permitted routes southend central to london terminals

[sonic2009]

what are the permitted routes? im thinking only via barking.. can anyone else shed some light?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If it is 'rte Any Permitted' it is valid by the shortest route (which I presume will be via Barking), on Direct trains (which will be via Barking from Southend Central), and as listed in the Routeing Guide.

Unsuprisingly Southend Central comes under Southend Group in the routeing guide so maps EA and TS may be used. EA gives Southend Victoria to London Liverpool Street. TS gives:

Southend Central-Grays and/or Upminster-Barking-London Fenchurch Street
Southend Central-Grays and/or Upminster-Barking-London Liverpool Street
Southend Central-Grays and/or Upminster-Barking-Gospel Oak-Stratford-West Ham-London Fenchurch Street
Southend Central-Grays and/or Upminster-Barking-Gospel Oak-Stratford-London Liverpool Street
Southend Central-Grays and/or Upminster-Barking-West Ham-London Fenchurch Street
Southend Central-Grays and/or Upminster-Barking-West Ham-Stratford-London Liverpool Street

Unless there is an easement I have missed.

Due to "dual route availability" it is also valid on Underground/DLR services between:

Stratford-Liverpool Street
Upminster-Barking-West Ham-Tower Hill
Lime House-Tower Gateway
On reasonable Underground routes between Highbury and Islington, and Stratford

But only in place of the rail service and not for any intermediate stations (except Barking and West Ham).

 

[yorkie]

Unfortunately a ticket from London Terminals has to be to a named Southend Station.

I recommend purchasing a ticket from alternative origin, it will then be issued to Southend Stations, and the routes should then be as described above by hairyhandedfool into both Liverpool St and Fenchurch St.

For example you could buy from Finsbury Park, Acton Main Line, Clapham Jn, etc. Also Boundary Zone 6 is fine if you purchase a One Day Travelcard for Zones 1-6.

 

[W-on-Sea]

So...do similar restrictions apply to a season ticket for this route (Mine is actually "Southend East to London Terminals")? As well as being valid on c2c trains to Fenchurch Street or the few that go to Liverpool Street, I know that this is valid (or at any rate lets me through the ticket barriers) at the District line tube stations between Upminster and AT LEAST as far west as Bow Road, plus Tower Hill, plus Liverpool Street tube.

Would it be valid to go Liverpool St - Stratford - West Ham - c2c? (Presumably Liv St - Romford - Upminster - c2c is not permitted)

But can I use it on the Gospel Oak line from Barking too? And between Stratford and Gospel Oak on the NLL? And could I use it to alight (ie actually leave the station) at Highbury and Islington?

Or does the routing guide not apply inthe same way to season tickets? (And more to the point, if it does, would any TfL or NR inspectors on any of these routes be familiar with all these routings?)

It would only take a simple leaflet from c2c to make this clear: but as it is they don't even mention that it can be used on the tube between Tower Hill/Liverpool St to Upminster.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Unfortunately a ticket from London Terminals has to be to a named Southend Station.

I recommend purchasing a ticket from alternative origin, it will then be issued to Southend Stations, and the routes should then be as described above by hairyhandedfool into both Liverpool St and Fenchurch St.

For example you could buy from Finsbury Park, Acton Main Line, Clapham Jn, etc. Also Boundary Zone 6 is fine if you purchase a One Day Travelcard for Zones 1-6.

The ticket does have to be to a specific station but it does not limit the options in the Routeing Guide.

The only difference caused by it being to a named station is that the shortest route and direct trains apply only from that station, rather than any Southend Station (Central/Victoria/East). If it was from/to Southend stations the only difference would be that the shortest route and direct trains could also be from Southend Victoria, allowing direct trains to Liverpool Street.

In the Routeing Guide, Southend Central is a member of Southend Group Routeing Point, therefore, unless an easement applies, a 'rte Any Permitted' ticket is valid on all mapped routes from Southend Group Routeing Point, maps EA and TS are applicable.

The only addition this gives to a Southend Central ticket, is Southend Victoria to Liverpool Street (map EA).

So...do similar restrictions apply to a season ticket for this route (Mine is actually "Southend East to London Terminals")? As well as being valid on c2c trains to Fenchurch Street or the few that go to Liverpool Street, I know that this is valid (or at any rate lets me through the ticket barriers) at the District line tube stations between Upminster and AT LEAST as far west as Bow Road, plus Tower Hill, plus Liverpool Street tube.....

Officially it is only valid at West Ham and Barking intermediate stations on the tube.

Season tickets are routed in the same manner as any single or return ticket, where routed 'Any Permitted' they are valid on direct trains, the shortest route and on all mapped routes in the Routeing Guide (unless an easement applies).

.... Would it be valid to go Liverpool St - Stratford - West Ham - c2c? (Presumably Liv St - Romford - Upminster - c2c is not permitted)....

Yes it would, on map TS (through Romford is not on a permitted route via Upminster unless it is on a direct service).

....But can I use it on the Gospel Oak line from Barking too? And between Stratford and Gospel Oak on the NLL? And could I use it to alight (ie actually leave the station) at Highbury and Islington?

Or does the routing guide not apply inthe same way to season tickets? (And more to the point, if it does, would any TfL or NR inspectors on any of these routes be familiar with all these routings?)....

They are on map TS and are therefore permitted routes. When determining permitted routes in the Routeing Guide, you cannot double-back (pass through the same station twice).

....It would only take a simple leaflet from c2c to make this clear: but as it is they don't even mention that it can be used on the tube between Tower Hill/Liverpool St to Upminster.

To be fair it is only valid into Liverpool Street on the tube from Stratford. From Upminster it would be to Tower Hill only (and also Barking and West Ham). Yes a simple leaflet would probably do it, but they don't really want you to see it and they don't want to produce thousands of leaflets which only cost them money.

 

[W-on-Sea]

In the Routeing Guide, Southend Central is a member of Southend Group Routeing Point, therefore, unless an easement applies, a 'rte Any Permitted' ticket is valid on all mapped routes from Southend Group Routeing Point, maps EA and TS are applicable.

The only addition this gives to a Southend Central ticket, is Southend Victoria to Liverpool Street (map EA).
.

But a Southend Central ticket is NOT valid on the line from Southend Vic, except when a specific and temporary easement (because of engineering works or severe delays on the c2c line) has been announced. (And while the ticket does operate the barriers at both Southend Vic and Liverpool Street, it won't at intermediate stations such as Ilford or Romford. Stratford presumably would be OK)

If it were valid on this line, why would anyone buy a ticket from Southend Vic to London, as they are considerably more expensive than those from Southend Central/East?

Officially it is only valid at West Ham and Barking intermediate stations on the tube.

I'm not sure this is the case.

I did read in an old LT/LU document (vintage? can't remember. Late 1980s possibily) that there was full interavailability of tube and rail tickets between Barking and Upminster and all intermediate stations (not sure about those west of Barking apart from Tower Hill and now West Ham). I've certainly never even thought twice about using my season ticket to the tube stations in Dagenham, Hornchurch etc. I presume this was part of the conditions of the transfer of control of that stretch of the district line from BR at the time that the LTS lines were electrified (1961), for all that LT had been providing the local service already since the 1930s. (Logically this would apply as far as Bromley-by-Bow or possibly Bow Road, I think, but have never seen that in writing)

To be fair it is only valid into Liverpool Street on the tube from Stratford. From Upminster it would be to Tower Hill only (and also Barking and West Ham).

Well, LT have and still do refer to the interavailbility of ticketing between Liverpool Street/Fenchurch Street-Upminster, (with the qualification that this interavailbility does not apply at Maryland or Forest Gate - which is slightly academic as no trains from Stratford to Barking stop at those stations), so I'm not sure that is correct.

In a sense it is kind of academic, as if gripped on the tube between Liverpool Street and Barking with such a ticket one would always be on a logical and permissable route either between there and Stratford OR between Tower Hill and Barking in any case.

Yes a simple leaflet would probably do it, but they don't really want you to see it and they don't want to produce thousands of leaflets which only cost them money.

Well, they could print it on some blank space on the season ticket application form, or even the cardboard insert to protect the magnetic strip of the ticket in the ticket wallet! Given the proportion of the income that c2c make from season-ticket holders, it would be great if they properly advertised exactly where they are valid!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But a Southend Central ticket is NOT valid on the line from Southend Vic, except when a specific and temporary easement (because of engineering works or severe delays on the c2c line) has been announced....

Any chance you could say where this is writtten as I can't see it anywhere.

....If it were valid on this line, why would anyone buy a ticket from Southend Vic to London, as they are considerably more expensive than those from Southend Central/East?

Would anyone know to ask?

....Well, LT have and still do refer to the interavailbility of ticketing between Liverpool Street/Fenchurch Street-Upminster, (with the qualification that this interavailbility does not apply at Maryland or Forest Gate - which is slightly academic as no trains from Stratford to Barking stop at those stations), so I'm not sure that is correct....

This is listed in the section for LUL tickets use on NR services, but it does not apply to NR tickets on LUL services.

 

[W-on-Sea]

Any chance you could say where this is writtten as I can't see it anywhere.

I can't immediately find it written anywhere, but I do know a few things from everyday use of the line, living in Southend, and working in London, such as

(a) Whenever one of the lines isn't working, or is severely delayed, etc, announcements are made at stations on that line that tickets are being "passed" on the other line, the clear implication being that this is a special arrangement, and that such interavailbility is not the norm

(b) I've used my c2c London-Southend gold card on countless occasions to buy discounted tickets from the ticket office Southend Vic to stations on the line from there to Liverpool Street (e.g Hockley, Brentwood, Shenfield). If my ticket was valid on the line in any case, the staff would have told me so and not attempted to sell me a ticket (well, unless they were complete swindlers, which I still think is unlikely...)

I think Yorkie once mentioned here that holders of a season ticket for one line are not obliged to pay the full fare to travel from London to Southend on the other, but can get some kind of excess. But I've certainly never seen that publicised and have no idea how that works! Or indeed how any of this relates to the routing guide and rules associated with it .

(c) My ticket does not open the barriers at Ilford or Romford (and I daresay other stations on that line that have barriers); conversely it does open them at every station I've tried (and I have tried most of them by now - on all branches and loops) of the c2c line between London and Southend, as well as at the adjacent District line stations

Would anyone know to ask?

Well, it's common knowledge in Southend that fares on the line from Vic are substantially more expensive than on the c2c line. Which again would implicate the ticket sellers at Southend Victoria in something approaching fraud, surely? (Well, on the other hand, little about rail ticket prices in the UK is logical, so perhaps not. And obviously each flow is allocated to a different TOC, for all that they are both owned by NX)

This is listed in the section for LUL tickets use on NR services, but it does not apply to NR tickets on LUL services.

That may well be so. (The status of Stratford to West Ham seems ambigious too, as the BR line that used to link them no longer exists,and I think the NR journey planner won't send anyone that way on routes where it would be the quickest way) Thanks

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I can't immediately find it written anywhere, but I do know a few things from everyday use of the line, living in Southend, and working in London, such as

(a) Whenever one of the lines isn't working, or is severely delayed, etc, announcements are made at stations on that line that tickets are being "passed" on the other line, the clear implication being that this is a special arrangement, and that such interavailbility is not the norm....

I think that is reasonable to do even if it is valid anyway, irregular travellers might not realise, etc, etc.

....(b) I've used my c2c London-Southend gold card on countless occasions to buy discounted tickets from the ticket office Southend Vic to stations on the line from there to Liverpool Street (e.g Hockley, Brentwood, Shenfield). If my ticket was valid on the line in any case, the staff would have told me so and not attempted to sell me a ticket (well, unless they were complete swindlers, which I still think is unlikely...)....

But still a possibility (even if not deliberate).

....I think Yorkie once mentioned here that holders of a season ticket for one line are not obliged to pay the full fare to travel from London to Southend on the other, but can get some kind of excess. But I've certainly never seen that publicised and have no idea how that works! Or indeed how any of this relates to the routing guide and rules associated with it ....

A route excess would be required if there is a reason for them not to be valid on that line.

....(c) My ticket does not open the barriers at Ilford or Romford (and I daresay other stations on that line that have barriers); conversely it does open them at every station I've tried (and I have tried most of them by now - on all branches and loops) of the c2c line between London and Southend, as well as at the adjacent District line stations....

When I had worked for Thameslink (now FCC), staff were given a pass with a magnetic strip on the back (to open the barriers) valid for use on Thameslink, Thames Trains (now FGW) and Southern. It opened the Thameslink barriers at St Albans, Luton, and Bedford, but wouldn't open the barriers at Brighton, Clapham Junction, East Croydon or London Victoria!

The fact it doesn't open the barriers does not automatically mean it is not valid.

....Well, it's common knowledge in Southend that fares on the line from Vic are substantially more expensive than on the c2c line. Which again would implicate the ticket sellers at Southend Victoria in something approaching fraud, surely? (Well, on the other hand, little about rail ticket prices in the UK is logical, so perhaps not. And obviously each flow is allocated to a different TOC, for all that they are both owned by NX)....

It depends on the knowledge of the staff to a large degree, if they didn't know then they wouldn't pass it on anyway, but if a member of staff at Southend Victoria was asked for a ticket to London they should enquire which way they are going to determine the correct fare to pay, including determining if they wish to walk across the Southend Central. That's part of impartial retailling, but then they may just ask if they are getting the train from there without mentioning Central.

I find it interesting that, if the 'Any permitted' ticket (for whatever reason) is only valid via Barking, they also have a 'rte Barking' ticket for the same price.

 

[W-on-Sea]

Hmm, yes, it's all most odd. And all your points are valid.

I see that (at least) the London Midland website will happily sell a ticket from London to Westcliff via Shenfield (and thus involving a walk from S. Vic to S. Central as part of the journey) for a lower fare than the ticket from London to Southend Vic.

I also see that the c2c ticketing website, as well as advertising "route Barking" and "route any permitted" (for the stations between Southend and Shoebury, I think, only), also gives prices for first class season tickets for routes (like Pitsea or Basildon to London) that are not served by trains with first class seats!

Maybe a FOI request or something to c2c and/or NXEA is in order.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm sure Yorkie will be along later to enlighten us.

 

[sonic2009]

I'm sure Yorkie will be along later to enlighten us.

Ok here's another one for yorkie.. I today used a chafford hundred to liverpool terminals ticket like this..

Fenchurch Street to Chafford Hundred

Rtn Chafford Hundred to Upminster
Upminster to Romford
Romford to Liverpool Street

Let me all through ticket barries including brk of journey @ romford... Is this a permitted rte??

 

[Fred26]

It depends on the knowledge of the staff to a large degree, if they didn't know then they wouldn't pass it on anyway, but if a member of staff at Southend Victoria was asked for a ticket to London they should enquire which way they are going to determine the correct fare to pay, including determining if they wish to walk across the Southend Central. That's part of impartial retailling, but then they may just ask if they are getting the train from there without mentioning Central.

I used to work in the Southend Vic ticket office. When I was there we ran a very smooth operation. The NFM and routing maps were in constant use and it was quite clear to us that a ticket from Southend Vic to London Terminals was valid only into Liverpool Street (likewise for SOC to London Terminals into FST). Also, bear in mind that there are 'Southend Stations' tickets that allow travel on both lines - these are more expensive and for what it's worth I can't recall ever selling a Southend Stations season ticket. At least that's how it was a few years ago...

If someone came up to the ticket office at Southend Victoria and asked for a ticket to Fenchurch Street, obviously we would tell them that we only ran to Liverpool Street and if they wanted Fenchurch Street specifically, they'd have to go to Southend Central (the staff there did the reverse). If someone asked for 'London', the only query would be whether they meant Stratford, Liverpool Street or needed a Travelcard.

 

[yorkie]

I think Yorkie once mentioned here that holders of a season ticket for one line are not obliged to pay the full fare to travel from London to Southend on the other, but can get some kind of excess. But I've certainly never seen that publicised and have no idea how that works! Or indeed how any of this relates to the routing guide and rules associated with it .

Not sure that was me but you may be thinking of Dual Route Availability (see this and this) however I am not aware of an excess for a one-off journey.

 

[W-on-Sea]

No, I'm not thinking of Dual Route Availability: I'll have a dig through the archives later to see if I can find the post I'm thinking of.

 

[yorkie]

Ok here's another one for yorkie.. I today used a chafford hundred to liverpool terminals ticket like this..

Fenchurch Street to Chafford Hundred

Rtn Chafford Hundred to Upminster
Upminster to Romford
Romford to Liverpool Street

Let me all through ticket barries including brk of journey @ romford... Is this a permitted rte??

Yes that's valid, although it's Liverpool Stations rather than Liverpool Terminals (or do you mean London Terminals?)

Romford is a valid Routeing Point for Chafford Hundred as the fare is lower from Romford than from Chafford Hundred.

Routeing Point identifier is here:
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/routeing_point_identifier.pdf

 

[Zoe]

Even Southend Central to Fenchurch Street must have been valid at Liverpool Street (via Barking) when Fenchurch Street used to close late at night.

 

[Fred26]

Even Southend Central to Fenchurch Street must have been valid at Liverpool Street (via Barking) when Fenchurch Street used to close late at night.

Exception to the rule.

 

[yorkie]

Exception to what rule?

That route is within 3 miles of the shortest route, so it is a valid route.
Direct trains are always valid.

Those rules always apply and are no more 'exceptions' than any other rule.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I used to work in the Southend Vic ticket office. When I was there we ran a very smooth operation. The NFM and routing maps were in constant use and it was quite clear to us that a ticket from Southend Vic to London Terminals was valid only into Liverpool Street (likewise for SOC to London Terminals into FST). Also, bear in mind that there are 'Southend Stations' tickets that allow travel on both lines - these are more expensive and for what it's worth I can't recall ever selling a Southend Stations season ticket. At least that's how it was a few years ago....

Well it certainly is good to have someone here who can help enlighten us because even in the original copy of the Routeing Guide Southend Central comes under Southend Group Routeing Point and that is on Map EA and TS. Map EA hasn't changed (for the purposes of this route), map TS has. So was/is there a document somewhere that says a Southend Central/East 'rte Any Permitted' ticket is not valid from Southend Victoria?

Fares wise, to London Terminals currently....

Southend Victoria tickets are 'rte Romford' (the FRPP lists a weekly 'rte Any Permitted' priced by c2c (£92.30), but I think this is an error as it doesn't appear on Fastis).

(Southend Victoria also has 'rte PLUS HIGH SPEED' tickets to St Pancras. These are the only tickets from Southend that are valid on HS1 without an upgrade.)

Southend Stns only has a 'rte Any Permitted' weekly ticket (£92.30)

Southend Central/East have tickets 'rte Barking' and 'rte Any Permitted' both at the same price and cheaper than the rest.

So a ticket from Southend Victoria is not allowed via Southend Central/East. A ticket from Southend Central/East 'rte Barking' is clearly not valid via Romford. So what of the Southend Central/East 'rte Any Permitted' tickets?

....If someone came up to the ticket office at Southend Victoria and asked for a ticket to Fenchurch Street, obviously we would tell them that we only ran to Liverpool Street and if they wanted Fenchurch Street specifically, they'd have to go to Southend Central (the staff there did the reverse). If someone asked for 'London', the only query would be whether they meant Stratford, Liverpool Street or needed a Travelcard.

Well, I'm not sure thats entirely in line with "impartial retailing", but it seems reasonable I suppose.

Even Southend Central to Fenchurch Street must have been valid at Liverpool Street (via Barking) when Fenchurch Street used to close late at night.

Exception to the rule.

Liverpool Street was marked on Map TS with a broken line to Barking and a note saying "limited service" in the original guide, it is now on TS with a solid line from Stratford/Barking.

 

[Fred26]

Like I say, it was a few years ago. It's been that long since I've even looked at a Fares Manual or a route map. I'm not much use to you now, I was just telling you how it was.

Yorkie, that was an exception to the rule. Southend Central to London Terminals tickets were only valid to Liverpool Street if trains were diverted there or if NXEA ('one' as it was) allowed them to be used during disruption/engineering work.
I don't know what's changed since I was there. I don't work for them now, live in the area or regularly use the line(s).

 

[yorkie]

Fred26, You are saying the 'rule' is along the lines of ' Southend Central to London Terminals tickets were only valid to Liverpool Street if trains were diverted there or if NXEA ('one' as it was) allowed them to be used during disruption/engineering work.' ?

Where is this rule documented? If it exists it should be here:

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/easements.pdf

But it does not appear there.

I suspect it does not exist and was made up by a manager at the ticket office. If they are still enforcing this non-existent rule then perhaps we should have a forum meet where we deliberately exercise our right to travel between London and Stratford/Forest Gate at least and arguably Romford and maybe beyond (although I am not totally sure on that, but I find it hard to fault HHF's argument) on a London to Southend Central Any Permitted ticket.

 

[b0b]

Southend Central to Fenchurch Street has to be valid on map TS.

It also must be valid, due to map TS, to travel to Liverpool Street via Stratford by changing at Barking.

This seems like one of the easier RG queries we've had in a while
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
TS also shows Southend to Barking, Stratford and then West Ham to Fenchurch Street .. is there interavailability on the tube/DLR between Stratford and West Ham, or is this a route without train service?

according to this post, its interavailable:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=465888&postcount=5

 

[Fred26]

Fred26, You are saying the 'rule' is along the lines of ' Southend Central to London Terminals tickets were only valid to Liverpool Street if trains were diverted there or if NXEA ('one' as it was) allowed them to be used during disruption/engineering work.' ?

Where is this rule documented? If it exists it should be here:

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/easements.pdf

But it does not appear there.

I suspect it does not exist and was made up by a manager at the ticket office. If they are still enforcing this non-existent rule then perhaps we should have a forum meet where we deliberately exercise our right to travel between London and Stratford/Forest Gate at least and arguably Romford and maybe beyond (although I am not totally sure on that, but I find it hard to fault HHF's argument) on a London to Southend Central Any Permitted ticket.

I haven't got the answers for you. However, I don't know about now, but the staff in Southend Central ticket office used to do the same as we did in Victoria - ie, not allow travel on a ticket from the other station.
It wasn't a rule 'made up by the manager in the ticket office', either. When there was disruption, the message would come from control that we were passing Southend Central tickets. If there happened to be disruption on the GE line, we would usually phone Central to confirm ticket acceptance before sending anybody down there.

Also, we used to audit the RPI books in Southend Vic ticket office (I don't know if they still do, but assume so) and people were always getting fined for using a Central ticket... though that doesn't prove anything.

 

[b0b]

Using a Southend Central ticket at Southend Victoria and vice-versa, if the ticket is specifically printed , is not allowed, as you're not allowed to interchange at the origin or destination routeing group.

(Unless otherwise allowed by the shortest route rule?)

However that does not affect the London Terminals either ticket is valid to in terms of mapped routes, since both stations are members of the Southend Group.

 

[yorkie]

I haven't got the answers for you. However, I don't know about now, but the staff in Southend Central ticket office used to do the same as we did in Victoria - ie, not allow travel on a ticket from the other station.
It wasn't a rule 'made up by the manager in the ticket office', either. When there was disruption, the message would come from control that we were passing Southend Central tickets. If there happened to be disruption on the GE line, we would usually phone Central to confirm ticket acceptance before sending anybody down there.

Also, we used to audit the RPI books in Southend Vic ticket office (I don't know if they still do, but assume so) and people were always getting fined for using a Central ticket... though that doesn't prove anything.

Well you earlier mentioned restrictions at the London end ("Southend Central to London Terminals tickets were only valid to Liverpool Street") now you are telling us that such a restriction isn't the case and you're actually talking about the Southend end?

There is a huge difference between the two.

There is no doubt surely that a ticket from Southend Central is valid into Liverpool Street. However that isn't the same as saying it is valid from Southend Victoria.

 

[Fred26]

I'm aware of that, but a lot of passengers aren't. Many think they can interchange whenever they like, when they just can't.

I was actually saying both, for what it's worth.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Example 1: Southend Victoria - London Terminals

This ticket is not valid from Southend Central.

Example 2: London Terminals to Southend Victoria

This ticket is not valid to Southend Central.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Example 3: Southend Central to London Terminals

This ticket is not valid from Southend Victoria

Example 4: London Terminals to Southend Central

This ticket is not valid to Southend Victoria.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Example 5: Southend Central to London Terminals

May be valid into Liverpool Street after a change at Upminster, Barking, or West Ham.

Example 6: London Terminals to Southend Central

May be valid from Liverpool Street with a change at Stratford or Romford
~~~~~~~~~~~
Example 7: Southend Victoria to London Terminals

May be valid into Fenchurch Street after a change at Romford or Stratford.

Example 8: London Terminals to Southend Victoria

May be valid from Fenchurch Street with a change at West Ham, Barking or Upminster.

~~~~~~~~~~~

The above explains my thinking. For examples 5,6,7 and 8, I'm not sure. It's been a long time since I saw a routing guide.

 

[yorkie]

Fred26: That's fine I am inclined to think you just typed Liverpool St in error, when you meant to put Southend Victoria?

I am inclined to agree that east of Romford/Upminster (or earlier in the case of some tickets) then the tickets are not valid on the alternative route, although HFF does give a good argument, I think B0b is probably right when he says " Using a Southend Central ticket at Southend Victoria and vice-versa, if the ticket is specifically printed , is not allowed, as you're not allowed to interchange at the origin or destination routeing group." this makes sense, although I'd like to see if it is documented anywhere. Or is it just a case of applying common sense?

 

[Fred26]

That line must have come from somewhere. Anyway, this looks like a conclusion to me.

 

[b0b]

yorkie: I'm relying on the GROUP STATIONS instruction on page 6 of the National Routeing Guide Instructions...

GROUP STATIONS
Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities.

This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group.

However, the shortest route from one of the Southend stations must be the shortest, therefore either the Southend Victoria ticket must be valid at Southend Central, or Southend Central at Southend Victoria due to the shortest route rule .... unless there's some exception that says you can't start your journey by walking to another station (?)

(note I'm not considering the +3 mile of shortest due to the fact there's still controversy whether the NRG Detail document should be considered)