PF for using off-peak ticket on peak-rate train

[jon0844]

It's common knowledge that if you get 'caught' using an off-peak ticket in the evening peak, you'll be excessed the difference in fare and cannot be given a penalty fare.

On that basis, why does the man at Potters Bar (manual announcements, NOT Atos Anne) repeatedly announce the 0931 to KGX as being a peak train and anyone with an off-peak ticket being liable to pay a penalty fare?

Surely that's not possible?

As it happens, the service itself seems to have been a favourite with RPIs who wait until it has passed Hatfield and then go on the hunt for people who boarded with an off-peak ticket.

Given both Hatfield and Potters Bar have a train that goes before that is an off-peak train (to Moorgate), people can buy off-peak tickets before 0930. Now fair enough, you hit them if they ignore the warnings (not that Hatfield has any equivalent announcement) but with a PF?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I doubt that an announcer really understands Penalty Fares rules and is probably reading from a piece of paper that has been provided by the TOC/management.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's common knowledge that if you get 'caught' using an off-peak ticket in the evening peak, you'll be excessed the difference in fare and cannot be given a penalty fare.

On that basis, why does the man at Potters Bar (manual announcements, NOT Atos Anne) repeatedly announce the 0931 to KGX as being a peak train and anyone with an off-peak ticket being liable to pay a penalty fare?

Surely that's not possible?

Anything's possible on FCC...

 

[island]

What hairyhandedfool said.

Someone using a ticket at a time that it's not valid is normally required to pay an excess to the lowest-priced ticket that they could have bought immediately prior to travel which would have permitted them to travel at that time. However, condition 12 (b) of the NRCoC does state that a penalty fare (or full anytime single fare) may be charged for certain types of discounted tickets as indicated in notices and publications. Don't know if that will apply here.

 

[bnm]

On that basis, why does the man at Potters Bar (manual announcements, NOT Atos Anne) repeatedly announce the 0931 to KGX as being a peak train and anyone with an off-peak ticket being liable to pay a penalty fare?

Surely that's not possible?

Or correct. Certainly not anyone. What if I hold an Off Peak or Super Off Peak to a station outside the Network area?

 

[jon0844]

I agree that he's probably reading it as he says it pretty much word-for-word every time. Any deviation is probably him just misreading it!

 

[185]

It's silly exceptions to the rules like that, which create such a bad image for ATOC tickets.

 

[yorkie]

On that basis, why does the man at Potters Bar (manual announcements, NOT Atos Anne) repeatedly announce the 0931 to KGX as being a peak train and anyone with an off-peak ticket being liable to pay a penalty fare?

Because he isn't knowledgeable. Unfortunately such people are not as uncommon as they should be on the rail network.

 

[Ferret]

Because he isn't knowledgeable. Unfortunately such people are not as uncommon as they should be on the rail network.

You don't suppose it's a kind of scare tactic? Just a thought!

 

[First class]

In theory, a "penalty" will apply if caught on board the train without a valid ticket - due to a time restriction. It will be the cost between the Anytime and Off Peak excess, which can sometimes be considerable.

 

[jon0844]

Going into London from Potters Bar, there's only so much the difference could be. Even if the passenger had a ticket to some far flung part of the UK, I guess the excess would only be on the portion covered by that train (i.e. between Potters Bar and King's Cross)?

 

[yorkie]

Going into London from Potters Bar, there's only so much the difference could be. Even if the passenger had a ticket to some far flung part of the UK, I guess the excess would only be on the portion covered by that train (i.e. between Potters Bar and King's Cross)?

If it was to a far flung part of the UK (ie, anywhere beyond London and outside the Network Area), then a (Super) Off Peak ticket would be completely unrestricted between Potters Bar and London (and return)!

 

[Aictos]

The East Coast announcers at Peterborough don't announce anything of the sort, the only ticket announcement they do regarding East Coast train announcements are:

"Tickets marked FCC are not valid on this service"

What more could you want?

Anyway back to this query, the staff at Potters Bar is quite right as the FCC timetable clearly shows that

"Off-peak tickets are not valid during the morning peak at times tinted in blue. However, certain exceptions may apply. Please enquire at your local ticket office for details"

Now the train that the OP mentions is the 08:25 Cambridge to Kings Cross which is classed as a peak train between Cambridge and Finsbury Park only as it's classed as a off peak train between Finsbury Park and Kings Cross.

The train that goes before that one is not a off peak train until it gets to Alexandra Palace.

The first off peak trains to Moorgate are:

09:04 Stevenage to Moorgate via Hertford
09:24 Welwyn GC to Moorgate via Potters Bar

The first off peak trains to Kings Cross are:

08:46 Peterborough to Kings Cross via Stevenage
08:55 Cambridge to Kings Cross via Stevenage

 

[MikeWh]

I don't think anyone is questioning whether the train is usually classed as peak, at least in relation to tickets from the actual stations called at and London. What is being questioned is how much the penalty for using an off-peak ticket on that train is and whether it should be called a 'penalty fare'

 

[maddeningcrowds]

In theory, a "penalty" will apply if caught on board the train without a valid ticket - due to a time restriction. It will be the cost between the Anytime and Off Peak excess, which can sometimes be considerable.

It's not a penalty since it costs no more than it would have cost to buy the right ticket in the first place. A penalty is something in excess of the actual cost. Damages = the actual amount lost, penalty = in excess of the actual amount lost.

 

[island]

I suppose if someone's really extracting the urine (somehow) they could be reported for an RoR Act 1889 offence.

 

[yorkie]

Anyway back to this query, the staff at Potters Bar is quite right as the FCC timetable clearly shows that

"Off-peak tickets are not valid during the morning peak at times tinted in blue. However, certain exceptions may apply. Please enquire at your local ticket office for details"

Now the train that the OP mentions is the 08:25 Cambridge to Kings Cross which is classed as a peak train between Cambridge and Finsbury Park only as it's classed as a off peak train between Finsbury Park and Kings Cross.

Sorry but, no the announcer is WRONG because:
1) A penalty fare is not applicable;
2) It is only tickets that have the particular applicable validity code in question that are affected.

If someone holds a Potters Bar to Ipswich/Rugby/Swindon Off Peak ticket, they may be under the false impression that their ticket is not valid (it is valid) and, worse, that they could be issued a Penalty Fare (they can't, even if it wasn't valid).

If someone can record the announcer and upload/attach it here (as an MP3 file), I will ask the group station manager to listen to it, and to investigate and ensure that the announcements are altered. Or, if you can't record it, just note down the exact quote. I have faith in him to ensure that the matter is dealt with appropriately

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Virgin Trains do a similarly vague statement about Off-Peak tickets in the morning. The screens on the side of the Pendolinos just say "Off Peak Tickets Not Valid" on them at Manchester. Which probably isn't entirely true as there are almost certainly some off peak tickets which are valid on that train, even if ones to London are not.

 

[LexyBoy]

If someone holds a Potters Bar to Ipswich/Rugby/Swindon Off Peak ticket, they may be under the false impression that their ticket is not valid (it is valid) and, worse, that they could be issued a Penalty Fare (they can't, even if it wasn't valid).

I'd be interested to hear what station staff said if asked about its validity. I suspect that as the huge majority of passengers are travelling to London from such commuter stations, that staff are less likely in general to know or care about other ticket restrictions.

Virgin Trains do a similarly vague statement about Off-Peak tickets in the morning. The screens on the side of the Pendolinos just say "Off Peak Tickets Not Valid" on them at Manchester. Which probably isn't entirely true as there are almost certainly some off peak tickets which are valid on that train, even if ones to London are not.

Tickets from North Wales to London for example!

FGW do the same at Paddington. It's a difficult one, since IMO some information is useful, and the information will apply correctly to most passengers.

 

[island]

The Virgin displays at Euston are probably the best, saying "Ticket restrictions apply to this train, please ask for details".

 

[jon0844]

The Potters Bar announcement in full:

Passengers for the 0931 service for Finsbury park and London King's Cross, please note the service is formed of four coaches and will stop further along platform 1. The last coach of this service stops opposite the seating area and coffee kiosk.

Just a reminder to passengers, as per current timetable, the 0931 service for Finsbury Park and King's Cross is a peak period service. Off-peak travelcards and cheap day tickets are not valid for travel on this train. Passengers boarding the service with invalid tickets are liable to an added penalty fare. The first services accepting off-peak tickets, the 0937 all stations service to London Moorgate and the 0949 service calling at Finsbury Park and London King's Cross.

Now, he does say 'invalid tickets' which means you could argue he isn't actually saying that an off-peak ticket would make you liable to an added penalty fare, but I doubt you could listen to the whole thing and assume he's referring to tickets dated on the wrong day, the wrong route or whatever in the middle.

I have a recording of the above, and will try and upload it later.

 

[island]

And he could be including "penalty" instead of "excess" fare, I suppose. But what's a cheap day ticket ?

 

[Flamingo]

Probably scare tactics.

I use them myself sometimes, eg rather than go into the minutiae of split tickets, I just announce "Tickets split at Didcot are not valid" on a Rdg-Swi non-stop train. I know (in part thanks to this forum) that there are circumstances where split tickets will be valid, but in a 30 second PA announcement that I'm trying to fit in between the train prep and brake test, that is aimed at the vast majority, I'm not going to go into them.

Apart from anything else, those that are in those circumstances will almost certainly know they are OK!

 

[island]

I use them myself sometimes, eg rather than go into the minutiae of split tickets, I just announce "Tickets split at Didcot are not valid" on a Rdg-Swi non-stop train.

Some day you'll find someone with a season London-Didcot Parkway and a single from Swansea to Didcot Parkway

 

[bnm]

Probably scare tactics.

I use them myself sometimes, eg rather than go into the minutiae of split tickets, I just announce "Tickets split at Didcot are not valid" on a Rdg-Swi non-stop train. I know (in part thanks to this forum) that there are circumstances where split tickets will be valid, but in a 30 second PA announcement that I'm trying to fit in between the train prep and brake test, that is aimed at the vast majority, I'm not going to go into them.

Apart from anything else, those that are in those circumstances will almost certainly know they are OK!

I hope you don't do the "Off Peak tickets are not valid on this service, if you hold an Off Peak ticket you will be liable to an excess fare" announcement off PAD in the evening peak as well, like some of your colleagues.

 

[Flamingo]

Some day you'll find someone with a season London-Didcot Parkway and a single from Swansea to Didcot Parkway

I sometimes do. I say thank you, clip the ticket and walk on!

But nowhere near as many as I find who are on two season tickets and say "Nobody has ever had a problem with it before". Some of those have very short memories, as I have to remind them that they had been charged up by me previously.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I hope you don't do the "Off Peak tickets are not valid on this service, if you hold an Off Peak ticket you will be liable to an excess fare" announcement off PAD in the evening peak as well, like some of your colleagues.

Yep, I always announce all ticket restrictions before leaving Pad. I am giving passengers every chance to adhere to the restrictions they agreed to when they bought the ticket!

I normally just say, "If you are on an off-peak ticket, can you have your wallet ready when I am doing ticket checks, this will save time when I reach you!"

 

[tony_mac]

I hope you don't do the "Off Peak tickets are not valid on this service, if you hold an Off Peak ticket you will be liable to an excess fare" announcement off PAD in the evening peak as well, like some of your colleagues.

I must admit, all the on-screen notices and the on-train warnings had me doubting myself last time I did this. I was going to ask the train manager but there was no way of getting through the train to find him.

I normally just say, "If you are on an off-peak ticket, can you have your wallet ready when I am doing ticket checks, this will save time when I reach you!"

Which is a bit scary for those of use with valid off-peak tickets!

 

[bnm]

Yep, I always announce all ticket restrictions before leaving Pad. I am giving passengers every chance to adhere to the restrictions they agreed to when they bought the ticket!

All ticket restrictions? Really? That's an impressive PA!!!

My point was that there are numerous Off Peak tickets which ARE valid in the evening peak on fast services off PAD. It's wrong for the screens at PAD and the TM prior to departure to state, "Off Peak tickets are not valid on this service."

I've tried to get FGW to change this incorrect information, but still it continues. I was threatened with BTP and/or ejection when a TM tried to excess me even though I held a valid ticket. I had to accept a UPFN and give my details, something that makes me bloody angry when I know I'm not travelling on an invalid ticket. In fact on this occasion I'd double checked with a ticket clerk and got a print out of the restriction relevant to my ticket. Th TM refused point blank to either check her Avantix or call control. Her reasoning? "I've been doing this job 21 years, I know I'm right."
I just hope she got a meeting without coffee after my UPFN was, quite rightly, cancelled.

I'm savvy, I check my validity carefully. As I said, these incorrect announcements on screens an PA continue. My concern is passengers being convinced by a Train Manager they are in the wrong and then parting with money they needn't have paid. That is very close to illegal behaviour on the part of a Train Manager. For those reasons I've escalated my complaint to Passenger Focus.

 

[island]

I must admit, all the on-screen notices and the on-train warnings had me doubting myself last time I did this. I was going to ask the train manager but there was no way of getting through the train to find him.

Which is a bit scary for those of use with valid off-peak tickets!

Indeed. My current favourite example of "this is why simplification didn't work" is an off-peak return and an off-peak day return from Barking to Reading. The cheaper off-peak day return is valid in the evening peak, but the off-peak return is barred on the usual list of FGW intercity services.

 

[Flamingo]

There are tickets that are genuine, I know that, and it's finding the balance in the PA announcement.

I usually say "Off peak tickets from London", as this covers the cross-London transfers from up North, and if they are valid for stations west of a certain point, I'll say that as well, not give a blanket "No off-peak tickets are valid"

I will announce "Any passengers standing in the First Class vestibules please be ready to purchase your upgrade", as there are very few trains out of London unless something exceptional is going on (like last night) where the Vestibule Veg in 1st class can be justified by anything more than laziness, same in the mornings on the way in.