signing on the screen - like you do for many 'signed for' postal or courier deliveries.

WAGN used to issue PF's on the Advantix machine and it does have the facility to issue a Penalty Fare however the row is about how many tickets it takes to actually issue and because of that the PF remains (for Thameslink)/reverted (for WAGN) to pads.

 

[furryfeet]

why not get the ticket collectors to put up the stickers on the windows to tell the passengers when the coach is declassified ?

Everyone would then know what the situation is.

After all, the system of stickers was used for years under BR.

 

[Mojo]

The auto-announcer at Temple Meads last Thursday announced something along the lines of: "First class accommodation may be used by Standard class ticket holders" for a Weymouth service. An Arriva 150 then rolled in

 

[jon0844]

why not get the ticket collectors to put up the stickers on the windows to tell the passengers when the coach is declassified ? Everyone would then know what the situation is.
After all, the system of stickers was used for years under BR.

FCC did try for a while, but presumably there was an issue about who's job it was to put them up and take them down. As RPIs board and alight at random stations to cover various routes, there's no way you could expect them to do it.

There are no guards, and I am quite certain drivers would refuse to have such a duty placed upon them.