Permitted routes confusion

[MP]

Hello. I'm new to the forum, but I have been browsing for a while and have learned lots of interesting things. One of the subjects I've been trying to wrap my head around is permitted routes.

I came across a few mentions of a Box Hill-Betchworth season ticket which I found interesting. I've been doing some research on the Routeing Guide, but I'd like you to help me clarfiy a few things if you could.

In principle I pretty much understand why a permitted route would be via Epsom-Norwood Junction-East Croydon-Redhill although the logical (much shorter) way to travel would be to change stations at Dorking. Is the long route allowed because Deepdene isn't accessible? Or is it simply because there isn't a train that physically runs between the two Dorking stations? Are the two stations treated as an interchange station for the purpose of routing or separately as if they could be miles apart with no rail connection?

If one does take the long way around would the ticket allow one to exit/enter the barriers at any of the intermediate stations along the route? I presume the ticket works at the Dorking barriers since this would be the logical transfer point.

What really confused me was when I referred to the "yellow pages" for permitted routes between those stations. Box Hill is in the Leatherhead and Dorking Group. Betchworth is in the Dorking and Redhill Groups. Is it correct to conclude that the reason why the short route (changing stations at Dorking) is permitted is because those stations are both in the same group and the reason why the long route is allowed is because it's permitted between Leatherhead and Redhill? If so, then I get it.

However, what I don't understand are the other permitted routes between Leatherhead (Box Hill) and Redhill (Betchworth). There are four permitted routes:
AR: via Dorking-walk-Deepdene. The obvious route.

XE: via Leatherhead-Epsom-Norwood Junction-East Croydon-Redhill. I can see why that would be permitted especially on accessibility grounds.

The next two I don't completely understand.

HR+LB: These intersect at Mitcham Junction. I presume one is meant to change at Balham to head back down to East Croydon as above. This seems to be out of the way, but I suppose it's the alternative for trains going via Hackbridge from Epsom rather than West Croydon. Is that the rationale?

DK+LB: These intersect at Clapham Junction. Does this actually mean it is permitted to go via Epsom-Wimbledon-Clapham Junction-East Croydon-Redhill? If so, I would like that explained. Is it because two companies serve Box Hill and both need to have permitted routes?

Do these alternatives mean that the ticket would be accepted at all station barriers along all these routes? For instance could one exit at Balham to use the Tube or Wimbledon to watch some tennis?

To add to the confusion when planning the route on NRE via Leatherhead it gives me an option to go via Guildford (for the same fare as the short route via the Dorkings) which using the routing maps available above would either be HR+AR or DK+AR, neither of which are listed as permitted routes on the yellow pages.

I'd really appreciate it if any of you could answer my questions and clarify this for me. I was intrigued by this example, but presumably there are other tickets that permit unexpected routes. Thanks very much.

 

[pne]

Caution: using the routeing guide is more involved than just looking up yellow and pink pages and using the maps.

 

[RJ]

I'd really appreciate it if any of you could answer my questions and clarify this for me. I was intrigued by this example, but presumably there are other tickets that permit unexpected routes. Thanks very much.

You can say that again.

Just be mindful that if two stations share a routeing point, only the shortest route between them is permitted.

 

[ASharpe]

Just be mindful that if two stations share a routeing point, only the shortest route between them is permitted.

What if there is a route shorter than that?

 

[Merseysider]

What if there is a route shorter than that?

The shortest route is always permitted. Subject to there not being any nasty negative easements, routes up to 3 miles longer are okay too. These factors apply even if there is a common routeing point.

 

[SickyNicky]

What if there is a route shorter than that?

That's an interesting question. The "shortest route" can be determined by looking at the timetable and finding the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services. This clearly cannot include a walk.

So the question is, when walking (which is defined as zero-distance in the programming manual for routeing engines), leads to a route that's shorter than the shortest route by rail, is this a valid route? Common sense says yes, and booking engines should allow this route without any reference at all to the routeing guide. That's why you're seeing both routes offered in journey planners.

This can lead to anomolies where the journey is clearly expected to have a walk in it, but where the shortest route by rail alone is rather convulted.

Nothing in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage stops you from breaking your journey if you have a ticket that permits it and are following a permitted route (remember, the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services is always permitted). However, gateline staff at intermediate stations may take some convincing, and you may expect a number of problems such as refusal of passage through gatelines, attempts to charge you for a new ticket, a penalty fare or even an attempt to prosecute you.

If you are prepared to fight these battles, go for it!

 

[RJ]

That's an interesting question. The "shortest route" can be determined by looking at the timetable and finding the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services. This clearly cannot include a walk.

So the question is, when walking (which is defined as zero-distance in the programming manual for routeing engines), leads to a route that's shorter than the shortest route by rail, is this a valid route? Common sense says yes, and booking engines should allow this route without any reference at all to the routeing guide. That's why you're seeing both routes offered in journey planners.

This can lead to anomolies where the journey is clearly expected to have a walk in it, but where the shortest route by rail alone is rather convulted.

Nothing in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage stops you from breaking your journey if you have a ticket that permits it and are following a permitted route (remember, the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services is always permitted). However, gateline staff at intermediate stations may take some convincing, and you may expect a number of problems such as refusal of passage through gatelines, attempts to charge you for a new ticket, a penalty fare or even an attempt to prosecute you.

If you are prepared to fight these battles, go for it!

Fully agreed and a good contextual definition of the shortest route. Plenty of instances where the shortest route rule allows for very circuitous routes which can be used as loopholes. In some cases however, TOCs have pre-empted this and there is no Any Permitted fare - only one fare with a route restriction that forbids use of the shortest route.

 

[pne]

In some cases however, TOCs have pre-empted this and there is no Any Permitted fare - only one fare with a route restriction that forbids use of the shortest route.

I thought it’s not possible to forbid travel by the shortest route, and that any ticket from A to B is automatically allowed on the shortest route—that the routeing guide only ever gets consulted as to whether a given route is Permitted or not if you want to take a non-shortest route.

Or in other words, the shortest route is not allowed because it is Permitted by the routeing guide, but by a ‘higher law’ as it were; it needs no Permission.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought it’s not possible to forbid travel by the shortest route, and that any ticket from A to B is automatically allowed on the shortest route—that the routeing guide only ever gets consulted as to whether a given route is Permitted or not if you want to take a non-shortest route.

Or in other words, the shortest route is not allowed because it is Permitted by the routeing guide, but by a ‘higher law’ as it were; it needs no Permission.

Correct. But if there is a route on the ticket that *does* override the shortest route.

Neil

 

[Paul Kelly]

To give a practical example of what RJ meant - the shortest route from Shipley to Bradford Interchange is via Leeds, but in practice you can't make that journey because all fares are routed "NOT VIA LEEDS": http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=SHY&dest=BDI

 

[bb21]

Shipley Yorks - Bradford Yk Stns (not Bradford Interch) via Leeds is debatable.

Frizinghall - Halifax would be a better example I think.

 

[pne]

Wow! I didn’t know that that was possible.

(And how are tickets from Frizinghall to Halifax supposed to be used? Via Lancaster and Preston?)

 

[ASharpe]

(And how are tickets from Frizinghall to Halifax supposed to be used? Via Lancaster and Preston?)

Certainly not - as there is a train on Sundays between Hellifield and Blackburn. But I'm not even sure that route would be a valid one.

Edit: I'll also add that I often buy a Halifax to Bingley ticket (Any Permitted), it's a few pence cheaper than a ticket for a shorter journey.

 

[furlong]

But if there is a route on the ticket that *does* override the shortest route.

I, for one, disagree with that - the best you might say is that it is just one of many grey areas in the system. (Recall ATOC's statement that "The routes 'London' and 'not London' are not necessarily mutually exclusive.") I also hold the view that walking interchanges published in the National Rail Timetable may form part of the shortest route ("If your journey requires a transfer"), and also that journeys might be required to begin with these transfers. (Bradford is not currently listed.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I, for one, disagree with that - the best you might say is that it is just one of many grey areas in the system. (Recall ATOC's statement that "The routes 'London' and 'not London' are not necessarily mutually exclusive.")

That's not quite the same thing, but just the usual policy that the most expensive ticket is in practice generally accepted via the routes on all the cheaper ones of the same ticket type. (Technically a zero-fare excess is required, but the railway doesn't like those).

But other than that (and as routed tickets tend to be cheaper) I would see it as pretty obvious that a routed ticket must be used via the place listed on it regardless of any other rules, and good luck arguing otherwise with any staff.

Of course the most sensible way to deal with this is that the Any Permitted ticket is the most expensive one, and if there isn't one one should be added, but that's no small piece of work.

Neil

 

[greatkingrat]

So you think a London - Reading rte Staines ticket is valid from Paddington because it is the shortest route?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you think a London - Reading rte Staines ticket is valid from Paddington because it is the shortest route?

It might be (in a practical sense, avoiding zero fare excesses) if and only if London-Reading via Slough is cheaper. Other than that it is indeed not.

Neil

 

[MP]

I appreciate the responses so far, but I am only slightly less confused about the routes in my original post.

I'm aware of the shortest route rule, the 3-mile rule and the fare-check rule. What I don't understand is why there are permitted routes in the yellow pages for the station pairing in my OP that seem to violate these rules. For example DK+LB is either via Clapham Junction or Horsham. They're both longer and priced higher than the direct route which includes a walk between Dorking stations yet is shown as a permitted route in the yellow pages. Why? I can't see any scenario where it would be a permitted route using the above rules.

Also, why isn't there a permitted route listed in the yellow pages that's shown on NRE as an optional journey via Guildford. That route has the same fare as the shortest route which includes the walking interchange, and the long way around via East Croydon. Permitted route AR comes closest to the via Guildford route, but it's missing the section between Leatherhead and Effingham Junction.

The rules, tables and journey planners seem to contradict each other, but I must be missing something.

 

[najaB]

What I don't understand is why there are permitted routes in the yellow pages for the station pairing in my OP that seem to violate these rules.

Because someone decided to add them as a permitted routes.

 

[ASharpe]

OK, here is something I have been wondering about:

Would a Bradford Yorks to London (Via Manchester) Return ticket be valid on a Grand Central Train?

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=BDI&dest=KGX

The via Manchester fare is much more than the GC only fare, but slightly less than the cheapest any permitted.

And some follow up questions:
Is a Bradford to London Any permitted super off-peak Return ticket valid via Manchester?

Presumably an off-peak any permitted Return would certainly be ok via Manchester?

How about using an Anytime any permitted Return ticket on a train from Manchester to London that would be considered off-peak?

I've been a bit confused by these fares for a few weeks since I noticed them and I would be good if you could clear it all up for me. Sorry if this deserved its own thread.

 

[Merseysider]

Manchester is not on a permitted route from Bradford to London. Therefore, an Any Permitted ticket can only be used via Manchester if it is the same price or more expensive than the Via Manchester fare for the appropriate ticket type.

For the Off-Peak return, this is fine (£169.50 Any Permitted v £104.80 Via Manchester).

For the Anytime Return, nope. (£256 Any Permitted v £352 Via Manchester). This would be subject to an excess.

The Super Off-Peak Any Permitted ticket would be valid via Manchester if used at a time when the Off-Peak Via Manchester would be valid (subject to a zero-fare excess which probably won't be bothered with).

The Anytime Any Permitted ticket would be valid via Manchester if used at a time when the Off-Peak Via Manchester would be valid, again subject to a zero-fare excess.

You could also use the Anytime Via Manchester ticket not via Manchester, at any time.

Ain't simplification great.

 

[furlong]

So you think a London - Reading rte Staines ticket is valid from Paddington because it is the shortest route?

I'd conclude 'most likely not', but that's also a (different) grey area.

 

[FenMan]

A good example is Blackwater to Basingstoke.

The shortest route by rail is via Reading.
There is, in mileage terms, a shorter route via Farnborough North/Farnborough Main that involves a 20 minute walk.

An Any Permitted ticket is not offered, just Via Reading and, at lower prices, Via Farnborough North.

Whereas the only Blackwater to Woking ticket offered is Any Permitted.

The shortest route by rail is via Guildford.
Two shorter routes involving walks are also permitted:-
Via Farnborough North / Farnborough Main
Via North Camp / Ash Vale

 

[jkdd77]

Manchester is not on a permitted route from Bradford to London. Therefore, an Any Permitted ticket can only be used via Manchester if it is the same price or more expensive than the Via Manchester fare for the appropriate ticket type.

For the Off-Peak return, this is fine (£169.50 Any Permitted v £104.80 Via Manchester).

For the Anytime Return, nope. (£256 Any Permitted v £352 Via Manchester). This would be subject to an excess.

The Super Off-Peak Any Permitted ticket would be valid via Manchester if used at a time when the Off-Peak Via Manchester would be valid (subject to a zero-fare excess which probably won't be bothered with).

The Anytime Any Permitted ticket would be valid via Manchester if used at a time when the Off-Peak Via Manchester would be valid, again subject to a zero-fare excess.

You could also use the Anytime Via Manchester ticket not via Manchester, at any time.

Ain't simplification great.

I thought the fares check rule applied using single tickets only, even where the ticket purchased is a return ticket?

 

[Merseysider]

I thought the fares check rule applied using single tickets only, even where the ticket purchased is a return ticket?

This isn't a fares check per se, it's about determining routes of validity in relation to the price paid. In general, if a higher price is paid for a through ticket with multiple route options, that ticket is also valid on any route not more expensive.

This is because when travelling on a different route to that paid for, the difference in price is paid to enable validity. Lower price means nothing to pay.

The fares check rule is something separate, and used to determine appropriate routeing points for stations.

 

[ASharpe]

In general, if a higher price is paid for a through ticket with multiple route options, that ticket is also valid on any route not more expensive.

Can you confirm if this also applies when the cheaper fare is an operator restriction and not a route restriction? As in my example of Bradford to London on Grand Central with a via Manchester ticket.

 

[Merseysider]

Can you confirm if this also applies when the cheaper fare is an operator restriction and not a route restriction? As in my example of Bradford to London on Grand Central with a via Manchester ticket.

I think you'd get a perplexed look, for a start

The Routeing Guide states:

Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies.

As a TOC restriction doesn't signify a (geographical) permitted route, I don't believe this would be within the scope of such a principle.

Certainly, you wouldn't be able to excess a route GC Only ticket to a Via Manchester ticket because GC don't run through Manchester and excessed tickets retain their operator restriction, so you'd effectively have a useless ticket.

But the other way around? Firstly, it would depend on whether "computer says no" or not.

The (old) Manual had this to say on the matter:

Single tickets
Charge the difference between the price already paid and price of the cheapest Single ticket, available for immediate travel, that allows the customer to travel on the route and Train Company of their choice
...
Reference to 'appropriate fare' means the cheapest Single or Return fare available for immediate travel on the chosen service.

So theoretically one could argue that an excess from Via Manchester to GC Only would be allowed. This information isn't publicly available however and there isn't a clear-cut answer in the public domain as far as I can tell.

 

[ASharpe]

Thanks JakeF, I think I'm beginning to understand how route restrictions work. Some of the details have been confusing me for a while.

 

[Merseysider]

Thanks JakeF, I think I'm beginning to understand how route restrictions work. Some of the details have been confusing me for a while.

We all start somewhere

The forum's comprehensive Fares & Ticketing Guide is probably the best source of information on the internet, so definitely worth a look.

 

[MP]

Because someone decided to add them as a permitted routes.

I'd like to think there's a more rational reason than that. It doesn't seem anyone has an answer for this.