Perth Direct Route

[jadmor]

Imagine that the glenfarg route had not been closed in 1970... would it be a possibility that Dundee/aberdeen sevices might be running this way to avoid using the Tay Bridge?

 

[marks87]

Imagine that the glenfarg route had not been closed in 1970... would it be a possibility that Dundee/aberdeen sevices might be running this way to avoid using the Tay Bridge?

Well, it wouldn't be to avoid the Tay Bridge per se, but to avoid the rather scenic detour along the Forth in Fife.

It's a nice idea they've got for re-opening it, has a huge problem in the shape of Glenfarg. The M90 took the only route through, so any re-opening will need substantial engineering.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Well, it wouldn't be to avoid the Tay Bridge per se, but to avoid the rather scenic detour along the Forth in Fife.

It's a nice idea they've got for re-opening it, has a huge problem in the shape of Glenfarg. The M90 took the only route through, so any re-opening will need substantial engineering.

Can they widen the motorway's cutting to run the railway alongside it? I imagine that would be substantially cheaper than trying to carve a completely new route through.

 

[Eagle]

Can they widen the motorway's cutting to run the railway alongside it? I imagine that would be substantially cheaper than trying to carve a completely new route through.

If you've ever driven the M90, you'd know how huge an engineering challenge that would be. The cuttings are already massive, and that's just for a two-lane motorway without hard shoulders. (Also the curviness of the route is an indicator of how difficult the terrain is. It's the only motorway I know of which has sharp bend signs on the mainline.)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's the only motorway I know of which has sharp bend signs on the mainline.

The M60 has a very sharp bend in the Bredbury area for Stockport-bound traffic.

 

[Eagle]

The M60 has a very sharp bend in the Bredbury area for Stockport-bound traffic.

Which is of course caused by the fact you're actually going from the former M66 to the former M63 (both motorways which were originally intended to continue straight at that junction).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Which is of course caused by the fact you're actually going from the former M66 to the former M63 (both motorways which were originally intended to continue straight at that junction).

But that explanation, historically correct as it is, does not address the fact that the northbound M60 carriageway from Stockport to Denton has no such sharp bend on that side of the M60 motorway.

 

[route:oxford]

If you want to improve the service to Perthshire then...

Promote the electrification of the route from Dunblane to Perth.

Enhance the Edinburgh-Dunblane service to every 20 minutes, with one service each hour running to Perth.

Run two daily Pendolino services from Perth to Birmingham

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Had to Google this one as I had no idea where Gelnfarg was. Is this the pass in question?

 

[marks87]

It's the whole stretch from just south of Glenfarg to (going north) just south of Bridge of Earn.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Had to Google this one as I had no idea where Glenfarg was. Is this the pass in question?

If you make the setting "terrain", this will really give you a good idea of the route and the area through which it has to pass.

The railway was known as the Fife and Kinross Railway.

 

[Moonshot]

But that explanation, historically correct as it is, does not address the fact that the northbound M60 carriageway from Stockport to Denton has no such sharp bend on that side of the M60 motorway.

A fact which doesnt need addressing anyway......the sharpness of the bend southbound is mitigated by a 50mph speed limit under camera conditions.

 

[43106]

Run two daily Pendolino services from Perth to Birmingham

A nice idea, but (in the short term) I'd have a service every 6 hours between Perth & Birmingham, but run it via Cumbernauld & Coatbridge (avoiding reversing at Edinburgh, which wastes time). Also, I'd extend one train a day to/from Aberdeen (via Dundee) and another train a day to/from Inverness, using HSTs

Returning to the original subject, closing the link between Dunfermline and Perth was probably a mistake, as Edinburgh - Perth services have to take quite a detour via Stirling (ECML) or central Fife (Ladybank). Also, a town the size of Dunfermline deserve services to towns/cities close by (Stirling via Alloa) and Perth. At present, it just gets a local service to/from Edinburgh, which is woeful.

 

[Northern_Light]

A nice idea, but (in the short term) I'd have a service every 6 hours between Perth & Birmingham, but run it via Cumbernauld & Coatbridge (avoiding reversing at Edinburgh, which wastes time). Also, I'd extend one train a day to/from Aberdeen (via Dundee) and another train a day to/from Inverness, using HSTs

Returning to the original subject, closing the link between Dunfermline and Perth was probably a mistake, as Edinburgh - Perth services have to take quite a detour via Stirling (ECML) or central Fife (Ladybank). Also, a town the size of Dunfermline deserve services to towns/cities close by (Stirling via Alloa) and Perth. At present, it just gets a local service to/from Edinburgh, which is woeful.

Reopening this line would certainly see Dunfermline better connected to surrounding towns, which would surely be a benefit to these places as much as it would be for Dunfermline.

Services between Inverness and Fife/Edinburgh would also see an obvious time saving.

But I fail to see how this line would improve journey times to Dundee and Aberdeen as the Fife route is a good deal straighter. Also, there might be a danger that certain stations on the Fife Circle would see cutbacks to their services.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Reopening this line would certainly see Dunfermline better connected to surrounding towns, which would surely be a benefit to these places as much as it would be for Dunfermline.

Can one of our railway-based QS forum members give us their estimate of reopening the former Fife and Kinross Railway to bring a modicum of reality into the current discussion on this thread. I do take it that this is not a "fantasy" thread ("do not ask for realism, as a refusal often offends"..) where money is no object whatsoever to reinstatement.

 

[tbtc]

Where is there this demand to get from Birmingham to Perth?

Especially for services which avoid Edinburgh and Glasgow?

And why bother electrifying to Perth without going on to Aberdeen/ Inverness (and without wiring through Fife first)?

I agree that Perth doesn't have an amazing service (though probably gets the best frequency that I can remember - I don't think its ever had better than hourly to Edinburgh/ Glasgow before?), but am really not convinced by the suggestions here.

The population between Dunfermline and Perth is pretty negligible (the railway never served Kelty AFAICS), the terrain would be difficult, there's very little space for a railway - the much flatter route is east of the Lomonds which is the way that the current railway goes.

I'm out.

 

[snowball]

If you've ever driven the M90, you'd know how huge an engineering challenge that would be. The cuttings are already massive, and that's just for a two-lane motorway without hard shoulders.

The section without hard shoulders is further south. Its northern limit is at junction 8.

 

[Liam]

Where is there this demand to get from Birmingham to Perth?

Especially for services which avoid Edinburgh and Glasgow?

And why bother electrifying to Perth without going on to Aberdeen/ Inverness (and without wiring through Fife first)?

I agree that Perth doesn't have an amazing service (though probably gets the best frequency that I can remember - I don't think its ever had better than hourly to Edinburgh/ Glasgow before?), but am really not convinced by the suggestions here.

The population between Dunfermline and Perth is pretty negligible (the railway never served Kelty AFAICS), the terrain would be difficult, there's very little space for a railway - the much flatter route is east of the Lomonds which is the way that the current railway goes.

I'm out.

Anything from England to Scotland which doesn't serve Edinburgh or Glasgow would be carrying fresh air.

Euston-Glasgow services North of Preston/Carlisle are pretty empty. In my experience most of the Manchester/Birmingham-Scotland sevices are quiet North of Preston too. Only once has the 3 car 185 been standing up to Edinburgh.

There are some houses, a Sainsbury's and a road embankment built on the former trackbed in Kinross.

 

[mwmbwls]

http://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/n...erth-and-edinburgh-rail-link-up-move-1.172071

“Fresh calls have been made to step up moves for a direct rail link between Perth and Edinburgh.

Mid Scotland and Fife MSP Liz Smith said a feasibility study must be brought forward to examine the cost of the link through Fife to the Fair City.

The move would involve reopening the train station at Kinross — closed when the M90 motorway was built — and Transport Minister Keith Brown has been urged to visit the town to meet campaigners.

Transform Scotland, the national alliance for sustainable transport, has already mooted the possible direct rail clink, claiming it could cut at least 30 minutes off the commute between the two cities.

Ms Smith said she feels the direct rail link could prove a massive boon.

She said: “The reopening a direct rail link could bring many benefits, not only to the local economy in Perthshire and Fife but also in delivering an improved high speed rail network north of the central belt.”

A Scottish Government spokesman said: “Transport Scotland has suggested to Transform Scotland they work with the regional transport partnerships on a new feasibility study to look at all transport modes on the Edinburgh to Perth corridor and we await their response.”

Could the alignment for this route be reinstated easily? Why was it selected for closure in the first place?

 

[steamybrian]

http://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/n...erth-and-edinburgh-rail-link-up-move-1.172071

“Fresh calls have been made to step up moves for a direct rail link between Perth and Edinburgh.
Mid Scotland and Fife MSP Liz Smith said a feasibility study must be brought forward to examine the cost of the link through Fife to the Fair City.
The move would involve reopening the train station at Kinross — closed when the M90 motorway was built — and Transport Minister Keith Brown has been urged to visit the town to meet campaigners.
Transform Scotland, the national alliance for sustainable transport, has already mooted the possible direct rail clink, claiming it could cut at least 30 minutes off the commute between the two cities.
Ms Smith said she feels the direct rail link could prove a massive boon.
She said: “The reopening a direct rail link could bring many benefits, not only to the local economy in Perthshire and Fife but also in delivering an improved high speed rail network north of the central belt.”
A Scottish Government spokesman said: “Transport Scotland has suggested to Transform Scotland they work with the regional transport partnerships on a new feasibility study to look at all transport modes on the Edinburgh to Perth corridor and we await their response.”

Could the alignment for this route be reinstated easily? Why was it selected for closure in the first place?

In my opinion there are other closed lines around the country which have a better chance of reopening and this has been debated previously on this forum. At least there is an approx. train service every hour between Perth and Edinburgh although I agree it does not serve Kinross.

 

[bluenoxid]

I've seen another news site suggest that it would require a four mile tunnel under the M90 and Glenfarg. So that's going to be an interesting one.

 

[jadmor]

Can one of our railway-based QS forum members give us their estimate of reopening the former Fife and Kinross Railway to bring a modicum of reality into the current discussion on this thread. I do take it that this is not a "fantasy" thread ("do not ask for realism, as a refusal often offends"..) where money is no object whatsoever to reinstatement.

The reason for posting this question was that there is a lot of lobbying going on right now for re-oopening this route. Doing so would be a major investment, so I could see a business case being made around using it as the principal route for all northbound express services. There is also the question of the tay bridge from a maintenance perspective.

 

[Class83]

The reason for posting this question was that there is a lot of lobbying going on right now for re-oopening this route. Doing so would be a major investment, so I could see a business case being made around using it as the principal route for all northbound express services. There is also the question of the tay bridge from a maintenance perspective.

Is there a capacity constraint on services north of Edinburgh (other than the Forth Bridge) which would justify spending a lot of money to cut probably 15 minutes off of Edinburgh to Perth Services and probably take longer than the current route from Edinburgh to Dundee.

It's sounds more like an MSP who's trying to get some votes than anything that is ever going to happen. Perhaps some line speed improvements on the current line.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The reason for posting this question was that there is a lot of lobbying going on right now for re-opening this route. Doing so would be a major investment, so I could see a business case being made around using it as the principal route for all northbound express services. There is also the question of the Tay Bridge from a maintenance perspective.

I note your reasons for opening this particular thread, but you have to look back to the strategic transport forward planning that applied at the time when the M90 was deemed to be an essential motorway link through this region of Scotland for both freight and car traffic. If the Scottish Parliament had recently considered the worth of both road and rail traffic requirements, then surely there would have been positive noises made about the reopening of the former Fife and Kinross Railway

It will be therefore interesting to see how this rail reopening project is viewed by the Scottish Parliament. The Borders Railway project currently in the stages of linking the Edinburgh hub to Tweedbank was viewed as meeting area transportation investment, but that was where a major city was a focal point. Look at the line plans on the Border Railway project. It is not an end-to-end double track railway.

I do not wish to rain upon any other forum members parade but do ask that a semblance of financial realism should be part of the debate, where many projects, transport and otherwise, have to all be viewed by the Scottish Parliament.

 

[jadmor]

The two possible justifications for investment would be an improved Edinburgh to Inverness service, and an associated upgrade of the route from Halbeath to Inverkeithing. These measures might bring down journey times by 30 minutes. Personally, I can not see much hope of this happening. It would be more realistic to lobby for electrification of the Fife Circle, and a through service from Dunfermline to stirling.

Does anyone know why British railway closed the route when it had been retained by Beeching? I know the building of the motorway was blamed, but if the route had been kept open the road would have been built anyway.

It was also odd that the alternative route used today via Ladybank was not used until 1975, and then only with a very sparse service.

 

[jopsuk]

Given extending Alloa passenger services to Dunfermline is unlikely to happen until after Stirling/Alloa/Dunblane are electrified, presumably such an extension would have to be (for sanity's sake) electric too- unless the battery powered 379 pilot trial sees useful results? Could the first electric services into Fife in fact come from Glasgow, not Edinburgh?

 

[tbtc]

The two possible justifications for investment would be an improved Edinburgh to Inverness service

There's an hourly service from Edinburgh to Perth at the moment through Fife (plus a token service via Stirling).

To improve the Edinburgh - Inverness service you need to tackle the single track sections north of Perth, which are the reason for the current frequency from the Central Belt to the Highlands.

Any new line from Inverkeithing to Perth (via Glenfarg) wouldn't make much difference.

A line from Inverkeithing to Halbeath has some merit, as a way of speeding up the Edinburgh - Dundee service (avoiding the twists and turns of the costal route through Kinghorn etc), but that's another story.

 

[route:oxford]

I've seen another news site suggest that it would require a four mile tunnel under the M90 and Glenfarg. So that's going to be an interesting one.

4 mile, twin-track, W12 gauge, with electrification. Perhaps a safety tunnel alongside?

That would bring out a lot of spoil.

Any decent minerals in the mountains around there? Useful for aggregates?

 

[matchmaker]

If you've ever driven the M90, you'd know how huge an engineering challenge that would be. The cuttings are already massive, and that's just for a two-lane motorway without hard shoulders. (Also the curviness of the route is an indicator of how difficult the terrain is. It's the only motorway I know of which has sharp bend signs on the mainline.)

The Glenfarg section has hard shoulders.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The only way it would probably ever happen would be as the first stage of HSR to Aberdeen. Otherwise what's the point of building an entirely new InterCity route that is not built for high speed? The journey time saving at standard speed is pretty useless but if built for >250km/h it wouldn't be too shabby at all. If you're going to spend the money of a new tunnelled route then you might as well build it as straight as possible, dual track at GC + electrification gauge and with ETCS signalling.