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Petrol panic buying

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reddragon

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Good points @reddragon.

Certainly this is NOT all (or even mainly) due to Brexit.

The problem with Remainiacs trying to fit everything into the "due to Brexit" lens is that it prevents a proper fix of a big issue, which is why their blinkeredness annoys me so much.

For those of us who are older and have longer memories, when Blair immediately opened up to Free Movement for new Eastern European EU members (unlike most other EU states), the availability of cheap HGV drivers who would put up with exploitative conditions went through the roof.

What that did was disguise and delay some fundamental problems in UK HGV driving which started then and grew over 15-20 years and include:

- Supermarkets (and others) driving down supply chain prices and the whole sector becoming casualised with logistics companies using cheap agency drivers
- Lack of basic HGV license training paid for by employer- why should they when they could get cheap labour from abroad?
- Youngsters not coming into the trade- it is not only unglamourous and by then badly paid and deteriorating conditions, but Blair was behind the push to get loads of kids into second-rate "uni" education which did nothing much for them but did a LOT to enrich those in the Educational establishment. (Same for other trades).
- Older drivers retire and others leave as conditions worsen.
- CPS training came in which is extra cost for the Driver
- Poor conditions as @reddragon describes
- Extra tracking and monitoring by agency staff employers as part of just in time delivery- which is in effect low-cost storage on a moving truck
- Demand from the better off middle classes and office workers for "free" next-day delivery.
- IR35 which meant that drivers effectively get a pay cut (Gordon Brown loved contractors using IR35 loopholes because it kept up-front prices down. I was contracting in the early days- I remember). Thing is, the HGV Drivers didn't choose those conditions of quasi-self employment, they had to take them or leave them (the same way agency track workers did until Network Rail stepped in a few years ago and put a stop to the worst of those practices). This was all about keeping transport costs down so that you, the consumer, can have an item a quid or two cheaper.

Then, some 15-20 years on, the perfect storm breaks as the holes in the slices of cheese all line up.

As Eastern EU countries get better standards of living, as UK standards of living are more difficult (think house prices) and we get a COVID pandemic, and we had Brexit, some EU drivers went home. We also have a DVLA meltdown and a lack of ANY HGV tests for a year making it difficult for new drivers to get a license. However, the number who went home was far smaller then the number of HGV licence holders in UK who don't use the category. But that last issues of a bunch of drivers departing for home was the tipping point- the last later of protection removed. It was A cause- not THE cause.

Fact is, we've enough drivers holding HGV Class 1 in the UK, but many don't want to drive as the conditions so bad- apparently it's better conditions driving an Amazon van (which according to the Graun is hell on earth). Those conditions became so low due to a big labour supply so there was always someone else to take the job for a pittance. Basically, UK logistics exploited oversees labour to keep prices down- is that acceptable or moral? I think not!

Blair has a lot to answer for in this. He casualised a whole swathe of previously skilled trades by immediately allowing a huge number of Eastern EU nationals in without ANY restriction (whilst other big EU countries including France and Germany put in initial controls). That made those trades unattractive and the UK dependent on a constant stream of cheap labour to be exploited. With Thatcher having destroyed the Trades Unions, and Blair the true heir to Thatcher, where was no-one to push back. The loopholes in IR35 allowed many employers to reduce their costs by pushing staff onto "self-employment" with poor conditions. Blair was a Labour PM who seemed to hate the skilled working class- which makes it much more egregious than the Tories doing it- and Starmer is another one cut from the same cloth unfortunately.

Think what would have happened if at privatization of the railways we'd had the European Train Driving License. Rather than train new Drivers, I'd bet that the newly private sector TOCs would have imported cheaper Drivers from EU. And the Train Driver grade would have suffered the consequences. However thanks to late introduction of the TDL, Aslef, and helped by something of a natural monopoly due to different philosophy of rail operations in GB vs EU (route-based vs speed-signalling), train driving is still a good (and hence desirable) career. As it was, there was a migration of train Drivers to the best paid TOCs with some smaller TOCs like the original Valleys franchise effectively being a Driving school for the bigger TOCs for a while. And train driving conditions remain good enough that drivers often stay beyond retirement on a part-time basis. That's what happens when there is a strong and not over-supplied skilled labour force- conditions and wages must be decent. (There is a strong Socialist argument for Brexit).

This storm has been a long time brewing and the solution is not to continue to mask the structural issues by calling "Brexit we told you so" rather it's to look honestly at the last 20 years of heir-to-Thatcher-Blair and his successors, and sort the mess out. We have got to get beyond this culture of importing low-wage labour to exploit so that the Guardianistas can have their cheap Uber and latte whilst they check how well their AirBNB properties are doing.

The quickest interim solution would be to persuade a bunch of the existing licence holders to drive again- maybe guarantee some decent conditions and suspend CPS as a starter for 10. Give us a bit of time to sort the rest out. Then- when there's a properly controlled and structured fair playing field, we could allow others from overseas to apply but only if the conditions are maintained and the same standards are met. Just like with train Drivers in fact.


My issue with the BBC is that it's become another edition of the Guardian. Whereas it should be unbiased as it is funded by the taxpayer via a mandatory levy. If I want to take the news from the perspective of the champange-socialist metropolitan elite I will read the Graun (or the New Statesman). If I want a traditional conservative slant I will read the Spectator. If I want to understand the level of sleaze etc I will read Private Eye. If I want a tory equivalent of the Graun I will read the Times or Telegraph. As it happens I regularly read the Guardian, Spectator and Private Eye and try to understand issues from more than one perspective. I don't indulge in FB or Twitter and I recognise that the tabloids are just playing clickbait games with the sector of the population they target.

The BBC should be a distillation of that; respectful but not indulging in wokery, balanced and analytical- not playing the emotional clickbait game the way they have been wont to do in recent years. The BBC could have kept things much calmer if they chose, lets face it most of the population will believe pretty much anything they are told by authority (look up the Milgram experiment....). The BBC has historical respect, so it should behave responsibly as only a national state broadcaster should and be factual and analytical rather than taking sides and pursuing stories from that slant. Only in recent days has the initial Remain-perspective coverage moderated slightly- maybe someone reminded the news editor of the BBC charter?


TPO
All very well said except 2 points.

This is nothing to do with remainers who have simply jumped on the fact that Brexit was the last straw.

This is a cross party issue. It is wrong to blame Tony Blair who left 15 years ago for all this. It is actually easier to blame Margaret Thatcher for removing all employee rights and mass privatisation of critical infrastructure.

The problem clearly sits with Boris and the greedy out of touch infighting that has infected his party for many years (not saying that Labour are better)
 
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Peter Sarf

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@TPO
What is CPS ?.
I have to say I used to like the BBC news but the last few years it seems to have gone a bit tabloid - probably pandering to the majority I am afraid.

All very well said except 2 points.

This is nothing to do with remainers who have simply jumped on the fact that Brexit was the last straw.

This is a cross party issue. It is wrong to blame Tony Blair who left 15 years ago for all this. It is actually easier to blame Margaret Thatcher for removing all employee rights and mass privatisation of critical infrastructure.

The problem clearly sits with Boris and the greedy out of touch infighting that has infected his party for many years (not saying that Labour are better)
I have to say I lost faith in the Tories over the handling of Covid-19. A difficult problem but I saw hypocrasy from Boris and his team. So I do not expect a solution from the politicians. They seem to want to distance themselves from the fuel problem unless they can blame the other party.
 

reddragon

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@TPO
What is CPS ?.
I have to say I used to like the BBC news but the last few years it seems to have gone a bit tabloid - probably pandering to the majority I am afraid.
I used to trust the BBC. Now its all negative bad news, often out of date or inaccurate and reports junk from tabloids.
 

jon0844

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The BBC is currently under a lot of pressure from the Government to toe the line with its funding always under review. Channel 4 is now getting similar pressures. We saw when Dominic Cummings turned certain press away how they were attempting to copy what Trump did in the USA. Fortunately, most journalists stood firm and protested this action - but there's still a quite obvious status where you need to be careful what you say if you want access to ministers to get the news, do interviews etc.

Our press should never be shackled, regardless of its viewpoints, and - yes - I do find it very frustrating to see Laura Kuenssberg often acting as Boris' press secretary at times.

Nevertheless, the vast majority of reporters at the BBC are just doing their job to report the news as fairly and balanced as possible - remembering the ethics they were taught and that they abide by for their own personal morals.

They have suffered a lot of cuts, which is probably why they report on other news more than they did. BBC Online has been decimated and produces a lot less content, and given they're expected to prove their worth by having traffic monitored (when a tax funded service shouldn't really need to care about that) then you will see more sensationalist stuff, celebrity gossip and the like. A race to the bottom which has already seen all the local press succumb over the years.
 

Peter Sarf

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I used to trust the BBC. Now its all negative bad news, often out of date or inaccurate and reports junk from tabloids.
The media always seem to me to report some things from a great level of ignorance that then leads to inaccuracy. The reporting of anything I know a lot about often makes me cringe. The BBC text news can get very out of date and the regional sections often contain a piece where I cannot see the connection with the region it is posted in. Probably little of no geographical knowledge.

I am convinced the priority is a story not information. There lies the route to miss-information.
 

XAM2175

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... It was A cause- not THE cause. ...
Nobody here has said anything to the contrary, but don't let that stop you :rolleyes:

This is a cross party issue. It is wrong to blame Tony Blair who left 15 years ago for all this. It is actually easier to blame Margaret Thatcher for removing all employee rights and mass privatisation of critical infrastructure.

The problem clearly sits with Boris and the greedy out of touch infighting that has infected his party for many years (not saying that Labour are better)
Exactly. It would be nice to be able to discuss this sensibly because there are unquestionably a huge number of structural issues with things like this in Britain, but it's not helped by constant denigration of "champagne socialist" "metropolitan elite" "Remainiacs" indulging in "wokery". Frankly it makes TPO sound blinkered.

Regardless of one's ideological position on Brexit, it cannot be denied that it has exacerbated the current situation because the way it has been achieved was hugely destabilising. So many opportunities to head off, or at least mitigate, disruption were missed or even deliberately avoided, and so now we're just lurching from crisis to crisis.

Ultimately the current government will do the bare minimum to address each immediate problem, then charge off to deal with some other mess, and the structural problems will remain untouched.
 
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jon0844

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Local news is likely not written by people who are local anymore. Local press is full of people who may now work from home, from any part of the UK, and work across multiple papers (all owned by the same publisher these days) writing up mostly press releases and scanning local Facebook pages for stories they can lift (including asking for permission to use photos taken by others). The big risk here is that the news they report is somewhat biased towards whoever posted the story, and it isn't always possible to fully fact check.

Hence why you often get very vague stories devoid of facts, and sometimes around 100 words or less. Worse, the story stays on the page for days and if you go to the site to read, you see a high up story about a car crash/road closure and then discover it was yesterday or the day before.

We have only ourselves to blame. People don't buy papers and expect all the news to be published online for free, and for advertisers to pay for it (who pay peanuts and sometimes try and manipulate editorial as a condition of advertising - which introduces major conflicts of interest).
 

Typhoon

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This is a cross party issue. It is wrong to blame Tony Blair who left 15 years ago for all this. It is actually easier to blame Margaret Thatcher for removing all employee rights and mass privatisation of critical infrastructure.

The problem clearly sits with Boris and the greedy out of touch infighting that has infected his party for many years (not saying that Labour are better)
Even if what Blair did is partly responsible for the current situation, we have had four Prime Ministers since who have done nothing to reverse it.

Nevertheless, the vast majority of reporters at the BBC are just doing their job to report the news as fairly and balanced as possible - remembering the ethics they were taught and that they abide by for their own personal morals.

They have suffered a lot of cuts, which is probably why they report on other news more than they did. BBC Online has been decimated and produces a lot less content, and given they're expected to prove their worth by having traffic monitored (when a tax funded service shouldn't really need to care about that) then you will see more sensationalist stuff, celebrity gossip and the like. A race to the bottom which has already seen all the local press succumb over the years.
Agree, wholeheartedly, Not only that, but many of the journalists that have left are the more experienced ones, the household names with a track record, the ones who could go out on a limb, because their reputation bore them up. Locally we appear to have lost the specialists, the education correspondent, the arts correspondent, and, for this thread, the business correspondent, who covered other stories but had the connections that enriched a story. The BBC could do more (make use of local reporters on appropriate national stories). And you are right, in the south east, one day they are reporting on migrants arriving in dinghies, next day Lorry Parks outside Dover, next day a local football match, then empty shelves in supermarkets, followed by mobile vaccination centres at schools. Little wonder it is shallow reporting.
 

Ediswan

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The media always seem to me to report some things from a great level of ignorance that then leads to inaccuracy. The reporting of anything I know a lot about often makes me cringe.
What does that indicate about the accuracy reports of things you don't know a lot about ? (Rhetorical question.)

https://www.epsilontheory.com/gell-mann-amnesia/

“Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the “wet streets cause rain” stories. Paper’s full of them.

In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.” – Michael Crichton (1942-2008)
 
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I had to drive to Cambridge and back for work yesterday and I did notice things were slightly different. There was slightly less traffic on the roads in general and on the Motorways there did seem to be less traffic flying along at 80+ mph. Personally I made a conscious effort to not exceed 70mph and noted that it only took me a couple of minutes longer to complete my journey compared to previous times when I've been to Cambridge for work recently along with a noticeable improvement in my mpg. Fortunately I haven't had to fill up yet which normally costs me around £80 given it's a diesel Audi and most of the petrol stations around me either have no diesel or have a £30 limit. Fingers crossed that by next week when I do have to fill up that things will have improved.
 

Peter Sarf

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I had to drive to Cambridge and back for work yesterday and I did notice things were slightly different. There was slightly less traffic on the roads in general and on the Motorways there did seem to be less traffic flying along at 80+ mph. Personally I made a conscious effort to not exceed 70mph and noted that it only took me a couple of minutes longer to complete my journey compared to previous times when I've been to Cambridge for work recently along with a noticeable improvement in my mpg. Fortunately I haven't had to fill up yet which normally costs me around £80 given it's a diesel Audi and most of the petrol stations around me either have no diesel or have a £30 limit. Fingers crossed that by next week when I do have to fill up that things will have improved.
Yes. I have often thought that the time saved by going over 70mph on a long journey is not that great and completely lost as soon as one has to stop for fuel. My biggest time saving and personal energy saving is to do journeys at silly o'clock (overnight). London is far easier after midnight even though I am not a night owl.
 

LAX54

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seems there is a 'trucker shortage' in the USA, I wonder if it is down to Brexit and all the drivers going 'back home' ?
 

GusB

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What is CPS ?.
It isn't CPS - it's CPC (Certificate of Professional Competence).

Drivers have to do 35 hours of training every 5 years in order to maintain this.

https://www.gov.uk/driver-cpc-training

You must do 35 hours of periodic training every 5 years to keep your Driver Certificate of Professional Competence (CPC) to drive a lorry, bus or coach.

You can be fined up to £1,000 for driving professionally without Driver CPC.

You can check how many hours of training you’ve done in the current 5-year period.

You only need to complete one set of training every 5 years if you drive both lorries and buses professionally.
 

LAX54

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It isn't CPS - it's CPC (Certificate of Professional Competence).

Drivers have to do 35 hours of training every 5 years in order to maintain this.

https://www.gov.uk/driver-cpc-training
and of course need an ADR after the CPC............you'll also need an ADR driver training . ADR is the shortened name for the European Agreement on the International Carriage of Dangerous Goods by Road.
 

GusB

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and of course need an ADR after the CPC............you'll also need an ADR driver training . ADR is the shortened name for the European Agreement on the International Carriage of Dangerous Goods by Road.
I had always wondered what ADR stood for. What a snappy title!

Everyday's a school day :)
 

RT4038

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All very well said except 2 points.

This is nothing to do with remainers who have simply jumped on the fact that Brexit was the last straw.

This is a cross party issue. It is wrong to blame Tony Blair who left 15 years ago for all this. It is actually easier to blame Margaret Thatcher for removing all employee rights and mass privatisation of critical infrastructure.

The problem clearly sits with Boris and the greedy out of touch infighting that has infected his party for many years (not saying that Labour are better)
Not a lot of point blaming past Prime Ministers. Yes, we should still be in a 70s time warp with the standard of living to go with it. The problem clearly lies with all of those who have benefitted from, got used to and continue to want the higher standard of living which exploiting immigrants has given us. Probably the same people who have been complaining about them. Now the chickens are coming home to roost.
 

duncanp

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Not a lot of point blaming past Prime Ministers. Yes, we should still be in a 70s time warp with the standard of living to go with it. The problem clearly lies with all of those who have benefitted from, got used to and continue to want the higher standard of living which exploiting immigrants has given us. Probably the same people who have been complaining about them. Now the chickens are coming home to roost.

This article from The Telegraph is interesting

It says we are paying the price for pushing young people towards university education, and that the lack of manual workers in the population has been concealed by people coming from the EU.

It says we need to value manual work more, rather than pushing young people into irrelevant Mickey Mouse university degrees where the skills acquired are of no use in subsequent employment.

Indeed it does young people no good if they go on a unversity course, saddle themselves with a large student debt, and then cannot use their university degree to find suitable employment.


Britain is paying the price for pushing should-be manual workers into university education​

For years, the lack of manual workers in the indigenous population was concealed by European migrants. That will no longer be the case

Idon’t want to let Boris Johnson off the hook for his feeble handling of the fuel crisis, but in trying to trace its long roots I was drawn to a speech made by the then new Prime Minister Gordon Brown at the University of Greenwich in October 2007. Praising the institution’s expansion drive he said: “We have 6 million unskilled workers in Britain today, we will need only a half million of these 6 million jobs in 2020, 5.5 million fewer unskilled jobs, and this disappearing demand for low skills and no skills and a rising demand for high skills explains why no young person can afford now to leave school without some skill or qualification.”

I remembered that speech because it struck me as a remarkable prediction to make. Come 2020 were we really not going to need anyone to empty the bins, pick vegetables from the fields, sweep the floors, serve restaurant tables and a hundred other routine tasks? Moreover, if all the people who would otherwise have done these jobs signed up for a university degree in media studies or gender studies, would they really be able to find employers keen to make use of their skills?


Well, we are now in the 2020s and the folly of Brown’s speech is clear. Already by 2015, according to the CIPD, 59 percent of recent graduates had found themselves in jobs which didn’t require a degree. Meanwhile, the economy is screaming out for unskilled and semi-skilled workers to keep basic services running.

It isn’t just lorry-drivers (whom I acknowledge do have skills, just not the white collar ones Brown which was talking about); we have a shortage of people willing to pick fruit and vegetables, with the result crops are being left to rot. Restaurants can’t find waiting staff, hotels can’t find people to make the beds. So it goes on. For years, the lack of manual workers in the UK population was concealed by the arrival of migrant workers from Eastern Europe. But that source of cheap labour has now been choked off. Whether you blame Brexit, Covid or a mixture of both, it is all a little academic -- that supply was always going to slow down as Eastern European countries became wealthier and their citizens no longer had quite the same incentive to cross Europe to look for work.

But let’s not blame Gordon Brown alone. Britain’s lack of willing manual workers has roots even further back than his time as PM. It began with John Major’s fetishisation of university, which turned good, vocational polytechnics into third-rate academic institutions. It was continued by Blair, who wanted 50 percent of young people to have a university education – although he never quite said why. Labour, which had previously championed “workers by hand or by brain” began under Blair to develop a sniffy attitude towards the former.

Whether intended or not, the message went out to young people that they could consider themselves failures if they didn’t seek professional qualifications and achieve white collar employment. We ended up with a workforce which wanted to inspect buildings rather than lay bricks or dig foundations, which wanted to study spreadsheets on diversity targets rather than sew seams, which wanted to write strategy documents on climate change rather than operate refuse trucks.

True, I can’t say that I am angling for a job as a lorry driver myself (although I think I would marginally prefer that to being a council diversity officer). And it is also the case that the skill levels required for many jobs are gradually rising as machinery and the like becomes more technical. But we have to recognise that there will always be a need for manual jobs, many of them low-skilled, and that we must respect and value the people who do them.

Indeed, as the fuel crisis reminds us, we notice a shortage of manual workers much more quickly and dramatically than we would a shortage of white collar staff.
 

reddragon

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In secondary schools today they push kids into Media Studies, Arts, Photography, Dance etc instead of Science simply because that's what teachers they have. The education system has no capacity to teach a trade until College.

My local College is still teaching kids car mechanics for ICE cars when the industry is crying out for EV training. Sounds like a bit of joined up thinking maybe required!
 

MattRat

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In secondary schools today they push kids into Media Studies, Arts, Photography, Dance etc instead of Science simply because that's what teachers they have. The education system has no capacity to teach a trade until College.
Well, it started in the USA. Americanisation ruins everything it seems.
 

birchesgreen

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Well its good they are pushing kids into media studies considering how big the media industry is in this country, but i suspect that wasn't your point. :rolleyes:
 

reddragon

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Well its good they are pushing kids into media studies considering how big the media industry is in this country, but i suspect that wasn't your point. :rolleyes:
The vast majority of those who study media do not go into the industry, over 99% I think I read once, similar for those who train as equine vets. Engineering students on the other hand and trades find job offers being thrown at them.
 

brad465

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Not a lot of point blaming past Prime Ministers. Yes, we should still be in a 70s time warp with the standard of living to go with it. The problem clearly lies with all of those who have benefitted from, got used to and continue to want the higher standard of living which exploiting immigrants has given us. Probably the same people who have been complaining about them. Now the chickens are coming home to roost.
Yes we have a pyramid scheme economic model which relies on immigration to make up the shortfall in our falling domestic birth rates needed to keep the growth going, not just in GDP, but also increasing the workforce numbers to keep paying tax to prop up the state pension model. This is not unique to us, most western economies are in the same boat, some ahead of us, some behind us. Even China is now having problems with working age population due to its long lived one child policy.

I think the shortages, including in petrol, are a subliminal message saying that maybe we're demanding too much for the population of our size and what labour the population can carry out, as you allude to with exploiting immigrants.
 

yorksrob

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I think the shortages, including in petrol, are a subliminal message saying that maybe we're demanding too much for the population of our size and what labour the population can carry out, as you allude to with exploiting immigrants.

Given the amount of labour saving technology that's been invented over the past couple of hundred years, we shouldn't need an ever growing population to maintain living standards.

Where is that wealth going.
 

Bald Rick

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Meanwhile, back on topic...

I needed to buy fuel tonight (long journey tomorrow) - I drove to the petrol station, waited behind one car, then filled up as normal. Drove past another petrol station on the way home - that had a short queue.

Crisis over.
 

reddragon

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Meanwhile, back on topic...

I needed to buy fuel tonight (long journey tomorrow) - I drove to the petrol station, waited behind one car, then filled up as normal. Drove past another petrol station on the way home - that had a short queue.

Crisis over.
Does that mean I will have to stop being smug now?
 
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