Permitted Routes Glasgow-Leeds Via Preston

[Iskra]

So I've booked a 1st Advance ticket from Glasgow Central to Leeds. I have a seat reservation between Glasgow and Preston in first class. I have no reservation from beyond Preston as the vending website told me to use Northern between Preston and Leeds. I have no specific ticket for a Northern service and my 1st class Glasgow-Leeds ticket is labelled 'VWC & connections.' Can I therefore travel from Preston to Leeds via Manchester Piccadilly to a) allow me to use first class on TPE services and b) allow me a first ride on a 350?

 

[yorkie]

You may take "appropriate connecting services".

If you travel via Manchester, there is the possibility that a TPE Guard may question whether it is "appropriate" and internal railway policy (see the Advance Fare FAQ) is that it's not considered appropriate to take a reservable train if you don't have a reservation for it (assuming there's no disruption).

Therefore, I would advise against travelling via Manchester.

Next time, if you wish to travel via Manchester, specify 'via Manchester'.

If you really want to travel via Manchester, and there is a train before your Northern service, there's no harm in asking the Guard prior to boarding. However you would have to do the same at Manchester and if the answer is 'no' you could end up delaying yourself considerably at Manchester until you get a 'yes'! I think some TPE Guards would allow it and some wouldn't.

 

[Iskra]

You may take "appropriate connecting services".

If you travel via Manchester, there is the possibility that a TPE Guard may question whether it is "appropriate" and internal railway policy (see the Advance Fare FAQ) is that it's not considered appropriate to take a reservable train if you don't have a reservation for it (assuming there's no disruption).

Therefore, I would advise against travelling via Manchester.

Next time, if you wish to travel via Manchester, specify 'via Manchester'.

If you really want to travel via Manchester, and there is a train before your Northern service, there's no harm in asking the Guard prior to boarding. However you would have to do the same at Manchester and if the answer is 'no' you could end up delaying yourself considerably at Manchester until you get a 'yes'! I think some TPE Guards would allow it and some wouldn't.

Thanks for your help.

I think I'll try booking an advance between Preston and Leeds via Manchester in order to get that 350.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So I've booked a 1st Advance ticket from Glasgow Central to Leeds. I have a seat reservation between Glasgow and Preston in first class. I have no reservation from beyond Preston as the vending website told me to use Northern between Preston and Leeds. I have no specific ticket for a Northern service and my 1st class Glasgow-Leeds ticket is labelled 'VWC & connections.' Can I therefore travel from Preston to Leeds via Manchester Piccadilly to a) allow me to use first class on TPE services and b) allow me a first ride on a 350?

An interesting one.
I tried putting via Manchester on the VT site and it wouldn't offer any advances for Glasgow-Leeds.
But I then put in via Bolton and it came up with TPE connections from Preston via Manchester (1st class). But they would be 185s.
If you put in via Wigan for the 350s - no advances.
Putting just via Preston brings up the Burnley route.
If it doesn't mention a specific connecting train on your ticket I guess you are free to choose, but I'm no expert on advances.

 

[Iskra]

You may take "appropriate connecting services".

If you travel via Manchester, there is the possibility that a TPE Guard may question whether it is "appropriate" and internal railway policy (see the Advance Fare FAQ) is that it's not considered appropriate to take a reservable train if you don't have a reservation for it (assuming there's no disruption).

Therefore, I would advise against travelling via Manchester.

Next time, if you wish to travel via Manchester, specify 'via Manchester'.

If you really want to travel via Manchester, and there is a train before your Northern service, there's no harm in asking the Guard prior to boarding. However you would have to do the same at Manchester and if the answer is 'no' you could end up delaying yourself considerably at Manchester until you get a 'yes'! I think some TPE Guards would allow it and some wouldn't.

Couldn't I argue it's appropriate as it offers the fastest journey?

An interesting one.
I tried putting via Manchester on the VT site and it wouldn't offer any advances for Glasgow-Leeds.
But I then put in via Bolton and it came up with TPE connections from Preston via Manchester (1st class). But they would be 185s.
If you put in via Wigan for the 350s - no advances.
Putting just via Preston brings up the Burnley route.
If it doesn't mention a specific connecting train on your ticket I guess you are free to choose, but I'm no expert on advances.

They seem to be pricing people off the more direct 350 services for some reason.

- - - - - - -

A Preston-Leeds via Manchester ticket on a 350 is quite expensive so I think I will miss the first Northern service, ask the 350 TPE guard and then if they say 'no' I'll get the final Northern service from Preston.

 

[yorkie]

Couldn't I argue it's appropriate as it offers the fastest journey?

I wouldn't disagree with you if I was a Guard but some would and some wouldn't and you won't know until the day...

They seem to be pricing people off the more direct 350 services for some reason.

I don't think this is deliberate. It's probably not historically a permitted route via Wigan, because the trains didn't used to go that way (or if they did it was very much the exception than the norm).

TPE being required to route their electric trains via Wigan caused all sorts of problems (some of which are only patched with temporary fixes such as easements allowing Route: Bolton tickets to go via Wigan instead of Bolton and other such nonsense) and I believe this is just one such example.

 

[kieron]

An interesting one.
I tried putting via Manchester on the VT site and it wouldn't offer any advances for Glasgow-Leeds.
But I then put in via Bolton and it came up with TPE connections from Preston via Manchester (1st class). But they would be 185s.
If you put in via Wigan for the 350s - no advances.

I wonder if this is because the route via Wigan involves the xx00 Glasgow-Birmingham-London train, and Virgin don't offer as many advance tickets on those as they do on the xx40 trains via the Trent Valley. TPE don't offer any Glasgow-Leeds advance tickets at all.

It may be worth looking at the cost of splitting this ticket at somewhere like Manchester, so that "TPE only" advance tickets become available.

 

[afyutr]

Surely the bottom line is that if it's the fastest route, it is entirely appropriate; in fact, the most appropriate, connection?! I struggle to find how a TOC could get away with arguing against that logic.

 

[island]

Surely the bottom line is that if it's the fastest route, it is entirely appropriate; in fact, the most appropriate, connection?! I struggle to find how a TOC could get away with arguing against that logic.

You've not been around here long, have you

 

[afyutr]

Who wrote the 'common question' bit on that Advance Fare FAQ linked to above, as it contradicts what is actually stated about the Advance "+connections" validity about two paragraphs earlier.

I might seem naive, but given I'd have a print out of a valid itinerary for a "connection" via Manchester it would be ridiculous to be stopped from travelling that way due to some unknown "internal railway policy".

Anyhow I've veered, sorry, just another of those situations to me that would infuriate Mr Normal trying to use the railway.

 

[bb21]

Who wrote the 'common question' bit on that Advance Fare FAQ linked to above, as it contradicts what is actually stated about the Advance "+connections" validity about two paragraphs earlier.

How is it contradictory? If there is something we have missed I will make sure it is changed.

It is the official line from ATOC.

 

[OwlMan]

I might seem naive, but given I'd have a print out of a valid itinerary for a "connection" via Manchester it would be ridiculous to be stopped from travelling that way due to some unknown "internal railway policy".

How do you have a valid itinerary for an advance ticket via Manchester when they are not sold?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

b) allow me a first ride on a 350?

If you are so keen to try a 350, they do run from Glasgow to Preston you know...
No free hot food in 1st though.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Who wrote the 'common question' bit on that Advance Fare FAQ linked to above, as it contradicts what is actually stated about the Advance "+connections" validity about two paragraphs earlier.

I might seem naive, but given I'd have a print out of a valid itinerary for a "connection" via Manchester it would be ridiculous to be stopped from travelling that way due to some unknown "internal railway policy".

Anyhow I've veered, sorry, just another of those situations to me that would infuriate Mr Normal trying to use the railway.

A valid itinerary will be the one that matches your ticket type. When you book that Advance ticket you will be given an itinerary to match it - that is the only valid itinerary for your Advance ticket. Yes Glasgow - Leeds via Manchester may be a valid itinerary with an Off Peak or Anytime ticket, but it will only be valid with an Advance if it gives you that itinerary when you book. You cannot buy an Advance and then use an itinerary for a different ticket type just because you prefer it. It is not internal railway policy.

National Rail Enquiries, public website says:

"When and where the ticket can be used

Tickets are valid ONLY on the date and train service(s) shown on the ticket(s).
Where applicable, you must travel in the Class and reserved seat(s) shown on the ticket(s).
Tickets may only be used on the services of the Train Company (or geographic route where applicable) shown next to ‘Route’ on the ticket.
If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.
You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."

So that is not hidden away internally anywhere. When you book your ticket you get given the itinerary for what you are booking. With an Advance you then do what that itinerary says. If you don't like it, don't buy it, and buy something which better suits your needs or desires.

It is exactly the same as having, for example, a ticket from Manchester to Leeds Route Via Hebden Bridge and then turning up with an itinerary going direct via Huddersfield. The itinerary is correct for a different ticket type, not the one you actually have.

 

[kieron]

Surely the bottom line is that if it's the fastest route, it is entirely appropriate; in fact, the most appropriate, connection?! I struggle to find how a TOC could get away with arguing against that logic.

I don't think anyone has suggested that it is not a valid route, but only that Virgin do not offer advance fares if you select this route.

I don't think this is actually correct, anyway. If I select this search on NRE, the 14:40 departure involves a TPE Glasgow-Manchester Airport train from Carlisle. You can even book it if you use the "buy" link to go through to East Coast (other sites may work, but I only tried them and Virgin).

 

[afyutr]

BB21 - it just appears contradictory in that in one paragraph it says 'any appropriate connection', and then goes on to state that reservable trains are not appropriate. I just think that's confusing, as an appropriate connection could surely be any valid route brought up in NRE to Mr Public? I travel on trains a reasonable amount and I wouldn't have really known you have 'reservable' and 'non-reservable' although it's obvious what it means when pointed out.

OwlMan - There are several advance itineraries available via Manchester according to NRE when I just checked.

If somewhere in the booking it specifically states via Northern then there's no argument; but if it's not on the ticket or denoted by the restriction code how would you know - do you get a specific itinerary when booking through a website? If the ticket arrived and just had +connections on it with no itinerary I just think a layman could be perfectly reasonably expected to take any valid route.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Edit - I'm stood down, I see what you mean about an itinerary and how you always get one when booking an Advanc

 

[yorkie]

BB21 - it just appears contradictory in that in one paragraph it says 'any appropriate connection', and then goes on to state that reservable trains are not appropriate. I just think that's confusing, as an appropriate connection could surely be any valid route brought up in NRE to Mr Public? I travel on trains a reasonable amount and I wouldn't have really known you have 'reservable' and 'non-reservable' although it's obvious what it means when pointed out.

To be fair, this is not just the reservable vs non-reservable argument (for which I do agree with your point!); you're actually taking a different route.

OwlMan - There are several advance itineraries available via Manchester according to NRE when I just checked.

True, but you chose not to book an itinerary via Burnley instead

If somewhere in the booking it specifically states via Northern then there's no argument; but if it's not on the ticket or denoted by the restriction code how would you know - do you get a specific itinerary when booking through a website? If the ticket arrived and just had +connections on it with no itinerary I just think a layman could be perfectly reasonably expected to take any valid route.

I can appreciate your argument, but I don't recommend taking that line of argument. In practice, some staff would allow you to go that way, but not all, and it's not a position I'd want to be in if the answer was 'no'.

 

[OwlMan]

OwlMan - There are several advance itineraries available via Manchester according to NRE when I just checked.

If they are valid for the trains that you are travelling on and the ticket that you have purchased then you can use them, otherwise they are of no use to you.