Petition for Guards

[TheEdge]

I'd be interested to know whether the assaults ANorthernGuard referred to were because they were visible staff members or came about after they tried to force someone to buy a ticket, told them to behave themselves etc.

I have been physically assaulted once in the 3 years I have been at work. I tend to push through the drunk trains, the busy trains and the rest. However one Wednesday night on a quiet rural line I sold a bloke (the correct) ticket. Later on he took exception to being sold the ticket and spat in my face as he left the train. Unprovoked, unexpected and happened simply because I was stood in the wrong place. Another incident was on a Saturday night where a group kept grabbing at me as I walked past. I've been screamed at in the middle of the afternoon for trying to sell someone a ticket they asked for. Assaults can and do happen at any time of day and from any source. They are more common at the weekend but there is no certainty about when they could happen.

Like I said earlier the question was posed was a guard's salary really only £17k and I found the answer to that an posted the list of incentives Northern offer as well, so it gives a comparison to other jobs. I don't see how it is attacking a guard to say they are better paid than what was previously quoted.

All of your posts in this thread have been nothing but attempting to reinforce your own views on the incompetency of traincrew.

 

[Bodiddly]

I'm saying both what I have experienced and what other people have said including some in this thread and I've not changed my line as I said the same thing in post 43.

I'd be interested to know whether the assaults ANorthernGuard referred to were because they were visible staff members or came about after they tried to force someone to buy a ticket, told them to behave themselves etc.

Like I said from the beginning the petition wording says a guard is needed on late services for safety but the solution to the safety aspects identified by the petition is not necessarily one guard on every train.



Like I said earlier the question was posed was a guard's salary really only £17k and I found the answer to that an posted the list of incentives Northern offer as well, so it gives a comparison to other jobs. I don't see how it is attacking a guard to say they are better paid than what was previously quoted.
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Like I said in my previous post I don't how posting what a guard is paid and what additional incentives they are given from a Northern advert which is advertised to the public, is anti-guard. Do you want the public to believe a misinformed post which indicates you earn a much lower salary than you actually do? If so why?

No most jobs don't have to deal with thugs and louts acting within a confined space and most have more sociable working hours but normally a much lower salary unless you have a specialist qualification or many years experience. I imagine someone asked is it really £17k guards earn because it seemed low taking things such as what you've said in to account, not because £17k is actually low compared to what people earn in other roles. The guard's actually salary is high compared to airline stewards who have to put up with similar problems in a similar environment. Just because I give the missing part of the picture the RMT would keep quiet about, doesn't make me anti-guard, when all the other parts have already been given.

I never said in my post that a guard wasn't well paid, they are on a good salary because of the nature of the job and the unsociable hours etc.
Let's take the airline steward, train guard argument for a minute. Two completely different roles. The Steward's are highly trained for evacuation procedures and do have to deal with rowdy passengers from time to time but any disturbance on an aeroplane is very strictly dealt with and carries severe punishments. The train guard has to deal with often violent passengers and doesn't get any where near the support that the airline industry gets. Add to that the guard is in charge of the train in an emergency then comparing the roles can't really be done.
The railway is a well paid career hence the reason over 20,000 people applied for 100 drivers jobs for Scotrail.

 

[northwichcat]

All of your posts in this thread have been nothing but attempting to reinforce your own views on the incompetency of traincrew.

Post 47 I gave two examples of where a guard had solved a problem which they wouldn't have done without passing through the train at all and I stressed that the more often the guard passes through the more quickly problems can be addressed in response to some people saying they didn't see the point of a guard walking through the train if they aren't doing revenue.

I hope the TOC employees who manage the guards are very well paid given the amount of criticism people seem to get for suggesting improvements.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Post 47 I gave two examples of where a guard had solved a problem which they wouldn't have done without passing through the train at all and I stressed that the more often the guard passes through the more quickly problems can be addressed in response to some people saying they didn't see the point of a guard walking through the train if they aren't doing revenue.

I hope the TOC employees who manage the guards are very well paid given the amount of criticism people seem to get for suggesting improvements.

Get hold of statistics JC and while you are at it WAKE UP ! Many railway employees ate verbally assaulted everyday and when it happens in a confined area (like a train) its even worse! we have zero backup due to the lack of BTP officers (Poorly funded as the officers when they can do a very good job). On a service like the last one from Chester on a Saturday Night back to Piccadilly after Chester Races we have verbal abuse, people vomiting, People missing their stop because they are too drunk too notice and many other things, It seems to me and quite a few people on this forum that you have absolutely NO idea what really happens. SO here's the deal. The Next Last Train from Chester back to Piccadilly you spend the ENTIRE journey and maybe just maybe you will have a real idea of what happens.

 

[fandroid]

The problem with the petition is that it doesn't go to the heart of the problem. That is presumably that passenger safety is inadequately looked after in some trains. The petition puts forward one blanket solution. What other solutions has the union considered? Are there solutions that are better tailored to the most vulnerable people and on trains where the risk is greatest?

 

[313103]

It is ironic that whilst the discussion has gone into staff assaults i have just been reading a article in the Telegraph and Argus Bradford area of a train Guard being verbally assaulted and then spat upon between Keighley and Crossflats on the 25th of January.

The headline: Passenger threatened to head butt train Guard before spitting on him between Keighley and Crossflats.

A mugshot of the person is shown.

Would put up link but been told you have to put it up in a certain way as you cant directly put link up and i dont have the time or inclination to rewrite all on here.

 

[northwichcat]

Get hold of statistics JC and while you are at it WAKE UP ! Many railway employees ate verbally assaulted everyday and when it happens in a confined area (like a train) its even worse! we have zero backup due to the lack of BTP officers (Poorly funded as the officers when they can do a very good job). On a service like the last one from Chester on a Saturday Night back to Piccadilly after Chester Races we have verbal abuse, people vomiting, People missing their stop because they are too drunk too notice and many other things, It seems to me and quite a few people on this forum that you have absolutely NO idea what really happens. SO here's the deal. The Next Last Train from Chester back to Piccadilly you spend the ENTIRE journey and maybe just maybe you will have a real idea of what happens.

Like I said Chester racecourse has a limited number of events every year. I've just found their 2016 dates here: http://www.chester-races.co.uk/news/dates-2016-season-released and they are running 15 events, that means 348 days this year Northern will be running services and they'll be no Chester races. You've really done the Chester races argument to death now considering.

Unless you can get Northern to run a 00:25 or later service from Manchester to Knutsford I can't do what you suggest, otherwise I won't be able to get home afterwards.

I have been on late services in both directions and like I've said previously it's very inconsistent what type of passengers you get. A group of rowdy drunks may be on a late service one day but then the same service another day sees passengers who are quieter than people working in a library.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Like I said Chester racecourse has a limited number of events every year. I've just found their 2016 dates here: http://www.chester-races.co.uk/news/dates-2016-season-released and they are running 15 events, that means 348 days this year Northern will be running services and they'll be no Chester races. You've really done the Chester races argument to death now considering.

Unless you can get Northern to run a 00:25 or later service from Manchester to Knutsford I can't do what you suggest, otherwise I won't be able to get home afterwards.

I have been on late services in both directions and like I've said previously it's very inconsistent what type of passengers you get. A group of rowdy drunks may be on a late service one day but then the same service another day sees passengers who are quieter than people working in a library.

You really do live in your own fantasy world your counter arguments are complete and utter tosh just like a lot of your comments on the forum. I will stop feeding the troll as I don't want to get banned.

 

[northwichcat]

You really do live in your own fantasy world your counter arguments are complete and utter tosh just like a lot of your comments on the forum. I will stop feeding the troll as I don't want to get banned.

Sorry you can't handle the truth. The facts are Chester racecourse has no races 94% of days Northern operate services to Chester and not all late services are full of rowdy abusive drunks, especially Monday-Thursday ones.

 

[DarloRich]

The petition is poorly expressed but i have signed it as I believe in having a "safety critical" guard on the train. Sadly, there are several vocal critics who seem to have little grasp of the world faced by many front line staff: You never truly know someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes

 

[TheEdge]

Sorry you can't handle the truth. The facts are Chester racecourse has no races 94% of days Northern operate services to Chester and not all late services are full of rowdy abusive drunks, especially Monday-Thursday ones.

The truth is a train is safer with a conductor. Ignoring Chester racecourse, Northern or any other unrelated tosh a train with two crew is better than one. A train with a member of staff whose main job is to ensure the safe movement of the train from all platforms is safer than with one who is also driving while trying to look at a screen and with no way to be quickly stopped if something does develop.

As has been said over and over you have no idea and until you are the guy in a uniform locked in a narrow carriage with drunk and or aggressive people with no backup you cannot really comment on what the job is like and how it should or should not be done.

 

[driver_m]

I once got bricked and let me tell you jcollins, the guard that sat with me back to the station was worth her weight in gold. If she hadn't have been there I would have left the train where it was as I was understandably shook up. Sometimes you can't put a value on something. An RPI wouldnt be allowed near the cab, even in that circumstance. Keep them and give them more money. They earn and deserve it. You don't see the half of what goes on and how they are treated.

Oh and for what it's worth, Chester Racecourse has other events like concerts and the like which carry lots and lots of passengers, so stop using stats that suit your argument.

 

[northwichcat]

The truth is a train is safer with a conductor. Ignoring Chester racecourse, Northern or any other unrelated tosh a train with two crew is better than one. A train with a member of staff whose main job is to ensure the safe movement of the train from all platforms is safer than with one who is also driving while trying to look at a screen and with no way to be quickly stopped if something does develop.

As has been said over and over you have no idea and until you are the guy in a uniform locked in a narrow carriage with drunk and or aggressive people with no backup you cannot really comment on what the job is like and how it should or should not be done.

One of the problems with the petition is it implies the solution is a guard on every service. If a service is operated by 2 x 150/1s and there is one guard then the only staff member on the front unit will be the driver, so how does that make the passengers on the front unit feel secure? With Northern services there are occasions where only the front unit is opened at the origin station and the rear unit is opened later on, at which stage the guard switches portions.

One solution doesn't suit all scenarios and I honestly think sometimes the RMT makes it difficult to find a solution to the benefit of the passengers. They seem to want the guard to do everything and object if there's any suggestions about getting someone not qualified as a guard to help the guard out. Apparently on Northern services an AFC is OK only if he/she is a qualified guard and someone once claimed Northern started trying to put non-guards on Sheffield area services to help out with revenue and the guards told them to get off their trains. While I understand why they don't want security company employees with limited training to do revenue duties, would it actually be a bad thing for a TOC to use a security company to provide security personnel for the purpose of safety and security only on services where there are likely to be problems?

 

[Bletchleyite]

On many of these "vomit comet" services, two big, burly, thuggish security guards responsible only for ejecting and reporting any passengers who behave in an unacceptable manner would be better value for money than one guard shut in his back cab for genuine fear of assault.

Both would be better, but is it affordable?

 

[northwichcat]

Oh and for what it's worth, Chester Racecourse has other events like concerts and the like which carry lots and lots of passengers, so stop using stats that suit your argument.

The claim I was responding to specifically referred to people going to the races being the troublesome passengers.

on a Saturday Night back to Piccadilly after Chester Races we have verbal abuse, people vomiting, People missing their stop because they are too drunk too notice and many other things,

Re-reading what ANorthernGuard said it seems he was only referring to Saturday night services after Chester races so I accept I got it wrong and should have actually said 91% of Saturdays there are no races in Chester.

Yes I'm aware other events happen but will the Food & Lifestyle festival happening on the Easter weekend attract lots of drunks on the late services when it runs from 10am to 4pm? Or will a Fireworks show for Bonfire night aimed at families where no alcohol is served attract a load of drunks?

 

[driver_m]

The claim I was responding to specifically referred to people going to the races being the troublesome passengers.



Re-reading what ANorthernGuard said it seems he was only referring to Saturday night services after Chester races so I accept I got it wrong and should have actually said 91% of Saturdays there are no races in Chester.

Yes I'm aware other events happen but will the Food & Lifestyle festival happening on the Easter weekend attract lots of drunks on the late services when it runs from 10am to 4pm? Or will a Fireworks show for Bonfire night aimed at families where no alcohol is served attract a load of drunks?

Wherever alcohol can be bought you can get trouble. It doesn't matter whether it's the first, the last or whatever train. The number of disrupted trains I've worked which I've had would amaze you at the times they've happened. Times have changed, you'll do well now to get any grade to accept any alteration to driver & guard, no matter what some report or paper says or proposes. It won't get past us now and that's it.

The government ultimately won't listen to the petition but they'll have to listen at some point when someone tries to change these working practices.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Government won against the miners. If sufficiently determined, they could also win against the traincrew.

I would not assume that any action traincrew can take will necessarily prevent a move to DOO. That is a risky assumption.

 

[driver_m]

That government did its homework and still nearly lost. This government stands no comparison in terms of competence, backbone, and the very different world of social media that we live in now. Let's see what happens

 

[theblackwatch]

Get hold of statistics JC and while you are at it WAKE UP ! Many railway employees ate verbally assaulted everyday and when it happens in a confined area (like a train) its even worse! we have zero backup due to the lack of BTP officers (Poorly funded as the officers when they can do a very good job). On a service like the last one from Chester on a Saturday Night back to Piccadilly after Chester Races we have verbal abuse, people vomiting, People missing their stop because they are too drunk too notice and many other things, It seems to me and quite a few people on this forum that you have absolutely NO idea what really happens. SO here's the deal. The Next Last Train from Chester back to Piccadilly you spend the ENTIRE journey and maybe just maybe you will have a real idea of what happens.

It's a pity that the BTP seem totally disinterested in upholding item 4 of the Railway Byelaws which states "No person shall enter or remain on the railway where such person is unfit to enter or remain on the railway as a result of being in a state of intoxication." I had the misfortune of being at York station on Saturday evening, where, as per every Saturday, the great unwashed were heading back north on Grand Central/Trans Pennine/East Coast. Sadly, it seems the Byelaws aren't worth the paper they are written on and it's the rail staff on the ground/train that have to pick up the pieces.

 

[Bellbell]

The Government won against the miners. If sufficiently determined, they could also win against the traincrew.

I would not assume that any action traincrew can take will necessarily prevent a move to DOO. That is a risky assumption.

If the unions and the different grades stick together I think it would be very hard for the government to win against them.

Quite apart from action taken by train crew, I think the general public are starting to wise up to how these things work. I'd hope they'd realise that regardless of what figures show about guards vs BTP salaries etc if they lose the guard it will NOT be because they're being replaced by BTP. They will either be replaced by nothing/no one or by another member of staff without any kind of legal powers but also without safety critical status. And any savings, if they exist, will not be passed on to them.

Just trying to address some of the points raised on the thread, I'm aware we're trying to steer clear of turning this into another DOO thread.

 

[BestWestern]

On many of these "vomit comet" services, two big, burly, thuggish security guards responsible only for ejecting and reporting any passengers who behave in an unacceptable manner would be better value for money than one guard shut in his back cab for genuine fear of assault.

Both would be better, but is it affordable?

A deeply misguided post, for a number of reasons...