Peterborough to Ipswich '"trick"

[F Great Eastern]

A friend has found a way to travel from Peterborough to Ipswich for £13.10 instead of £24 and asked me if it is possible.

Basically normally the fare is
Peterborough to Ipswich - Anytime Single - £24 (No advances or off-peak on this route)

However in the journey planners he can find a loophole to get it down to £13.10
Peterborugh to Manningtree, changing at Stowmarket (which also calls at Ipswich) - £8 Advance
Stowmarket to Ipswich - £5.10 anytime day single.

So therefore he can use the £8 advance ticket between Peterborough and Stowmarket, get off the train at Stowmarket as per advance booking, board the next train to Ipswich and then use £5.10 anytime single to Ipswich from Stowmarket.

Of course it adds on time to the journey, but it's esentially wiping of half the price and it would be impossible to detect?

 

[grumblingalong]

Are they all questions? or statements? i'm confused?

But yes does look like a loophole, I shall email the fares department and have it corrected

 

[LexyBoy]

Opinions differ on this one?

One school of thought says that you are not allowed to start or end short on an Advance? And therefore you must make the full journey from printed origin to destination?

The other (to which I subscribe) says that you may use a combination of tickets to make your journey (NRCoC Condition 19), and that you may not break your journey on an Advance ticket (T&Cs) with BoJ defined as leaving a station (NRCoC Condition 16). In this case you are using a combination of tickets to make the journey; the conditions of the Advance ticket are not being broken.

Likely to cause trouble? No, as you've said it would be virtually undetectable anyway.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I wouldn't be surprised if there were more loopholes like this, and pretty much all of them probably involve Manningtree, because that station has advance fares from a lot of stations on the local lines out of Ipswich, and that is not something relatively new.

Years ago journey planners on routes like this were scheduling change of journeys at Ipswich, which meant you could save even more, since all you needed is some kind of ticket to operate the barriers at Ipswich, Needham Market was common then, as were child tickets etc.

Come to think of it you could do that for this journey as well in two different ways (staying on the train from Peterborough to Ipswich without changing or changing and getting out at Ipswich) although the first is much more risky, even if quicker.

Back to the topic, I think it would not be detectable either, if you get asked for a ticket on the Peterborough to Stowmarket train, you'd show the advance, same if you got asked for a ticket at Stowmarket station and if on the Stowmarket to Ipswich train, the day single, both tickets are valid for the respective train.

 

[grumblingalong]

Back to the topic, I think it would not be detectable either, if you get asked for a ticket on the Peterborough to Stowmarket train, you'd show the advance, same if you got asked for a ticket at Stowmarket station and if on the Stowmarket to Ipswich train, the day single, both tickets are valid for the respective train.

Permission to freak your friend out by noticing next time he has the misfortune of catching a Peterborough conducted by yours truly?

But no honestly, I wouldn't notice nor would my colleagues, we'd see a valid ticket. It is nearly impossible to remember where everyone is travelling to even on a lightly loaded two car and realistically, if a valid ticket has been shown, we would have no reason to query it.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Permission to freak your friend out by noticing next time he has the misfortune of catching a Peterborough conducted by yours truly?

But no honestly, I wouldn't notice nor would my colleagues, we'd see a valid ticket. It is nearly impossible to remember where everyone is travelling to even on a lightly loaded two car and realistically, if a valid ticket has been shown, we would have no reason to query it.

In this case they would be scheduled as part of the advance itinerary to get out at Stowmarket anyway, so no conductor would be any of the wiser as they'd be getting out where they were due to get out to change anyway.

The only possible way a conductor could work out something was amiss is if someone didn't bother with the anytime single, bought a Peterborough to Manningtree advance and didn't get out at Stowmarket and simply got out at Ipswich instead.

 

[grumblingalong]

The only possible way a conductor could work out something was amiss is if someone didn't bother with the anytime single, bought a Peterborough to Manningtree advance and didn't get out at Stowmarket and simply got out at Ipswich instead.

We honestly still wouldn't notice, got bigger things to be worrying about.

 

[LAX54]

Why get off at Stowmarket ? the train goes to Ipswich anyway, so if you have the two tickets, just 'change trains' at Ipswich ?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Why get off at Stowmarket ? the train goes to Ipswich anyway, so if you have the two tickets, just 'change trains' at Ipswich ?

Yes, although there is the possible chance that the Guard will remember that you had an advance ticket to Manningtree changing at Stowmarket and you actually didn't get off where you said you would.

 

[Dai Corner]

Has anyone ever witnessed a guard telling a passenger "I'm sorry Sir, you can't get off here. The terms of the Advance ticket you showed me mean you must take this train to xxxx"

No, I thought not.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Of course it is unlikely, but it is possible, I have seen something similar happen once before.

 

[PeterC]

The itinerary seems a little odd. Is the £8 fare only available with a change at Stowmarket?

A check on timetables suggests that Ipswich is the logical place to change. That would only require a local ticket to operate the gates (I assume Ipswich is gated, the NR website suggests that it is).

 

[F Great Eastern]

The itinerary seems a little odd. Is the £8 fare only available with a change at Stowmarket?

A check on timetables suggests that Ipswich is the logical place to change. That would only require a local ticket to operate the gates (I assume Ipswich is gated, the NR website suggests that it is).

I believe so, previously there were changes at Ipswich in itineraries, but NXEA became wise of the fact that the number of people 'traveling' to Maningtree from branch lines out of Ipswich did not appear to tally with the people who were actually leaving trains at Maningtree.

They were also aware of some odd passenger data from Needham Market, such as very little tickets being bought on train (the station has no TVM), but a large number being bought online which did not correlate with the numbers getting on at the station or being seen by guards.

For a short while because of this until the loophole was closed off, tickets were often checked by inspectors at Ipswich gateline, and at this point Needham Market had a relatively poor service and there were people presenting tickets from there at times well outside the times that trains arrived from there to Ipswich.

---

Just to see how widespread this is in the timetable, I picked a few dates and pretty much every journey in any planner from Peterborough to Manningtree involves either an expensive long detour via London, or a change at Stowmarket.

There are cheap £8/£12 advances on following services from Peterborough, all of which involve changes at Stowmarket

Weekdays
7.50, 9,50, 11.50, 13.50

After the 13.50 the journey planner takes you pretty much always via London, apart from two Stowmarket changes which do not appear to have advance tickets available.

Saturdays
7.50, 9.50, 11.50, 13.50, 15.50, 17.50

After that you are on to via London again or direct trains that don't have Advance.

Sundays
9.50, 11.50, 13.50, 15.47,

After that you are on to via London again or direct trains that don't have Advance.

Be interesting to see if this trick works for other stations between Peterborough and Ipswich and Cambridge and Ipswich for instance, since it would mean that all people from these stations could undercut the advertised fares by quite a bit.

 

[Kite159]

And all of a sudden the advance fare availability from Peterborough to Manningtree mysteriously vanishes...

 

[F Great Eastern]

Still there for me, try another date

Now just saw a first class advance Single for €13. Looks like it's gonna be cheaper to go first class with this trick than it is standard class with a standard buy on the day ticket.

Having messed around with the Cambridge and Lowestoft branches it doesn't really work there because there is no bid disparity between advance prices to Manningtree vs walk up tickets.