Petition to reinstate train services

[northwichcat]

Petition to reinstate local services axed by the introduction of Virgin's VHF WCML timetable:

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/localrail

 

[me123]

I've already deleted a few posts that have started an argument; please don't argue. Thanks.

 

[xc170]

Cant see anything happening anytime soon.

Adam

 

[Chilled Phill]

This petition is to reinstate those trains, which are much needed, as well as reopening the Northwich to Sandbach line linking the two fore-mentioned lines, which would also assist with passenger flows.

Interesting.

Whilst I do agree that the people of Middlewich need a railway link and that a majority of teenagers in Sandbach go to Mid-Cheshire college in Northwich, I think in this time of economic downturn; refurbishing a line for adequate quality for regular passenger use would seem a bad move for the government.

Whilst I do agree that perhaps Northern services between Sandbach and Manchester should be improved, my opinion is that the service to Sandbach from Manchester is perfectly fine as they are (reasonably) spaced although if you miss the train at the "top of the hour", you'll be waiting a minimum of 45-50 minutes for the next service to Sandbach.

Going back to my problem with the direction towards Manchester, as I've stated in a previous thread, the station is served by two trains every hour to Manchester with one via Stockport, at the top of the hour, and via the airport, 20 minutes to the top of the hour. Now, because the airport train waits at Manc Airport for 10 minutes, I assume for trafficking issues (even though the final 5 minutes of it's wait sees NO trains at the station apart from itself), means that the two trains arrive at Piccadilly within two minutes of each other...Effectively, Sandbach and Holmes Chapel's Manchester services have been reduced to a train every hour during the off-peak.

But don't let this rather large moaning paragraph fool you, every timetable TOCs produce may cause some vents of frustrations from a group of passengers such as myself. Anyway, the fact that the two stations are regularly served by four services to Crewe and Manchester respectively every hour, whilst places like Alsager get two services to Crewe and Derby/Stoke every two hours shows that Northern care what's going on along the line.

...Although I will say that I can't speak for the Chester-Altrincham-Piccadilly services, so this is where my two cents will probably end on the issue.

 

[northwichcat]

Interesting.

Whilst I do agree that the people of Middlewich need a railway link and that a majority of teenagers in Sandbach go to Mid-Cheshire college in Northwich, I think in this time of economic downturn; refurbishing a line for adequate quality for regular passenger use would seem a bad move for the government.

From what I've heard the line has recently had improvements made to it, as it is used by freight traffic. It's also been used by diverted trains travelling between Crewe and North Wales (including 221s)

 

[Chilled Phill]

From what I've heard the line has recently had improvements made to it, as it is used by freight traffic. It's also been used by diverted trains travelling between Crewe and North Wales (including 221s)

Yes, I am aware of this.

However, I was referring to regular traffic use. The occasional Voyager and Freight Train doesn't really mean it's suitable for regular use day in-Day out...

 

[northwichcat]

Not long left to sign now.

 

[Chilled Phill]

Indeed. But I'm afraid that, despite being unhappy with Nothern's services along the Crewe-Manc line, I will no be signing it.

1.) Because Northern/Gordon Brown can't do anything about Virgin wanting more trains to/from Manc-Euston, iirc.
2.) The proposal to reopen the Middlewich branch I believe has been given hardly any thought. Granted Freight and 221s occasionally go down the line, but the line speed is 20mph max. ffs, what's the point of a service that only goes at 20mph? You're faster going by bus.

The rest of my arguments have already been outlined in a previous post. Once again, I will not be signing this petition because I feel it will do f all to the services along the Crewe-Manc line. They're good enough: live with it. :roll:

 

[yorkie]

What are the cuts on the Manchester-Chester route and how can this have anything to do with more trains to Euston?! Surely the 4-track section from Stockport to Manchester isn't suddenly at full capacity because of one extra train per hour?!

There seems to be about 13tph on this stretch, yet some 2-track railways have more trains per hour than that!

It this Numpty Rail wanting to have headways about 5 times greater than required or something daft? Good job they don't run the tube!

 

[350401]

What are the cuts on the Manchester-Chester route and how can this have anything to do with more trains to Euston?! Surely the 4-track section from Stockport to Manchester isn't suddenly at full capacity because of one extra train per hour?!

There seems to be about 13tph on this stretch, yet some 2-track railways have more trains per hour than that!

It this Numpty Rail wanting to have headways about 5 times greater than required or something daft? Good job they don't run the tube!

There have been cuts on the Chester-Mcr route - there used to be 2 trains per hour at rush hour on the line that went all the way from Chester to Manchester. Now its down to 1tph with the second 'additional' train starting/terminating at Stockport. To be fair though, the trains at rush hour have generally gone from pacers to sprinters - 156s being quite common in my experience.

To be fair the connections work reasonably well in my experience - there are trains into Manchester (from Knutsford, the most well used station on the line) at 06.45, 07.45, 08.49 (and at xx.49 every hour then on), and additional trains to Stockport only at 07.17 and 08.17. Given you can change at Altrincham for the tram which takes 20 mins into Manchester, it doesn't really add anything on time wise. I remember when there was an 08.12 train that got in at 08.58 - now if I catch the 08.17 and use the tram I'm in law school for 9am easy. Coming back in the evening also works well - the direct trains leave Picc at xx.17 with the infill trains leaving Stockport at 16.58 and 17.58, connecting with the East Midlands train from Picc at xx.43. Thus assuming all is ontime, its 16.17, 16.43(c), 17.09, 17.43(c), 18.17. Hardly bad. The infill trains are well loaded (usually 150s) so I guess people are finding it easy to use. The only downside is that it makes the East Mids Liverpool-Norwich even more crowded!

But yes, it does seem daft to cut direct trains - the Stockport viaduct hardly seems crowded. NR claim its at capacity - I really doubt it. Anyone with experience want to fill me in here with reasons why it is or how it can be improved?

My biggest gripe is that the 08.19 Chelford-Mcr has been retimed to leave crewe 5 mins earlier and now skips Chelford (and Goostrey) - thus there is a train at 07.51 and not another useful one till 09.09. If it did stop it would be the 08.13 and would get in at 08.46 - perfect. There is one at 08.50 but its via Airport and gets in at the same time as the 09.09! Hardly good rush hour service. Especially as mentioned before the 07.51 is usually a 2 coach 142 and rammed. Its even worse when it gets cancelled as they rarely stop the following train meaning there is no rush hour train. If they could just find a way to stop the train at Chelford at 08.13, I'd be very happy and wouldn't moan at all about the service

 

[northwichcat]

Someone recently wrote to the Knutsford Guardian saying that they work for the BBC in Manchester, having previously worked in other BBC offices around the country.

They said they were very surprised at the lack of service Knutsford gets compared to other places they have commuted from and said they were suprised that Knutsford did not get a half-hourly service all day and at least 3tph in the peaks.

The main issue with using the Metrolink for Knutsford-Manchester commuters would be in the evening. If a tram is delayed or decides to terminate early at Timperley then it could mean a half hour wait at Altrincham.

From looking at Metrolink literature Altrincham-Manchester is about 25 minutes, which in theory is about the same as the train minus 'recovery time' but you're adding on connection time at Altrincham.

Having caught the old 0812 from Knutsford to Manchester myself it usually had people standing on it. OK some were school children who alighted at Hale, but it usually had at least 90 people on it at any one time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

2.) The proposal to reopen the Middlewich branch I believe has been given hardly any thought. Granted Freight and 221s occasionally go down the line, but the line speed is 20mph max. ffs, what's the point of a service that only goes at 20mph? You're faster going by bus.

It's certainly not faster to do Northwich/Knutsford/Altrincham-Stockport-Crewe than Altrincham/Knutsford/Northwich/Middlewich-Crewe or Knutsford/Northwich-Chester-Crewe.

If people in Middlewich get a train service to Crewe and Manchester via Altrincham they may decide it's quicker to go to Manchester by changing at Sandbach or Crewe, but that will be better than no train service.

 

[Tomnick]

I don't know the area particularly well, but the capacity constraints could well be down to the various conflicting moves (Slade Lane, Edgeley No.1 and No.2, as well as Piccadilly station throat itself). I'd have thought that these would be the sources of the problems rather than 'plain line' capacity (with 4 minute headways, ignoring the conflicts at junctions and the effects of stoppers at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme, it should be good for getting on for 30tph over the two lines in each direction!).

I don't know whether this supports the argument or not, but terminating one of the 2tph at Stockport wouldn't seem to free up much capacity on the 'four-track' section, as it occupies (presumably) the Down Slow to terminate at Stockport, and then shunts across to the Up Slow to return south somewhere? Does that suggest that the problem is in the Slade Lane/Piccadilly area rather than Stockport?

 

[northwichcat]

A feasibility report in to the Northwich to Sandbach line has found the benefit to cost ratio of running a Northwich to Crewe service is 5.5 compared to the 1.5 needed to reopen a line. Running a Crewe to Altrincham service also has a cost ratio above 1.5, but isn't being put forward in the short term due to a shortage of units.

http://www.cheshirebytrain.co.uk/fi...gers---final-report--july-2009_1248945280.pdf