PF on capped Oyster Card

[Tony_55]

Hi all,

I recently travelled on First Capital Connect to London for the day. I then used my Oyster card on the tube.

At the end of the day I travelled from West Hampstead Thameslink to St Pancras. When I tried to touch out, my card said 'seek assistance'. I showed the card to a member of staff, they scanned it and told me I was -25p. I asked where I needed to top-up (like you do on the tube if you have a negative balance on exit), and she told me I couldn't as 'we have a different system here' - I had to pay a £20 PF. I explained my Oyster was already capped for the day - she confirmed that (and I have the printout to show it was capped several hours prior).

However, my touch-in at West Hampstead didn't register. I explained I am sure I did touch in (I was with someone who confirmed) but the inspector told me as it hasn't registered I need to pay the PF. I am willing to admit that human error (on my behalf) is the most likely scenario. However, assuming I did make a mistake, I pointed out that my Oyster card was capped already, so therefore I did actually have a ticket. Furthermore I would have no reason to try and fare dodge (I even showed the inspector my rail tickets down to London - also First Capital Connect).

According to the National Rail website - "The Penalty Fares System is designed to protect the majority of customers from the minority of people who travel without a valid ticket for the journey they are making."

Is it reasonable for me to appeal on the grounds that a capped out Oyster card is a valid ticket?

Thanks.

 

[maniacmartin]

Sadly, technically you do not have a ticket if you didn't touch in. That's not to say that they might show discretion though.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If you didn't touch in then it isn't a valid ticket, so technically the PF was correct.

It'd be worth appealing the PF, providing a copy of your Oyster statement and an explanation that you did touch in at West Hampstead and it didn't register, but don't get your hopes up.

 

[hassaanhc]

Unfortunately an Oyster card in negative balance is not valid at all until that is cleared, even if you've reached your cap or hold a season ticket on it. I narrowly avoided a PF at Waterloo last month when I was -£2.10 with a Z1-3 monthly after I left my zones and didn't top up before returning (used paper ticket instead)

 

[redbutton]

It's most likely that you were at -0.25 when you touched in, and the reader at your origin station didn't turn green. Even with a travelcard loaded (and a daily cap is effectively a Travelcard), you can't use the Oyster until you top up before travel. It'll just show "Seek Assistance".

It sucks that this is costing you a £20 PF when some discretion could have been shown, but it's technically correct.

 

[yorkie]

Can you obtain a copy of your journey history for the day? If you've registered online, you can simply take a screenshot. If not, you'll need to go to a station.

Did you make an out of station interchange (OSI) between West Hampstead & West Hampstead Thameslink?

Do you recall if you got the green light and entry sound at West Hampstead Thameslink?

 

[Tony_55]

Thanks all for your advice. It does seem rough that a -25p balance is going to cost me £20 (especially when they have a £5 deposit for the card already, so technically my balance of account would be £4.75)!

I did get a print out of all my journeys, and the West Hampstead Thamselink touch-in doesn't show up. Assuming the machine is never wrong, I must have got the double beep thing and not noticed (seems odd though that neither I, or the person I was, with noticed).

I didn't use the West Hampstead tube OSI - my last journey was to Highgate, and then I was driven to West Hampstead. I will attach the journey information.

I think I will appeal anyway. I understand why the PF is in place, but I do feel that this was a bit heavy handed.

Thanks again.

 

[34D]

This raises some interesting issues (like is a capped oyster a ticket, can the £3 or £5 deposit be 'noted', etc).

Would love to see a case like this go all the way to the court of appeal.

Practical advice though would be to pay and forget.

 

[MikeWh]

Thanks all for your advice. It does seem rough that a -25p balance is going to cost me £20 (especially when they have a £5 deposit for the card already, so technically my balance of account would be £4.75)!

I did get a print out of all my journeys, and the West Hampstead Thamselink touch-in doesn't show up. Assuming the machine is never wrong, I must have got the double beep thing and not noticed (seems odd though that neither I, or the person I was, with noticed).

I didn't use the West Hampstead tube OSI - my last journey was to Highgate, and then I was driven to West Hampstead. I will attach the journey information.

I think I will appeal anyway. I understand why the PF is in place, but I do feel that this was a bit heavy handed.

Thanks again.

You've actually hit an unusual edge condition with your Oyster card on this day. Unfortunately I agree that the PF was correctly issued and you probably have no grounds for appeal. In all likelihood the reader at West Hampstead beeped twice and showed red, a fact that TfL's system ought to show but probably not on your card. What has happened is this:

You've travelled around zones 1 and 2 during the day. On entry at Oxford Circus the system has seen that you have enough money to reach the zone 1-2 daily cap (£7.00) so it has let you in to start that journey. On exit at Highgate (Z3) the system has tried to deduct up to the zone 1-4 daily cap (£7.70) but it hasn't been able to. It will let you out as the Oyster system is fine with the journey that actually takes you negative, but you then can't use the card again until you've topped up. You must have missed the error at West Hampstead and if the gates were open or it was a validator there would be nothing to physically stop you. When you got to St Pancras the gates were presented with an un-validated card with a negative balance and in that situation they will not let you out.

There are two potentially mitigating factors, but unfortunately the better one is controlled by LU so is probably no use in appealing the PF. Do you recall what the display said at Highgate? If it was the old gate hardware then it will just have said "Exit" which doesn't really help you. If it was the new gate hardware then it will also have displayed your journey cost and balance which might have prompted you to top up. The second one is National Rail's greater reliance on validators or open gates. In a busy environment it can be difficult to detect the error signals when there is no physical barrier to entry.

My gut instinct on this one is to pay the PF (to avoid any chance of it escallating) then write to FCC customer services explaining what happened. If the Highgate gates were the old style then include this as the reason why you were unaware that your card had gone negative. Complain that the lack of a physical barrier at West Hampstead put a greater reliance on you noticing the error on the display and absolutely mention if it was indeed busy at the time. Include details of your other FCC tickets and point out that FCC haven't lost any money at all because they will get their share of your capped journeys for that day. Finally ask that in the light of all this, would they be prepared to refund the PF.

I don't hold out much hope, but good luck anyway. If they refuse you could see if local media might be interested in the "grabbing extra £20 on a technicality" story, but try customer services first.

 

[Tony_55]

I can't remember if Highgate has the old or new style barriers - I will try to ask around and see if anyone in that area can check for me.

I didn't realise you could pay the PF later? I told the inspector I had a train to catch and she told me that I had to pay the £20 - there was no mention of paying it later! She did give me an address to send an appeal to though.

I will appeal to the address she gave, plus write to FCC. I'll report back and let everyone know how it goes.

 

[455driver]

You need to follow the advice MikeWH (who knows one or 2 things about the Oyster system ) and pay the penalty fare first then appeal.

If you dont pay the penalty fare but do appeal then the PF will escalate towards a Court case which you really need to avoid, an ongoing appeal does not change the fact that the PF needs to be paid within a few days, this is a point that some people forget/choose to ignore hoping it will go away.

A PF is for somebody who has made an honest mistake so is the correct course of action in your case, even if it does seem a bit over the top, the Company may decide to use discretion bearing in mind you had reached the daily cap but the fact you had then gone out of your capped zones and so into negative balance will work against you.

Pay the PF which you will have to pay regardless and then appeal, you have nothing to lose except a couple of stamps.

 

[MikeWh]

I can't remember if Highgate has the old or new style barriers - I will try to ask around and see if anyone in that area can check for me.

I didn't realise you could pay the PF later? I told the inspector I had a train to catch and she told me that I had to pay the £20 - there was no mention of paying it later! She did give me an address to send an appeal to though.

I will appeal to the address she gave, plus write to FCC. I'll report back and let everyone know how it goes.

You should be offered the option of paying at least the single fare for the journey made with the remainder to be paid within 14 days. It's disappointing that that wasn't made clear and could be added to the complaint letter.

 

[jon0844]

Is it correct that you paid the £20 there and then? At least that's good - and now you can immediately appeal, although I might suggest writing to FCC Customer Service rather than going through the appeals service as I think you'd fail a regular appeal.

However, if the details were explained as have been given here, you may well get the money back as a goodwill gesture.

If nothing else, it would be interesting to see what FCC thinks about the situation. Not everyone might hear the beeps, and I don't even think gates with displays show information for very long. What's more, there are many different designs so it's not always clear where to look (ahead or down by the reader).

It's great to have the reason given on here by a VERY knowledgeable chap, but this only goes to show the many 'problems' with Oyster.

Finally, thank goodness you didn't refuse the PF. Otherwise you may have found yourself being reported for prosecution!

Good luck anyway.

 

[34D]

If you have indeed paid, I would be tempted to email TfL to see if they can confirm the failed touch-in at West Hampstead Thameslink.

If nothing else, it would be a good case to refer to London TravelWatch (if FCC don't play ball)

 

[swt_passenger]

If you have indeed paid, I would be tempted to email TfL to see if they can confirm the failed touch-in at West Hampstead Thameslink.

If nothing else, it would be a good case to refer to London TravelWatch (if FCC don't play ball)

Even if there'd been a whole load of cash on the PAYG card, a fail to touch in in these circumstances would have led to an unresolved (unstarted) journey 'maximum cash fare' being charged, irrespective of capping status.

Do TfL routinely refund these charges if people ask? IIRC they do explain somewhere that any max cash fares charged are outside the capping process.

 

[MikeWh]

Even if there'd been a whole load of cash on the PAYG card, a fail to touch in in these circumstances would have led to an unresolved (unstarted) journey 'maximum cash fare' being charged, irrespective of capping status.

Do TfL routinely refund these charges if people ask? IIRC they do explain somewhere that any max cash fares charged are outside the capping process.

If there had been loads of cash on the card then the touch in would not have failed. It only failed because the card balance was negative.

Maximum fares are outside the capping process, but they will usually refund or adjust them if given a plausible explanation as to why they occured. In this case there is no maximum fare because it was a touch in which was refused.

 

[infobleep]

I was under the impression that if you forget to touch in and notice later, they will refund. This can only be done once a month. The same occurs if you forget to touch out.

It actually happened to me. I thought I had touched in but I hadn't. I can only spot this by checking my journey history as I have a gold card on my Oyster Card. I rang up and got a refund.

The impression I also get is that they are happy to refund you if they don't catch you breaking the regulations on route. If they do you will be fined. I don't know which they would prefer to happen to people who make mistakes.

I know politicians are keen for people not to be unfairly charged for genuine mistakes. Well that's what I seem to remember reading in the Evenings Standard.

Please correct me if I'm wrong on any points.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[Flamingo]

... I know politicians are keen for voters not to be unfairly charged for genuine mistakes...

There you go, fixed that for you

 

[infobleep]

There you go, fixed that for you

Yes that did cross my mind as I typed it. Lol.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[yorkie]

I was under the impression that if you forget to touch in and notice later, they will refund. This can only be done once a month. The same occurs if you forget to touch out.

It actually happened to me. I thought I had touched in but I hadn't. I can only spot this by checking my journey history as I have a gold card on my Oyster Card. I rang up and got a refund.

I agree that there is a good possibility of getting a maximum fare deduction refunded, however I can't actually see any fare charged for the journey on the journey history uploaded by the OP. Edit: it appears he was unable to touch out at St Pancras as he didn't have enough money to be charged a maximum fare (and was, in fact, let out without a charge on his Oyster card) and therefore there is nothing to contact the Oyster helpline to be refunded.


Maybe I'm missing something?

The impression I also get is that they are happy to refund you if they don't catch you breaking the regulations on route. If they do you will be fined. I don't know which they would prefer to happen to people who make mistakes.

I think you're a bit confused. Who is "they"? And when you use the term fine, are you referring to a maximum Oyster fare, or a Penalty Fare? The former can indeed be refunded by the Oyster helpdesk, and I assume is what you are saying happened to you. The latter is a very different matter and is nothing at all to do with the Oyster Helpdesk and would be a matter for appealing, in this case, to FCC.

I know politicians are keen for people not to be unfairly charged for genuine mistakes. Well that's what I seem to remember reading in the Evenings Standard.

Please correct me if I'm wrong on any points.

It depends on what you mean by "unfairly charged". Penalty Fares are going to be subjective. In this case it was, for certain, correct. Whether it was fair or not is a matter of opinion.

 

[infobleep]

May be I am confusing matters but I was expanding the conversation slightly wider. If you didn't touch in accidentally but had the funds to do so and your Oyster card got checked, would you get a penalty fare? If you would, why not automatically issue them to everyone who forgets to touch in regardless of whether they get checked on route or not. The information is known in all cases.

If you wouldn't get a penalty fare in such situations then I'm totally wrong.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[bb21]

would you get a penalty fare?

I believe you could.

 

[redbutton]

I believe you could.

Especially on FCC. They have signage everywhere and announcements that play over the tannoy to remind people that if they don't touch in, they're liable for penalty fares.

However, if you manage to complete your journey without encountering a RPI, then assuming you have enough PAYG credit you can touch out at the barriers for a maximum fare without having to speak to anyone (and risk getting a PF). I know this because I've done it when forgetting to touch in after topping up at a TVM.

Then, if you don't do it too often, you can apply for an Oyster refund online or by phone.

 

[infobleep]

Isn't the PF on overground £80? So if they catch you on route it's £80 charge, otherwise you can claim the extra you paid afterwards.

I guess your intentions are unknown on the train. However a check of one's journey history would soon show whether they often did touch in and out correctly. It's not easy to determine so perhaps it's cheaper to just to issue a charge.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[hassaanhc]

May be I am confusing matters but I was expanding the conversation slightly wider. If you didn't touch in accidentally but had the funds to do so and your Oyster card got checked, would you get a penalty fare? If you would, why not automatically issue them to everyone who forgets to touch in regardless of whether they get checked on route or not. The information is known in all cases.

If you wouldn't get a penalty fare in such situations then I'm totally wrong.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

It would be a PF situation as the Oyster card isn't valid unless it's been touched in, otherwise what is there to stop someone claiming they got on closer than they actually did?

Anyway, you do have to be very careful with standalone validators, make sure that it actually registers. Yesterday I saw someone on the DLR saying they touched in but it hadn't been accepted as they only had 60p on it which isn't enough.

 

[yorkie]

May be I am confusing matters but I was expanding the conversation slightly wider. If you didn't touch in accidentally but had the funds to do so and your Oyster card got checked, would you get a penalty fare?

You are liable for a Penalty Fare in these circumstances, yes.

If you would, why not automatically issue them to everyone who forgets to touch in regardless of whether they get checked on route or not. The information is known in all cases.

I do not agree that a Penalty Fare should automatically be issued by the system for someone who fails to touch in but who does touch out. Penalty Fares can only be issued by authorised collectors, and for good reason. I will give just one example why this is not a good idea: I once touched in with Oyster Card A, and touched out with Oyster Card B. My mistake, so two maximum fares. I was not liable to a PF though, as I was touched in. If I had been inspected and presented the wrong card, I could have corrected the error. Your proposals would have seen me charged a maximum fare on one card, and a Penalty Fare on the other, for which I'd not have had the funds anyway!

Isn't the PF on overground £80? So if they catch you on route it's £80 charge

Yes you are liable for a Penalty Fare and yes on the Overground it's £80 (reduced to £40 if paid within 21 days).

otherwise you can claim the extra you paid afterwards.

You can request a journey be 'resolved' by contacting the Oyster Helpdesk and, assuming they have no reason not to, arrange for a refund of the difference. This has absolutely nothing to do with the issuing of a Penalty Fare. In the OP's case, no charge was made from his Oyster Card for the journey in question.

I guess your intentions are unknown on the train. However a check of one's journey history would soon show whether they often did touch in and out correctly. It's not easy to determine so perhaps it's cheaper to just to issue a charge.

I disagree that the charge for a maximum fare when touching out should be increased to the level of a PF, for the reasons I've stated above.

 

[infobleep]

I understand the OPs case is different. Currently then there's nothing to stop people from not touching in at the start of their journey and afterwards claiming they touched in at a later point of their journey, so long as they don't get caught on route and only do it once a month.

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[island]

Unfortunately it does appear that the penalty fare has been correctly issued on this occasion, if slightly irregularly due to the request to pay in full on the spot rather than paying the single fare then and the balance within 21 days.