PF for using off-peak ticket on peak-rate train

[AlterEgo]

My concern is passengers being convinced by a Train Manager they are in the wrong and then parting with money they needn't have paid. That is very close to illegal behaviour on the part of a Train Manager. For those reasons I've escalated my complaint to Passenger Focus.

Good point, and yes people might be misled into thinking they have an invalid ticket, but if you were a TM how would you advise a train-load of around 450 passengers of their ticket validities?

What have Passenger Focus said? (Or have you not heard from them?)

 

[Flamingo]

Good point, and yes people might be misled into thinking they have an invalid ticket, but if you were a TM how would you advise a train-load of around 450 passengers of their ticket validities?

What have Passenger Focus said? (Or have you not heard from them?)

That is the problem.

 

[AlterEgo]

That is the problem.

Exactly - no matter what you say, there may be a few people on the train it doesn't apply to. The only alternative is to say nothing and 'mercilessly' ching the unsuspecting for the correct fare.

The problem says far more about ATOC and their approach to simple ticketing than it does about rail staff, though.

 

[tony_mac]

I agree that it's difficult - but both the screens at Paddington and the announcements I have heard do not say anything about 'from London'.

The problem is the equivocal nature of the screens and announcements. They say 'Off-peak tickets are not valid on this service'.
At least on the concourse they could say something like 'Most off-peak tickets are not valid, please ask staff' (it's probably a bit late once you are onboard anyway)

 

[bnm]

What have Passenger Focus said? (Or have you not heard from them?)

Complaint only just lodged with them. The incident where I was incorrectly UPFN'd and threatened with the transport bizzies was some months ago. I let the matter lie after FGW looked into it (up to a very senior management level) and I was assured that the matter would be investigated before any decisions on changing the announcements or screens was made. A follow up letter last month after I'd twice heard these incorrect announcements had me asking what was the outcome of the investigation. I got a totally inadequate response saying an internal review had taken place and FGW had decided that no further action as necessary. For that reason I've escalated to Passenger Focus this past week.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree that it's difficult - but both the screens at Paddington and the announcements I have heard do not say anything about 'from London'.

Unfortunately, that wouldn't be true either. There are still many Off Peak fares to/from London Terminals that are valid on PAD fasts in the evening peak.

 

[premier01]

All ticket restrictions? Really? That's an impressive PA!!!

My point was that there are numerous Off Peak tickets which ARE valid in the evening peak on fast services off PAD. It's wrong for the screens at PAD and the TM prior to departure to state, "Off Peak tickets are not valid on this service."

I've tried to get FGW to change this incorrect information, but still it continues. I was threatened with BTP and/or ejection when a TM tried to excess me even though I held a valid ticket. I had to accept a UPFN and give my details, something that makes me bloody angry when I know I'm not travelling on an invalid ticket. In fact on this occasion I'd double checked with a ticket clerk and got a print out of the restriction relevant to my ticket. Th TM refused point blank to either check her Avantix or call control. Her reasoning? "I've been doing this job 21 years, I know I'm right."
I just hope she got a meeting without coffee after my UPFN was, quite rightly, cancelled.

I'm savvy, I check my validity carefully. As I said, these incorrect announcements on screens an PA continue. My concern is passengers being convinced by a Train Manager they are in the wrong and then parting with money they needn't have paid. That is very close to illegal behaviour on the part of a Train Manager. For those reasons I've escalated my complaint to Passenger Focus.

Good summary

 

[Flamingo]

Just curious (so I don't fall into the same trap ) - what was the journey, ticket held, and train time?

 

[jon0844]

Here's the audio recording from Potters Bar;

View attachment PottersBar-OffPeakPenalty.m4a.zip (Apologies for the ZIP file, but .m4a files can't be attached on this forum)

 

[yorkie]

Here's the audio recording from Potters Bar;

View attachment 8094 (Apologies for the ZIP file, but .m4a files can't be attached on this forum)

FCC have had the chance to fix this and failed, therefore contact Passenger Focus and London Travelwatch, and you can also contact ATOC about them still referring to "Cheap Day" tickets, which is against ATOC guidance, they are not supposed to refer to the old names, and more importantly I am concerned at how the 09.31 is described "peak period service" is that what he says?! There is no such thing! Many Off Peak tickets are valid on this train. Also he says "the first train that is accepting off peak tickets..." that's wrong because Off Peak tickets are also valid on earlier trains.

I'd also suggest contacting the DfT, and your MP, if it's still not sorted.

People may say I am going OTT, but no, FCC have had months to resolve this, have failed to recognise the problem, have failed to resolve it, and they're spreading misleading information that may unnecessarily scare passengers with valid tickets. Even if passengers have invalid tickets, a PF cannot be charged and FCC are in breach of PF legislation if they are charging PFs in these circumstances.

Again, I suggest contacting the DfT informing them FCC are in breach of the PF legislation and request if they can have their PF scheme revoked if it's not resolved promptly and if assurances are given that this will not occur anywhere else on their network again.

I am happy to proof read letters.

However, before doing the above, I've asked a couple of people in positions of authority if they can assist without having to resort to these measures. I'll let you know how I get on....

 

[button_boxer]

This is where the proposal mentioned on another thread of putting the two character restriction code on the ticket would be handy. "off peak tickets with codes 1A and 2B are not valid..."

 

[All Line Rover]

FCC have had the chance to fix this and failed, therefore contact Passenger Focus and London Travelwatch, and you can also contact ATOC about them still referring to "Cheap Day" tickets, which is against ATOC guidance, they are not supposed to refer to the old names, and more importantly I am concerned at how the 09.31 is described "peak period service" is that what he says?! There is no such thing! Many Off Peak tickets are valid on this train. Also he says "the first train that is accepting off peak tickets..." that's wrong because Off Peak tickets are also valid on earlier trains.

I don't think what he's saying is incorrect per se. Potters Bar to London King's Cross CDR's ("Cheap Day tickets," whatever) are not valid on this service. Off-Peak Travelcards are also not valid on this service.

Similar manual announcements are made at Manchester Piccadilly - e.g. "The next train to depart from Platform 7 is the [09:35] Virgin Trains service to London Euston. This is the first Off-Peak train to London." (Even though it isn't if you have a ticket from Lancaster.)

It would be very long winded for the announcer to say: "This is the first Off-Peak train to London for customers holding Manchester to London tickets. Tickets from other stations to London may be valid on this train." (It might also encourage people to look for tickets that can be used on earlier services! )

It is reasonable for announcers to assume that customers have tickets from the station where the announcement is being made. With regards to Potters Bar, however, it is not reasonable to call the train a "peak time service," as this can cause additional confusion. The main problem comes when RPI's won't accept Off-Peak tickets that are valid on the train.

 

[island]

It is reasonable for announcers to assume that customers have tickets from the station where the announcement is being made.

But what about where some off-peak tickets are valid and others aren't?

 

[yorkie]

I don't think what he's saying is incorrect per se. Potters Bar to London King's Cross CDR's ("Cheap Day tickets," whatever) are not valid on this service. Off-Peak Travelcards are also not valid on this service.

Is is incorrect.:roll:

Travelcard - correct, that's about the only correct claim made here!

Cheap Day - no longer exists!

But he says a train is a "peak trip period service" which is nonsense!

He says that passengers with invalid tickets are "liable to an added penalty fare" this is incorrect, if you hold an invalid ticket due to a time restriction a PF cannot be charged!

He also says "The first service that is accepting off peak tickets is ..." but that's incorrect. It is correct for some off peak tickets, but not for other off peak tickets, for example ALL off peak tickets to anywhere outside the Network Area is valid on earlier trains, and SOME off peak tickets to places inside the Network Area are valid (e.g. the return portion of an Ashford to Potters Bar would be valid on the 0931 to give just one example, anyone holding such a ticket may be led to believe they are liable to a PF which is nonsense).

Similar manual announcements are made at Manchester Piccadilly - e.g. "The next train to depart from Platform 7 is the [09:35] Virgin Trains service to London Euston. This is the first Off-Peak train to London." (Even though it isn't if you have a ticket from Lancaster.)

okay that's not ideal wording but it's hardly in the same league as the FCC announcement, for one thing it doesn't give old ticket names, for another it will only affect people with selected origins who are unlikely to take that route, and it also doesn't make threats that passengers will be liable to extra charges beyond an excess.

It would be very long winded for the announcer to say: "This is the first Off-Peak train to London for customers holding Manchester to London tickets. Tickets from other stations to London may be valid on this train." (It might also encourage people to look for tickets that can be used on earlier services! )

The first part would suffice, or even simply "This is the first off peak service to London from Manchester" (if anyone had a different origin and wasn't sure they could check).

It is reasonable for announcers to assume that customers have tickets from the station where the announcement is being made.

You've destroyed your argument above then!

With regards to Potters Bar, however, it is not reasonable to call the train a "peak time service," as this can cause additional confusion. The main problem comes when RPI's won't accept Off-Peak tickets that are valid on the train.

Yes but it's still unfair on people to be unnecessarily worrying just as their train pulls in that they may not be valid! Some people may decide not to take the train and miss an onward connection due to the fear of getting a PF.

 

[All Line Rover]

But what about where some off-peak tickets are valid and others aren't?

But that opens a can of worms! Almost any train before 10:30am is valid on certain tickets but not on others.

 

[island]

Indeed it does. Which is why simple announcements such as "this is the first train on which off-peak tickets are valid" are never that simple!

 

[philjo]

An Off-peak return (SVR) Potters Bar to Swindon is valid on the 08:15 departure from Paddington so to do that journey you would need to be on the 06:47 from Potters Bar !

The announcement would be clearer & cover most passengers if it said that off-peak travelcards or off-peak tickets issued to London Terminals were not valid on the 09:31.

 

[jon0844]

Why not just say that SOME passengers with off-peak tickets or travelcards may be liable to pay a surcharge/excess on this service.

The words SOME and MAY would surely cover everything and at the very least get people to check. In the case of Potters Bar, it's a manual announcement so it's easy to actually ask the person doing the announcement for clarification. And instead of penalty fare, say surcharge/excess.

The phrase 'invalid ticket' could technically be right for a PF, if it turned out you boarded with a ticket from a different origin or destination, an old date, a bus ticket or whatever. I wonder if FCC is being sneaky in adding that text to the end, and can argue the two things are separate and customers simply misunderstood. Of course, that's downright underhand as there's no reason to bring up tickets that are totally invalid on ANY train - it's irrelevant, or at the very least should be separated into a different announcement about penalty fares in general.

They no longer say anything at Hatfield (they used to say something similar a few years back) but I guess Potters Bar is odd in that a peak train is departing AFTER 0930 (which is when people consider they can use their ticket). Of course, FCC is saying it's trains due to arrive before 1000 in the timetable.

That train has no such announcement at Finsbury Park, where it's obviously a lot later again - and, like Potters Bar, you could get through the gates with any ticket. I wonder what they do at King's Cross if the gates stop you? Do they give a PF there?

 

[Jock]

Why not just stamp the bleeding thing if it has the correct date on it? This railway is a public service, not a business.

Too many restrictions in full or in part across the whole network, no wonder people get confused with them

 

[MikeWh]

This railway is a public service, not a business.

Sadly that is completely untrue. The privatised railway is a business.

 

[philjo]

That train has no such announcement at Finsbury Park, where it's obviously a lot later again - and, like Potters Bar, you could get through the gates with any ticket. I wonder what they do at King's Cross if the gates stop you? Do they give a PF there?

At Finsbury Park (& stations out to Hadley Wood etc) the off-peak fare to London terminals is for Oyster PAYG & is valid on services after 09:30 so it would be valid on this train from Finsbury Park to Kings Cross (as are off-peak travelcards).

There is no off-peak paper ticket from Finsbury Park to London Terminals - only the anytime fares.

 

[jon0844]

Ah, got it. This is presumably what will happen at Potters Bar (and all other stations to WGC) when it becomes part of the zones.

I have spoken to more staff that confirm May as the target day to have Oyster acceptance, BEFORE the Olympics.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why not just stamp the bleeding thing if it has the correct date on it?

You must be new here.

 

[jon0844]

It's been a while since I've taken this train, but I did so this morning and there was no manual announcement to tell anyone that they could be liable to a penalty fare by boarding the 0931 service to King's Cross.

Was the person off sick/holiday, or have they finally accepted it was wrong and done something about it?

Instead, there's now a new message on the CIS screen that says 'PEAK TICKETS ONLY ON THIS TRAIN'.

Ignore the 'On Time' bit, given the train arrived two minutes late!! I mean, you can't expect the screens to be that informative.

 

[Yew]

I didn't know we had peak tickets now, I've heard of anytime, advance off peak and super off peak... By never peaks

 

[jon0844]

Do you expect accurate information from these screens?

When we came back to Gatwick from the US last Sunday, the screen was telling people that the train was to London Bridge and all it said was 'check associated page'. Erm, what page? And associated page in what exactly?

I presume it meant refer to a page in the timetable, or some other documentation, but it meant bugger all to me.. although obviously I knew about the weekend shutdown of the core.

FCC likes to also use the screens to tell people to check the website, as they must assume that everyone has a phone with Internet access now. So it's better to say 'Engineering work. Check website' instead of scrolling any actual details of what said engineering work might be.

It's downright lazy if you ask me (but you didn't!!).

 

[bb21]

Maybe a letter of correspondence to FCC asking for clarification as to the definition of "Peak Tickets" would generate an interesting response.

 

[jon0844]

It will most likely get a response that is totally incorrect, like the recent explanation that the free FCC scratchcards can only be used north of Blackfriars!

It might be amusing, but who has the time to waste asking?

 

[PR1Berske]

The confusion over off-peak tickets would be resolved if the TOCs said what they meant on posters etc.