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Permitted Connecting Times Between Stations
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Delay Repay "rights" are based on your arrival time at your ultimate destination compared to the itinerary which the railway provided.
Connecting faster than the minimum connection time and catching an earlier train is a bonus.
If you catch the train 30 minutes before the one on your itinerary and it is delayed by 25 minutes then you are still 5 minutes early.
As above, you weren't late home.
It's because people want to find loopholes and unusual interpretations which are advantageous to them.
I don't understand the issue. The railway gives you an itinerary for your journey which shows when you will leave your origin and when you will arrive at your destination. If you arrive earlier than that, bonus. If you arrive later than that, you might get some compensation. It really isn't very complicated.
redreni
Established Member
You're only thinking about certain use cases for the railway.
At least 95% of my rail journeys are between my home and my office or to my football team's home games. The railway doesn't give me an itinerary for these journeys as I pay either by Contactless or by 7-day season, or when going to the football I usually make a non-stop split, so the journeys are not booked and it isn't possible to get an itinerary at time of payment.
The railway also pads out the minimum connection times to a ridiculous extent. If the MCTs reflected reality then I wouldn't take the route I do. If trains run to the timetable Monday to Thursday and it consistently takes me 38 minutes station to station, then on Friday trains do not run to the timetable and it takes me an hour, the railway would have you believe I have only been delayed by 12 minutes. It can only reach that conclusion by making a series of assumptions which *might* be reasonable for planning purposes, but are demonstrably incorrect under the circumstances of the delay in question.
If defining legs as separate journeys is a loophole, so is padding out the MCTs such that what is described as a 15 minute delay compensation scheme actually, by design in many cases, disregards really significant, repeated delays that are caused by late running and cancellations. The demonstrable difference between the MCT and reality offsets the delays and brings them under the threshold.
zwk500
Veteran Member
For you as an individual maybe.
Haywain
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I've made that interchange in under 10 minutes regularly over the years, on occasions when it wasn't crucial that I make the second train, but I wouldn't want to buy tickets with an itinerary giving so little time.
I recall that some booking engines implement a reduced minimum connection time lower than the official rules for this connection, although I can’t remember what figure they use. Or my memory is faulty, of course.
EDIT See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/split-ticket-delay-rights.286860/post-7302657
EDIT See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/split-ticket-delay-rights.286860/post-7302657
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spyinthesky
Member
I feel that is too much but if I was travelling with my mother it might not be enough.
We have to cater for the less able.
zwk500
Veteran Member
No, but that individual case should be reviewed as King's Cross-St Pancras (together with Euston) is a bit of a special case.
However, if we take Stratford as an example: 1 minute to get off the train + 1 minute to use the lift + 2 minutes to walk across the bridge at a normal pace with luggage + 1 minute to get down to the platform + 1 minute before departure time for boarding and despatch = 6 minutes. The connectional allowance is 7, so you've got one minute spare in case you need to stop and check the signs to find your way at what is a very complicated station.
A practiced user on their regular commute might well be 2 or 3 times faster than the connectional allowance. That doesn't make it unreasonably slow.
No! That is what the "additional time to change trains" options are for! It is the *minimum* connection time
This is obviously not the case given that not all journeys involve being provided with an itinerary.
Haywain
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Journeys that do not involve a change of trains have an itinerary which is defined by the timetable.
Which doesn't contradict what I said given that - and I don't think this will come as news to you - a significant number of journeys do involve a change of train.
And Stratford isn't known for having a reasonable layout, so a new traveller being punished for a low connection time and a poorly designed station would very much discourage them from using the railway.
zwk500
Veteran Member
But all journeys *do* involve a departure time.
Obviously, but that doesn't constitute an itinerary being provided.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
All journeys have an itinerary which can be found by inputting your origin and destination and the time you wish to leave. Up to you whether you choose to obtain one or not, but the itinerary is provided.
Falcon1200
Established Member
Minimum connection times have to take account of everybody! Not just those of us who are familiar with stations, can use systems such as Realtime Trains to establish when and where our next train will be, and can move briskly and confidently to our next service.
redreni
Established Member
The less able have nothing whatever to do with whether or not somebody has been delayed by the late running or cancellation of a train.
Remember, we're not talking about people wanting a guaranteed connection and all the rights to alternative transport or overnight accommodation in the event of disruption which come with that. Everyone accepts those rights are subject to the intended journey respecting the MCTs.
We're talking about somebody wanting to point out that they did make an unofficial connection - or would have done had the second train run as timetabled - and therefore wouldn't be entitled to any delay repay compensation if the rest of the journey ran as per the timetable whether or not any previous part of their journey had been delayed. The corollary of which is that if the rest of the journey doesn't run as per the timetable then that passenger has been delayed. If the operator of that train wants to avoid liability for delay repay for people who are present at the station before that train is due to leave, intend to catch it and hold a valid ticket, they could always run said train on time, or within 14 minutes. I'm not sure I understand all the hand-wringing about this being terribly unfair on the operator, here?
Well count yourself lucky certain TOC seem to think the MCT also simultaneously stands for maximum connection time.
If you did not get what they think is possible then tough, you should have been able to get it and what actually occured with tracked timings is poo-poo-ed and thrown in the bin
If you did not get what they think is possible then tough, you should have been able to get it and what actually occured with tracked timings is poo-poo-ed and thrown in the bin
Joe Paxton
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To go back to the OP's issue...
For a Paddington - Stratford - Wickford journey, where the Stratford to Wickford (Greater Anglia) journey has been delayed, I think it'd be fine to claim Delay Repay for the Stratford-Wickford leg. I think it's what I'd do, and I wouldn't regard it as being fraudulent.
For a Paddington - Stratford - Wickford journey, where the Stratford to Wickford (Greater Anglia) journey has been delayed, I think it'd be fine to claim Delay Repay for the Stratford-Wickford leg. I think it's what I'd do, and I wouldn't regard it as being fraudulent.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
If you put your origin and destination into the journey planner you get an itinerary.
If you make an unofficial connection then brilliant, it’s a bonus. If you don’t, you don’t.
But if you make the unofficial connection 30 minutes earlier and that train is delayed by 20 minutes, you’re still 10 minutes early.
London shows some extended connections because of the way it is calculated- the minimum connection time in the first station, plus the fixed tube/walk connection time, plus the minimum connection time in the second station.
It’s why the minimum connection time between King’s Cross and St Pancras is as long as it is. It is calculated as 15 minutes at King’s Cross and 15 minutes at St Pancras. The walking time between the stations is calculated as only 1 minute.
But are they ridiculously long? If you’re fit and healthy and not carrying luggage and you know where you’re going then perhaps. But if you have limited mobility or if you have small children or if you have a lot of luggage suddenly the ridiculously long connection time isn’t quite so long at all.
Connection times from Paddington haven’t been updated to reflect Crossrail. The fixed connection time is 57 minutes from Paddington to Stratford, plus 15 minutes at Paddington and 7 minutes at Stratford. Clearly that is ridiculous now with Crossrail, but in the days before Crossrail it probably wasn’t quite so ridiculous.
Joe Paxton
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The OP's second post states the journey they were having DR trouble with was Pad-Stratford-Wickford, so the 'connection time' at Paddington isn't relevant. Given their profile suggests they reside in Essex I'd guess the journey in question was the return leg heading home.
If the ticket they held was instead issued to Zone U12 London, i.e. Underground/DLR zones 1&2 (which I note costs less than £1 over the 'straight-up' fares from Wickford-Paddington), then I don't think there'd be any great debate about this particular matter?
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Where in the 'rights' is that documented ? There is no reference to "itineray" in the Greater Anglia Delay Repay scheme as documented in their Passenger's Charter.
The relevant section is:
The OP boarded a GA train with a valid ticket and was delayed whilst travelling with them. In such circumstances GA are clear that you can claim compensation.
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The Elizabeth Line introduces some interesting situations. Let's consider Paddington to Stratford. Minimum connection time is:
Paddington 15 mins
Tube connection 57 minutes
Stratford 7 mins
Total 79 minutes
However now we have the Elizabeth Line with a timetabled service you can obtain an interchange consisting of:
Paddington 15 mins
PAD-SRA 18 mins as per timetable
Stratford 7 mins
Total 40 mins
Note that trains in the opposite direction are timetabled to take a couple of minutes longer so a SRA to PAD connection won't be 40 minutes.
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redreni
Established Member
That's not part of the process of paying for and making the journey in this case, though, that's my point. I'm normally doing one of three things:
1. Buying a 7-day season ticket for the coming 5 working days of travel. If I bought that from a ticket office, they wouldn't give me an itinerary. When I buy it from the LNER website or app, it doesn't give me an itinerary. Itineraries are not part of the process for buying and using this type of ticket.
2. Contactless PAYG. Itineraries are not part of the process of buying the ticket. You can use a journey planner if you want, but you don't need to.
3. While holding a 7-day Travelcard, making a journey that requires an extension ticket and using it on a fast train which doesn't call at the split point. If I buy the extension ticket from a ticket office, it doesn't give me an itinerary. If I buy it from the forum's site it tells me to use a train that calls at the split point and won't give me an itinerary for the journey I actually intend to make using the trains I want to use. The only way I know to get an accurate itinerary from a retailer that reflects my intentions for part of my intended journey (or maybe it's an separate journey - who knows?) is by buying the extension ticket from Avanti by typing Boundary Zone 6 as the origin, in which case it generally offers me journey planner results that include the fast trains out of Paddington. It is impossible, however, to get an itinerary from a licensed retailer issued in conjunction with my ticket, that reflects my intended journey.
(3) is maybe a niche case (though not really, in London). (1) and (2) are both extremely common - almost every passenger on most commuter trains in London will be doing one of those things. They haven't made a booking and been issued an itinerary. And if they normally get home at 7pm then one day they leave the office at exactly the same time at 7.25pm, they are in reality reasonably entitled to consider that they have been delayed by 15-29 minutes. That's why this forum is full of threads like this one where
forum members have to explain to people why, according to the railway, some of that delay somehow isn't real.
I accept this is how the railway sees it. Hence the discussion about how much flexibility there is to define what journey or journeys you are making within the validity of your ticket, and which of these you can claim for.
The fixed link between Paddington and Stratford is, these days, only used by journey planners when the Elizabeth Line isn't running. Ergo it need not be updated. When the Elizabeth Line is running it would be the MCT for Paddington (but the OP started her journey there so it wouldn't apply), then a timetabled Elizabeth Line service to Stratford, then the MCT for Stratford if transferring to another timetabled service there. The OP's issue is she knows where she's going and doesn't require 7 minutes to make that particular connection.
Although I do think many MCTs are ridiculous, Stratford isn't. But there's a further issue - separate from whether the MCTs are overly padded or not - which is that assumptions about what connections are possible, or not, are allowed to trump the actual verifiable fact of the matter that a connection is possible, because it happened. As in this case. An assumption is fine for planning, but it's not as good as reality for working out compensation after the fact, and the railway only uses it because it likes to get out of paying for delays actually incurred.
Joe Paxton
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Furthermore, the initial 15 mins of connection time at Paddington isn't relevant if that's where the journey begins...
...if so, that'd take your first figure down to 64 minutes, and the second figure down to 25 minutes.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Yep, agreed. The issue is that the connection time hasn’t been updated to reflect Crossrail. 57 minutes probably wasn’t that far wrong back when it was a slow trundle along the Bakerloo and the Central lines. Now it is way too much.
redreni
Established Member
No good journey planner would give you a tube transfer Paddington to Stratford at a time when the Elizabeth Line was open. Elizabeth Line trains are in the National Rail timetable.
Conversely if there is a scheduled closure of the Elizabeth Line core, people do have to make a tube transfer and the transfer time is about right.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Lets take it back to basics.
The NRCoT states:
Compensation is based on the delay in your arrival time at the destination station, as compared to the arrival time shown in the timetable in place on the day that you travel.
The minimum connection times are part of the timetable, and so apply where you use two or more trains to complete a journey. It is more than an assumption.
In some cases you will be able to beat the minimum connection time, whether that's because you can walk/run faster than the MCT calculation considers or because the minimum connection time is overly padded. Sometimes it may even be because the train was delayed and, had it been on time, you'd have missed it.
But that doesn't really matter. The timetable is based on the minimum connection time. If you beat it then that's brilliant, its a lovely bonus and everyone is happy. But, for example, if you catch a train 30 minutes ahead of the one that the timetable says you would catch then, if that train is 20 minutes late, you are not delayed. You are 10 minutes early.
That's not to say its not annoying/frustrating to only be 10 minutes early when you hoped to be 30 minutes early and where you would usually be 30 minutes early, but you are still early.
Thanks, I wasn't sure how it worked with Crossrail given its (unnecessarily) ambiguous status through the core. They are National Rail services so the two minimum connection times at Paddington and/or Stratford (depending on origin and destination) would still apply.
In the absence of a specific definition in the NRCoT, you would take the dictionary definitions: journey is the act of travelling from one place to another, origin is the place where it began and destination is the place where someone is going.
In the OP's example, I do not see how they can legitimately argue that their origin was not Paddington or that their destination was not Wickford. There will be situations where perhaps they could, e.g. if they did an hour's shopping at Westfield before getting the train to Wickford.
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