PF from station I didn't start at

[trivran]

To cut down a long-ish story, I was issued a penalty fare at Cambridge station for producing no ticket. I was refused sale at Tottenham Hale of a Waltham Cross - Cambridge child super off-peak return (the rest would've been covered on Oyster) and requested access to the ticket office upon arrival at Cambridge, where I was directed to an RPI who issued me a penalty fare from Kings Cross and then London Terminals despite being told my story at least 3 times.

His grasp of English wasn't the best but from what I could make out he believed that I would have to travel to Kings Cross to get to Cambridge and so that was where I would've jumped on without buying a ticket, which I'm guessing is why he didn't believe my story of being refused sale. Plausible enough except I arrived on a GA service.

I also wasn't pleased with the way he gained my parents' phone number, being threatened with the BTP if I didn't comply. As far as I was aware I had no obligation to give it to him.

Help please? Fair enough if I still owe them the Tottenham Hale/Waltham Cross - Cambridge fare for not buying from a TVM.

 

[Mojo]

Capital Connect staff at Cambridge have no authority to charge Penalty fares to customers of Greater Anglia. This is stated in the documents for the approved Penalty fare schemes for both companies here: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/penalty_fares_2

Greater Anglia TVMs do not sell tickets from other locations; so you were unable to buy the ticket you required at your origin. What reason was given for refusing you sale?

 

[trc666]

Did you try the manned ticket office at Tottenham Hale as well or did you just try the TVM?

 

[Mojo]

Did you try the manned ticket office at Tottenham Hale as well or did you just try the TVM?

I thought he said he was refused sale?

I'm assuming you have a Travelcard that includes at least zone 7

 

[Be3G]

Also, I'd be interested to know which ticket office was used at Tottenham Hale, as there's the National Rail one and the London Underground one. My concern is that perhaps the poster tried the LUL one, which can't offer all NR tickets… and that if the NR one was also open at the time, there might be an (unreasonable?) expectation to queue up again to try the NR office.

 

[island]

I thought he said he was refused sale?

I'm assuming you have a Travelcard that includes at least zone 7

It seems that he has a Zip card.

 

[Deerfold]

It seems that he has a Zip card.

But we'd need to know if the OP has a travelcard loaded on it or leapt off at Waltham Cross to touch out.

 

[trivran]

Thanks for all responses so far.

With regards to which ticket office I used at Tottenham, when I arrived the NR ticket office was unmanned (but blimey there was a large amount of muscle manning the entrances to the platforms) so I tapped on the window a few times, waited a few minutes and went to the LU ticket queue. Was about to ask if they knew where the NR person was when she turned up at the NR window.

I asked for the ticket and she asked how I was getting to Waltham Cross, fair dos, told her I was using Oyster (At the time it was the older yellow/blue 11-15 type, yes, it has a travelcard covering zone 7 on it) and she said it wasn't valid. She maintained so even after I said it had been since the 2nd of January.

Capital Connect staff at Cambridge have no authority to charge Penalty fares to customers of Greater Anglia. This is stated in the documents for the approved Penalty fare schemes for both companies here: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/penalty_fares_2

Greater Anglia TVMs do not sell tickets from other locations; so you were unable to buy the ticket you required at your origin. What reason was given for refusing you sale?

Interesting, that. Seen here that FCC are authorised to collect GA Penalty Fares, though I suppose that might apply to other stations.

Reason given was pretty much that I had to go up to Broxbourne for whatever reason.

 

[maniacmartin]

It is possible that FCC's PF scheme may have changed since the FOI request was made, over a year ago.

Reason given was pretty much that I had to go up to Broxbourne for whatever reason.

I'm confused as to what you mean by this

 

[trivran]

As in the woman manning the NR ticket office told me I had to go up to Broxbourne to buy the Waltham Cross ticket.

 

[Stigy]

I also wasn't pleased with the way he gained my parents' phone number, being threatened with the BTP if I didn't comply. As far as I was aware I had no obligation to give it to him.

You didn't have to supply this. All you are obliged to supply is your name and address.

 

[Deerfold]

You didn't have to supply this. All you are obliged to supply is your name and address.

And equally, people shouldn't be threatened with BTP simply for not providing information they're not obliged to do.

 

[trentside]

As in the woman manning the NR ticket office told me I had to go up to Broxbourne to buy the Waltham Cross ticket.

This is nonsense on her part. Any National Rail ticket office must offer a full range of tickets from any station on the network, so you should have been able to buy the Waltham Cross ticket from Tottenham Hale - if you have not already done so, you should submit a complaint to Greater Anglia about this.

This is not the first issue of GA offices refusing to offer a full range of tickets, although this was a slightly different issue.

 

[trivran]

You didn't have to supply this. All you are obliged to supply is your name and address.

I did think as much. Not the first time I've been told the BTP are coming down - had the same issue a month previous. If they ever did come, they certainly took their time, I was at the station a good hour at least.

This is nonsense on her part. Any National Rail ticket office must offer a full range of tickets from any station on the network, so you should have been able to buy the Waltham Cross ticket from Tottenham Hale - if you have not already done so, you should submit a complaint to Greater Anglia about this.

This is not the first issue of GA offices refusing to offer a full range of tickets, although this was a slightly different issue.

That's at least consistent with what the GA ticket office at Stratford is like - refusing to sell tickets from Liverpool Street. Shall submit a complaint.

 

[Swirlz]

Although there appears to be no obligation to provide extended information about yourself - it could make the difference between an RPI deciding to initiate a Byelaw 18 prosecution, rather than the alternative disposal method of a Penalty Fare.

If a TOC decides they prefer certain information to be obtained for them to issue and collect on a Penalty Fare, and that information is refused, they are perfectly entitled to commence other action.

 

[jb]

Although there appears to be no obligation to provide extended information about yourself - it could make the difference between an RPI deciding to initiate a Byelaw 18 prosecution, rather than the alternative disposal method of a Penalty Fare.

If a TOC decides they prefer certain information to be obtained for them to issue and collect on a Penalty Fare, and that information is refused, they are perfectly entitled to commence other action.

Whilst this is trivially true, a TOC and/or its RPIs are on pretty shaky ground if the (non-)provision of information to which they are not entitled makes a material difference to the application of their "discretion".

In practice such will usually be unproven and unproveable, of course, but if say a RPI were recorded "<asking for> my parents' phone number, being threatened with the BTP if I didn't comply..." they would deserve to be in fairly serious trouble.

 

[island]

Whilst this is trivially true, a TOC and/or its RPIs are on pretty shaky ground if the (non-)provision of information to which they are not entitled makes a material difference to the application of their "discretion".

In practice such will usually be unproven and unproveable, of course, but if say a RPI were recorded "<asking for> my parents' phone number, being threatened with the BTP if I didn't comply..." they would deserve to be in fairly serious trouble.

I am not sure that this is true in practice. Authorized Collectors are obliged to apply discretion in whether or not to charge a penalty fare, but not in whether or not to open a report for prosecution.

 

[Wolfie]

I am not sure that this is true in practice. Authorized Collectors are obliged to apply discretion in whether or not to charge a penalty fare, but not in whether or not to open a report for prosecution.

I am sure you are right. However, a TOC which asked for a whole load of potentially unnecessary information just becaise it felt like it could well find that it is having some extremely uncomfortable discussions with the Information Commissioner.

 

[W230]

I am sure you are right. However, a TOC which asked for a whole load of potentially unnecessary information just becaise it felt like it could well find that it is having some extremely uncomfortable discussions with the Information Commissioner.

Slightly off topic but I can't help but think this is the way of all companies now. I was absolutely amazed to find out having changed energy providers that the new provider required my date of birth and place of birth amongst other personal details, that without which I couldn't set up an online account (they also asked for my date of birth on the phone as I hadn't supplied it prior to going online).

All the easier to trace non bill payers further down the line - or am I just being cynical?

 

[island]

I am sure you are right. However, a TOC which asked for a whole load of potentially unnecessary information just becaise it felt like it could well find that it is having some extremely uncomfortable discussions with the Information Commissioner.

I had a 14-month battle with the Data Protection Commissioner (in Ireland) over the data which my university unnecessarily retained about me after I graduated. And am currently involved in a difference of opinion with a foreign exchange service who insisted on taking a copy of my passport before I collected money I ordered online.

 

[Stigy]

You didn't have to supply this. All you are obliged to supply is your name and address.

I agree....Unfortunately I see it all the time. Not sure whether it's the sfaff member's training, or them being overzelous

 

[RPI]

I think the RPI was wrong to demand that you provide a parent phone number also, they can ask you for it but they cannot demand it, the only thing you are legally required to provide are your name and address and I would also say that you should provide a parent or guardians name if you are under 18.

 

[Stigy]

I think the RPI was wrong to demand that you provide a parent phone number also, they can ask you for it but they cannot demand it, the only thing you are legally required to provide are your name and address and I would also say that you should provide a parent or guardians name if you are under 18.

Still not obliged to by law, regardless of age. If under 16 the the TOC has a duty of care, so although the passenger doesn't have to prove them, it's worth the staff member pushing for guardian details.

 

[trivran]

I agree....Unfortunately I see it all the time. Not sure whether it's the sfaff member's training, or them being overzelous

Not to be rude but did it occur to you that you were quoting yourself?

 

[Squaddie]

And am currently involved in a difference of opinion with a foreign exchange service who insisted on taking a copy of my passport before I collected money I ordered online.

It is a regulatory requirement to carry out "due diligence" (i.e. being certain who your customers are) in the financial services sector, and for a casual high-risk transaction such as the purchase of foreign currency the most common way is to take a copy of the customer's passport or driving licence. There is little point challenging it (nor can I really see any reason why you would want to).

 

[island]

It is a regulatory requirement to carry out "due diligence" (i.e. being certain who your customers are) in the financial services sector, and for a casual high-risk transaction such as the purchase of foreign currency the most common way is to take a copy of the customer's passport or driving licence. There is little point challenging it (nor can I really see any reason why you would want to).

Only if the amount is over a certain threshold or you are opening an account, however. Additionally, the institution in question was one with which I had an account and had the relevant documentation on file. I won't go on further as it would be off-topic.

 

[trivran]

Well, I received a reply to my appeal today and it was unsuccessful, sadly. Interestingly there is now no 'Station From', so how they can charge me for travelling to Cambridge from nowhere is beyond me.

Letter began with the standard 'Passengers are advised of penalty fares, code of practice' etc., and then this:

I understand that it was thought acceptable to buy a ticket on the train or at the destination station as this facility has been available before.

..except I never said that it'd been available before.

The letter also included a line with regards to how they had checked the signage at the origin station (which I hadn't disputed) and that there was indeed the facility to buy a ticket. Contrasts with my tale, anyway. There most definitely was the facility to buy a ticket but not the one I wanted. I suppose I shall have to write back and such.

 

[Stigy]

Not to be rude but did it occur to you that you were quoting yourself?

How strange...I'm not mad, I meant to quote Deerfold in the following comment...

And equally, people shouldn't be threatened with BTP simply for not providing information they're not obliged to do.

 

[Realfish]

Well, I received a reply to my appeal today and it was unsuccessful, sadly. Interestingly there is now no 'Station From', so how they can charge me for travelling to Cambridge from nowhere is beyond me.

Letter began with the standard 'Passengers are advised of penalty fares, code of practice' etc., and then this:

..except I never said that it'd been available before.

The letter also included a line with regards to how they had checked the signage at the origin station (which I hadn't disputed) and that there was indeed the facility to buy a ticket. Contrasts with my tale, anyway. There most definitely was the facility to buy a ticket but not the one I wanted. I suppose I shall have to write back and such.

It strikes me that FCC (?) are digging a hole for themselves. From what you say, it seems that they have failed to take note of and properly consider your appeal, which is a requirement of the scheme and also a requirement in common law.

 

[Tom C]

Capital Connect staff at Cambridge have no authority to charge Penalty fares to customers of Greater Anglia. This is stated in the documents for the approved Penalty fare schemes for both companies here: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/penalty_fares_2

Greater Anglia TVMs do not sell tickets from other locations; so you were unable to buy the ticket you required at your origin. What reason was given for refusing you sale?

FCC can and do issue Penalty Fares for Greater Anglia and have done since the beginning of the FCC franchise. It is written on the back of warrants for all inspectors.

If under 16 the the TOC has a duty of care, so although the passenger doesn't have to prove them, it's worth the staff member pushing for guardian details.

Penalty Fare notices have a section for the name of a parent or guardian if the notice is being issued to a minor.